Totally Depraved, When?

[Ormly]

When reading Romans 1, I find this passage pertaining men after Adam's transgression: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28 (KJV)

It would seem God was striving with man and we know a some point before Noah built the ark, God quit striving with man, as evidenced by the flood.

My question is why was God striving with all of mankind, we are told by traditional reform folk, who were 'totally depraved' could never, of their own capability, respond? I guess my second question would be to ask" If man did ever become 'totally depraved', when was it that he became so?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

When reading Romans 1, I find this passage pertaining men after Adam's transgression: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" Romans 1:28 (KJV)

It would seem God was striving with man and we know a some point before Noah built the ark, God quit striving with man, as evidenced by the flood.

My question is why was God striving with all of mankind, we are told by traditional reform folk, who were 'totally depraved' could never, of their own capability, respond? I guess my second question would be to ask" If man did ever become 'totally depraved', when was it that he became so?

After the Fall.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

After the Fall.

-CryptoLutheran

When, after the fall, inasmuch as we find many passages where men turned to God or were righteous__ who worshiped God, who God favored and were blessed by Him? Begin your investigation/explanation with Cain and Abel. Please explain how it was God even spoke to Cain to warn him if it were not possible for Cain to repent. <change his ways> Thank you.

 

[Ormly]

After the Fall.
"The Church is a harlot, but she is also my mother." - attributed to St. Augustine of Hippo

Crypto, Brother, I would be careful with embracing that blasphemous remark by Augustine. The Church of Jesus Christ is NO harlot. Obviously he is referring to the RCC but, by his upbringing, is not able to make proper distinctions. However, and by his ignorance, by implication, ["C"] he cannot help but 'cause' it to mean the whole, truly universal, CHURCH of Christ. I pity him.

 

[Julian of York]

Sir,
Read on a little farther in Romans.
"As it is written, there is none righteous,no not one.There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable.There is none that doeth good, no, not one."Romans 3:10-12
The Bible is very clear on this point.When it says none righteous, none understandeth,no one seeketh after God,all (which in the English means "ALL") are out of bounds,and together unprofitable.None do good,not even one, that's what it means.
Further in the chapter we see:
"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood.Destruction and misery are in their ways.And the way of peace have they not known.There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:14-18
Sounds like a description of depravity to me.

The truth is, Ormly, depravity is still "in effect". It did not end with the flood,or with any other event in history. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All means everybody, and includes me (Oh,how well I know it! Sin and depravity are ever at the door of the heart,wanting in) and you,too,Ormly.

I do not expect these comments to be well received. In Luke chapter 4, Christ pointed out depravity amongst people of His own home area, and they sought to throw Him headlong from the cliff. It says they were filled "with great wrath." Depravity, I believe, is ever present in the best of Christians,ready to rear it's ugly head. Not to condemn you to Hell...no,that is not possible for the true Children of God. But to ruin your life and fellowship with Christ.
WARNING! Don't do it, but I think you could take the "Safe Search" off your computer right now,and going to almost any search engine, you could see unbelieveable depravity.And not only that, if you sit and watch it, your depraved soul will LIKE IT! WARNING!

So,when did depravity start? See Genesis. When will depravity end? See Revelations. When God wipes away all our tears, He is wiping away the depravity which is finally finished, thanks to the Blood of the Lamb that was Slain.Nothing causes more tears in the heart of the Converted than their continued ability,nay, desire, to fulfill the lusts of their depraved flesh.

Written in Love,
Julian of York
"And the work of righteousness shall be peace.And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever." Isaiah 32:17

 

[Ormly]

Sir,
Read on a little farther in Romans.
"As it is written, there is none righteous,no not one.There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable.There is none that doeth good, no, not one."Romans 3:10-12
The Bible is very clear on this point.When it says none righteous, none understandeth,no one seeketh after God,all (which in the English means "ALL") are out of bounds,and together unprofitable.None do good,not even one, that's what it means.
Further in the chapter we see:
"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood.Destruction and misery are in their ways.And the way of peace have they not known.There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:14-18
Sounds like a description of depravity to me.

The truth is, Ormly, depravity is still "in effect". It did not end with the flood,or with any other event in history. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All means everybody, and includes me (Oh,how well I know it! Sin and depravity are ever at the door of the heart,wanting in) and you,too,Ormly.

