Total depravity

[msortwell]

I somewhat disagree with the doctrine of Original Sin.

I do not believe that we are totally depraved . . . I believe that we all suffer the side-effects of sin (Death for instance), but we are not held accountable for ancestral sin. The sins of the father do not fall upon the son. God says that He does not hold us accountable for the sins of others, only our own sins. That indicates that we all have the ability to do good and not sin.

Greetings SStreak,

The doctrine of original sin is foundational to the orthodox understanding of our redemption through Christ. Certainly it is true that the term "original sin" does not appear in the inspired text. But to what does this man-made terminology refer? It refers to the Bible's teaching that all of Adam's decendents were "in him" when he did sin, originally. The Scriptures say it as follows:

Rom 5:12-14a, Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam . . .

The Scriptures teach that some had not sinned like Adam did in his transgression, "nevertheless death reigned" over them. This is the concept of original sin. How does death reign? I believe the Bible teaches us this also.

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he[Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.(KJV)

Those untouched by Christ's saving work are slaves to sin. Every aspect of their will is in concenting bondage to sin. They are bound by their own fear. Bound by what they consider is necessary for self preservation. Sadly, they do err, knowing not the Scriptures.

Luke 9:24
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
(KJV)

So, the Scriptures do teach the doctrine, which has come to be called "original sin." But is it really important that we embrace this doctrine? Yes. The doctrine of original sin is foundational. For the basis upon which we are guilty in Adam (his federal headship) is inimately linked to the basis upon which we can be judged righteous in Christ.

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (NKJ)

Original sin in Adam. Righteousness in Christ. The two are essentially linked one with the other.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

guilty of one sin ......guilty of all

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but thee sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, I do.

This is Depravity

 

[Ben johnson]

This is Depravity

And Paul wails, "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me FREE from this body of death?"

The answer, is in ch8; vs1-17; isn't it? Especially vs12-14?

 

[Starstreak M86]

Greetings SStreak,

The doctrine of original sin is foundational to the orthodox understanding of our redemption through Christ. Certainly it is true that the term "original sin" does not appear in the inspired text. But to what does this man-made terminology refer? It refers to the Bible's teaching that all of Adam's decendents were "in him" when he did sin, originally. The Scriptures say it as follows:

Rom 5:12-14a, Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam . . .

Hi!

Sorry it took me so long to respond!

Anyway, I disagree. I know that Original Sin (the term itself) does not appear in the Bible. But, the concept doesn't either!

It simply says that sin entered the world (in other words: was introduced into the world) through Adam's transgression. This does not prove that all are blamed of Adam's sin. In fact, if you read on in Genesis 4 and 5, the Bible says that all humans after Adam SINNED as well. Adam was not the only Man created (remember his son Cain was scared of some mysterious "other people" out in the land east of Nod).

We are not punished for ancestral sin, we are punished for OUR OWN sin. The Torah makes this clear:
http://www.preachersfiles.com/cauley/bible_lessons/original_sin.htm
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs01.htm

We are only affected by the side-effects of the sin of our ancestors (such as Death). We do not carry the sin itself. Since sin causes death, the propensity to die is simply transmuted into our descendants, not the actual sin itself. We are born with the strong urge to sin (another side-effect), but not the inability to stop sinning. God calls several people in the Old Testament "blameless" or "sinless" (such as Abraham and Noah).

The Scriptures teach that some had not sinned like Adam did in his transgression, "nevertheless death reigned" over them. This is the concept of original sin. How does death reign? I believe the Bible teaches us this also.

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he[Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.(KJV)

Those untouched by Christ's saving work are slaves to sin. Every aspect of their will is in concenting bondage to sin. They are bound by their own fear. Bound by what they consider is necessary for self preservation. Sadly, they do err, knowing not the Scriptures.

That is a bit of an extrapolation. The text indicates that humans have a tendancy and strong urge to sin (which I agree with), not that they are unable to stop sinning. Christ told several people to "go and sin no more". Now if we are Totally Depraved, then Christ's command was a ridiculous one, because it would be impossible. Obviously, God expects that people can stop sinning, because He punishes people that have never even heard of Christ for sin. Paul said that God has given all people a conscience to stop sinning.