I do not expect these comments to be well received. In Luke chapter 4, Christ pointed out depravity amongst people of His own home area, and they sought to throw Him headlong from the cliff. It says they were filled "with great wrath." Depravity, I believe, is ever present in the best of Christians,ready to rear it's ugly head. Not to condemn you to Hell...no,that is not possible for the true Children of God. But to ruin your life and fellowship with Christ.
WARNING! Don't do it, but I think you could take the "Safe Search" off your computer right now,and going to almost any search engine, you could see unbelieveable depravity.And not only that, if you sit and watch it, your depraved soul will LIKE IT! WARNING!

So,when did depravity start? See Genesis. When will depravity end? See Revelations. When God wipes away all our tears, He is wiping away the depravity which is finally finished, thanks to the Blood of the Lamb that was Slain.Nothing causes more tears in the heart of the Converted than their continued ability,nay, desire, to fulfill the lusts of their depraved flesh.

Written in Love,
Julian of York
"And the work of righteousness shall be peace.And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever." Isaiah 32:17

Not hardly. What you must do is explain away Rom. 3:10 while recognizing the FACT of the many who were righteous, as evidenced in the scriptures. When you do that correctly you will find that Paul was NOT saying what you have been led to believe. Again, we are speaking of ALL of humanity being "totally depraved". That just isn't so. Do you understand that?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Crypto, Brother, I would be careful with embracing that blasphemous remark by Augustine. The Church of Jesus Christ is NO harlot. Obviously he is referring to the RCC but, by his upbringing, is not able to make proper distinctions. However, and by his ignorance, by implication, ["C"] he cannot help but 'cause' it to mean the whole, truly universal, CHURCH of Christ. I pity him.

Then you really have no grasp at what St. Augustine was saying and perhaps should think about it a little bit more.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

Then you really have no grasp at what St. Augustine was saying and perhaps should think about it a little bit more.

-CryptoLutheran

To the contrary: Perhaps you should clarify what it is you believe he is saying and not post such an inflammatory remark. I really don't care to read Augustine for seeking his wisdom.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

To the contrary: Perhaps you should clarify what it is you believe he is saying and not post such an inflammatory remark. I really don't care to read Augustine for seeking his wisdom.

The meaning of the quote is rather straightforward; I'm not entirely sure Augustine actually said it, though it's usually attributed to the ancient doctor. It means that the Church is often a harlot, faithless, and that can be seen throughout history as the Church we have failed to live up to the standards of Jesus Christ. The Church is also our mother, it is in the Church that we are nourished, raised up with the motherly care that we need to grow into mature persons in Christ. It is the Church where I receive the sustenance of God's Word and Sacraments, I am fed the living Gospel of Jesus, I receive Christ Himself in the bread and the wine. So the Church is a harlot, she is often unfaithful and tragically so because the Church is made up of fallible sinners, but she is also my mother--for no one can have God as Father without having the Church as mother. For I am fed here, I am raised here, I am nourished and given food and drink here that feeds me, nourishes me, nurtures me, that heals me when I am sick, that causes me to grow and mature.

So yes, the Church is a harlot, but she is also my mother.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jake255]

We were all born with a sin nature but we have a new nature now - Christ's nature! We are dead, He is alive in us. Not sure why we believe we're depraved now. We're to be conforming to Christ's image, can't do that with our old nature, we're a new creation.

 

[Ormly]

The meaning of the quote is rather straightforward; I'm not entirely sure Augustine actually said it, though it's usually attributed to the ancient doctor. It means that the Church is often a harlot, faithless, and that can be seen throughout history as the Church we have failed to live up to the standards of Jesus Christ. The Church is also our mother, it is in the Church that we are nourished, raised up with the motherly care that we need to grow into mature persons in Christ. It is the Church where I receive the sustenance of God's Word and Sacraments, I am fed the living Gospel of Jesus, I receive Christ Himself in the bread and the wine. So the Church is a harlot, she is often unfaithful and tragically so because the Church is made up of fallible sinners, but she is also my mother--for no one can have God as Father without having the Church as mother. For I am fed here, I am raised here, I am nourished and given food and drink here that feeds me, nourishes me, nurtures me, that heals me when I am sick, that causes me to grow and mature.

So yes, the Church is a harlot, but she is also my mother.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe what you are describing can better be explained as mother church usurping Fathers authority.

Any knowledge held by anyone that brings such accusation would, by conscience negate any nurturing. Don't you think? I mean if you know and excuse it how then could you say you grow? And if you accepted for the sake of growth, any growth would be 'contaminated'. One's faith would be surely be stinted.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I believe what you are describing can better be explained as mother church usurping Fathers authority.

Any knowledge held by anyone that brings such accusation would, by conscience negate any nurturing. Don't you think? I mean if you know and excuse it how then could you say you grow? And if you accepted for the sake of growth, any growth would be 'contaminated'. One's faith would be surely be stinted.

The Church is always the Church, even when the Church falters.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

The Church is always the Church, even when the Church falters.

-CryptoLutheran

The Church of Jesus Christ never falters. And that is not because she can't but because she won't. She is likened unto the bride of Christ who is preparing herself for that great day when He comes for her. So it is never an issue with faltering but of purifying herself as she seeks to be because she is her beloved's and He is hers. A mystery? Perhaps. However, for that reason she exist as an organism and not as an organization. . .

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The Church of Jesus Christ never falters. And that is not because she can't but because she won't. She is likened unto the bride of Christ who is preparing herself for that great day when He comes for her. So it is never an issue with faltering but of purifying herself as she seeks to be because she is her beloved's and He is hers. A mystery? Perhaps. However, for that reason she exist as an organism and not as an organization. . .

Last I checked the Church was composed of visible, actual, human beings.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Julian of York]

We were all born with a sin nature but we have a new nature now - Christ's nature! We are dead, He is alive in us. Not sure why we believe we're depraved now. We're to be conforming to Christ's image, can't do that with our old nature, we're a new creation.

Jake,
Thanks for joining in the conversation!
I must warn you against assuming that people on this site are,indeed ,converted. It does seem rather difficult in believing a person has repented and turned from their depraved sin and way of life and still say that the natural man is NOT depraved. A person not understanding that fact would not realize they NEED to be born again! They would go on assuming they are as good as anyone else, which,in a natural way, is true. (Actually,a better way to put that would be that they are as BAD as everybody else.) "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:10
Otherwise, for those that are really converted, your post is "Right On,Brother!".

Julian of York
"Therefore they say unto God,Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. What is the Almighty that we should serve Him? And what profit shall we have if we pray to Him?" Job 21:14-15

 

[Ormly]

Last I checked the Church was composed of visible, actual, human beings.

-CryptoLutheran

Thas right. . . . all over the world__of EVERY Christian persuasion.

 

[Jake255]

Jake,
Thanks for joining in the conversation!
I must warn you against assuming that people on this site are,indeed ,converted. It does seem rather difficult in believing a person has repented and turned from their depraved sin and way of life and still say that the natural man is NOT depraved. A person not understanding that fact would not realize they NEED to be born again! They would go on assuming they are as good as anyone else, which,in a natural way, is true. (Actually,a better way to put that would be that they are as BAD as everybody else.) "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:10
Otherwise, for those that are really converted, your post is "Right On,Brother!".

Julian of York
"Therefore they say unto God,Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. What is the Almighty that we should serve Him? And what profit shall we have if we pray to Him?" Job 21:14-15

Yes, that is a good point, I was referring to those who are already in Christ.
Even the ones who "think" they are in Christ, should examine themselves to ensure they are in the faith!
Blessings.

 

[Jake255]

Last I checked the Church was composed of visible, actual, human beings.

-CryptoLutheran

Human beings that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved we are taking on Christ's nature, we are saved INTO Christ. Human? yes, but we are conforming to His image.

It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me, we were dead and made alive again in Him, raised from our old nature, into His nature.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Human beings that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved we are taking on Christ's nature, we are saved INTO Christ. Human? yes, but we are conforming to His image.

It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me, we were dead and made alive again in Him, raised from our old nature, into His nature.

And yet you and I continue to sin, make mistakes, act faithless, screw up and fail at following Jesus as we should.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Thas right. . . . all over the world__of EVERY Christian persuasion.

Yes, and we all continue to make mistakes, screw up, falter, and get things wrong now and then. We are often playing the part of the faithless adulteress when it comes to our devotion to Christ.

-CryptoLutheran