• For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

Obviously, we are not totally depraved if we have a conscience and can act on it.

Those who know the Gospel are held to a stricter judgement since we "know better":

• Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1)

So, the Scriptures do teach the doctrine, which has come to be called "original sin." But is it really important that we embrace this doctrine? Yes. The doctrine of original sin is foundational. For the basis upon which we are guilty in Adam (his federal headship) is inimately linked to the basis upon which we can be judged righteous in Christ.

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (NKJ)

Original sin in Adam. Righteousness in Christ. The two are essentially linked one with the other.

Not exactly. Yes, all die in Adam in the sense that Adam introduced sin to humans by being the first sinner, and all after Adam have followed suit and sinned. All are made in alive in Christ in that all will eventually follow Christ (in my opinion, I am a Trinitarian Universalist [no, I do not believe that all religions lead to God] and I believe that Hell is only temporary, and all will accept Christ at the end of the ages [Hebrews 9]).

Also, the Bible never says that all humans descend from Adam. Otherwise, everyone would be related to him, but the Bible says that only some humans are directly descended from him (such as Christ was). There is no evidence that Adam and Eve were the only created humans.

 

[agenes]

Starstreak M86


If you would be willing, I would like to formally debate you on Universalism.

Let me know.

God Bless

 

[Starstreak M86]

Starstreak M86


If you would be willing, I would like to formally debate you on Universalism.

Let me know.

God Bless

Uh, sure.

I can start tomorrow. Is that okay?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

And Paul wails, "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me FREE from this body of death?"

The answer, is in ch8; vs1-17; isn't it? Especially vs12-14?

He knew chapter 6 but had not lived it yet
this is after he lived chapter 7 ... still

He learned to know that he is a sinner that is not yet glorifyiedBut postionally He is dead to the sin nature

 

[frumanchu]

It simply says that sin entered the world (in other words: was introduced into the world) through Adam's transgression. This does not prove that all are blamed of Adam's sin. In fact, if you read on in Genesis 4 and 5, the Bible says that all humans after Adam SINNED as well. Adam was not the only Man created (remember his son Cain was scared of some mysterious "other people" out in the land east of Nod).

Are you saying that not all human beings are descendants of Adam?

We are not punished for ancestral sin, we are punished for OUR OWN sin.

We are only affected by the side-effects of the sin of our ancestors (such as Death).

Death is not a "side-effect" of sin, it is a penalty, and as such if it is inflicted upon Adam's descendents then either God is unjust...or they too are guilty.

We do not carry the sin itself. Since sin causes death, the propensity to die is simply transmuted into our descendants, not the actual sin itself. We are born with the strong urge to sin (another side-effect), but not the inability to stop sinning. God calls several people in the Old Testament "blameless" or "sinless" (such as Abraham and Noah).

Friend, this is a view commonly known as Pelagianism. It was denounced as heresy clear back in the fifth century. No descendent of Adam save Christ Himself has had the ability to not sin. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

That is a bit of an extrapolation. The text indicates that humans have a tendancy and strong urge to sin (which I agree with), not that they are unable to stop sinning. Christ told several people to "go and sin no more". Now if we are Totally Depraved, then Christ's command was a ridiculous one, because it would be impossible. Obviously, God expects that people can stop sinning, because He punishes people that have never even heard of Christ for sin. Paul said that God has given all people a conscience to stop sinning.

• For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

Obviously, we are not totally depraved if we have a conscience and can act on it.

Those who know the Gospel are held to a stricter judgement since we "know better":

• Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1)

Not exactly. Yes, all die in Adam in the sense that Adam introduced sin to humans by being the first sinner, and all after Adam have followed suit and sinned. All are made in alive in Christ in that all will eventually follow Christ (in my opinion, I am a Trinitarian Universalist [no, I do not believe that all religions lead to God] and I believe that Hell is only temporary, and all will accept Christ at the end of the ages [Hebrews 9]).

Also, the Bible never says that all humans descend from Adam. Otherwise, everyone would be related to him, but the Bible says that only some humans are directly descended from him (such as Christ was). There is no evidence that Adam and Eve were the only created humans.

Friend you are treading well beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Might I respectfully suggest you discuss these position in the Unorthodox Theology forum?

 

[Starstreak M86]

[/size][/font]

Are you saying that not all human beings are descendants of Adam?

Hi!

The Bible does not say that all are descended from Adam. This is a bit of an extrapolation. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where it says that Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans created in Eden. Although I do not believe that all are descended from Adam and Eve (if we were, there would have had to have been countless cases of incest, not to mention the problem of where different races come from) I DO believe that everyone in Adam's time sinned and people after them as well.

Death is not a "side-effect" of sin, it is a penalty, and as such if it is inflicted upon Adam's descendents then either God is unjust...or they too are guilty.

• A. I Jn. 3:4 - Sin is an act. It is something that is done. It is not inherited.
• B. Jas. 1:13-15 - process of becoming a sinner
• Lust + enticement = temptation
• Temptation + action = sin and spiritual death
• What child meets this pattern at birth?

Friend, this is a view commonly known as Pelagianism. It was denounced as heresy clear back in the fifth century. No descendent of Adam save Christ Himself has had the ability to not sin. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

I'm not so sure. My views fall somewhere in-between that of Pelagius and Augustine. I agree with Augustine on some views, I agree with Pelagius on some views. They BOTH have viewpoints that I disagree with.

Anyway, the Bible teaches individual accountability and responsibility; Ezek. 18:20; Rom. 14:12; II Cor. 5:10. Small children are portrayed in the Bible as being Innocent, pure, and free from sin; Mt. 18:1-14; Psa. 127:3; Deut. 1:39; II Sam. 12:22-23; Heb. 12:9. The Bible process of becoming a Christian and having sins forgiven excludes small children and infants. Infant baptism is unknown in the Bible. Infants do not inherit sin (Ezek. 18:20) and they are not accountable (Deut. 1:39). bible baptism is preceded by teaching, faith, repentance and confession (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; Mt. 28:18-20; Acts 8:26-39).

Jesus' description of a person who is a good hearer in the parable of the sower in Lk. 8:11-15 is in conflict with the idea of being totally depraved before conversion. Jesus said that it is possible to have "an honest and good heart" prior to even hearing the word of God.

The Bible teaches:

• A. "have gone astray" - - not born astray - - Isa. 53:6
• B. "gone out of the way" - - not born out of the right way - - Rom. 3:12
• C. "become unprofitable" - - not born unprofitable - - Rom. 3:12
• D. "man's heart is evil from his youth" - - not his birth - - Gen. 8:21

Not to mention that I think that Abraham and Job might have been called "sinless" (translated "blameless" by God).

Now THIS is the Bible speaking, not Pelagius or Augustine.

Friend you are treading well beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Might I respectfully suggest you discuss these position in the Unorthodox Theology forum?

All of us have some views that might not be considered "orthodox". I'm not sure if "Original Sin" is considered an orthodox view by the Creeds (Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed) which I don't think it is, or if it is "traditional" de facto ortodoxy (unwritten "orthodoxy").

We ALL die because of the CONSEQUENCES of Adam's sin. We DO NOT inherit his sin because if you will only read Ezekiel 18:20 it PLAINLY states, "The SOUL WHO SINS SHALL DIE. The SON SHALL NOT BEAR THE GUILT OF THE FATHER, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the WICKEDNESS OF THE WICKED SHALL BE UPON HIMSELF."

If what the Bible says is "unorthodox", then something is VERY WRONG INDEED with us so-called Christians, daring to say that God is wrong in some parts in the Bible.

Thank you for the warning me however! All of us need to be aware of whether we are tredding into heresy or truth.

 

[Azaka]

• A. I Jn. 3:4 - Sin is an act. It is something that is done. It is not inherited.
• B. Jas. 1:13-15 - process of becoming a sinner
• Lust + enticement = temptation
• Temptation + action = sin and spiritual death
• What child meets this pattern at birth?

Excellent point, Starstreak!

the Bible teaches individual accountability and responsibility; Ezek. 18:20; Rom. 14:12; II Cor. 5:10. Small children are portrayed in the Bible as being Innocent, pure, and free from sin; Mt. 18:1-14; Psa. 127:3; Deut. 1:39; II Sam. 12:22-23; Heb. 12:9. The Bible process of becoming a Christian and having sins forgiven excludes small children and infants. Infant baptism is unknown in the Bible. Infants do not inherit sin (Ezek. 18:20) and they are not accountable (Deut. 1:39). bible baptism is preceded by teaching, faith, repentance and confession (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; Mt. 28:18-20; Acts 8:26-39). Jesus' description of a person who is a good hearer in the parable of the sower in Lk. 8:11-15 is in conflict with the idea of being totally depraved before conversion. Jesus said that it is possible to have "an honest and good heart" prior to even hearing the word of God.

I would only add that the "honest and good heart" Jesus speaks of in Luke 8 is not a heart that it naturally good or has never sinned, but is instead a heart that, after having been convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, is repentant and/or willing. I believe it is only in a repetant and willing heart that the Word of God, planted by the Holy Spirit, can blossom into faith (and the good works that spring from faith).

The Bible teaches:

• A. "have gone astray" - - not born astray - - Isa. 53:6
• B. "gone out of the way" - - not born out of the right way - - Rom. 3:12
• C. "become unprofitable" - - not born unprofitable - - Rom. 3:12
• D. "man's heart is evil from his youth" - - not his birth - - Gen. 8:21

Once again, great points.

In Christ,
Azaka

 

[Starstreak M86]

Excellent point, Starstreak!

Thanks, sis!

I would only add that the "honest and good heart" Jesus speaks of in Luke 8 is not a heart that it naturally good or has never sinned, but is instead a heart that, after having been convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, is repentant and/or willing. I believe it is only in a repetant and willing heart that the Word of God, planted by the Holy Spirit, can blossom into faith (and the good works that spring from faith).

Very good point. Enlightenment from the Holy Spirit is definitely something is needed for openess to the Gospel. Even though I don't beleive in Original Sin, I believe that humans are strongly naturally inclined towards sin as a side-effect of the "Fall". We develop a hard shell of sinfulness and unbelief around our hearts, and need the Holy Spirit to circumsize our hearts to hear properly.

If the Holy Spirit descends upon you, She can open your ears.

Once again, great points.

In Christ,
Azaka

Once again, thanks!

For future referrence to other viewers of this thread, might I point out that before universally condemning poor Pelagius as a "heretic", both Pelagius and Augustine had questionable views. Pelagius did not actually declare everything that nay-sayers of Pelagius traditionally attribute to him. One of his underlings, Celestius was more extreme on Pelagianism than Pelagius was, and unfortunately, Pelagius gets the blame for this.

While I am not sure if I agree with Pelagius' view that a baptized born-again believer can live a sinless life if he/she tries hard enough, I do remember Christ telling repetant sinners to "Sin no more", and at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ says "Be perfect, therefore your Father in Heaven is perfect". Sounds like Jesus expected us to be perfect, otherwise this would be a stupid command if Original Sin is true.

Pelagius wrote two major treatises which are no longer extant, On Nature and On Free Will. In these, he defends his position on sin and sinlessness, and accuses Augustine and Jerome of being under the influence of Manicheanism. Their doctrine of Original Sin restored evil to a Manichean status, and their predestinarianism was tantamount to Manichean fatalism. And it is a historical fact, acknowledged even by Augustine himself in his autobiography/treatise Confessions that he had dabbled in Manicheanism in his younger days.

I think that Manicheanisist Fatalism got carried over into orthodoxy by Augustine, and into Calvinism as a consequence in the form of "Predestination" and "Unconditonal Election". Augustine could be considered a heretic by these standards.

Pelagius believed that the Christianisation of the Roman Empire was not making true Christians of people, he believed, only "conforming Pagans." He began preaching with the fervent desire to lead everyone to live an authentic Christian life according to the Gospel. Pelagius believed that the grace and renewing power of baptism had brought the opportunity to struggle on the path to perfection; but instead, he saw Christians squandering their baptism and "lapsing back into their old, comfortable habits of self-indulgence and careless pursuit of Mammon." The main focus of his preaching was never theological, but practical moral advice. Even Augustine described him as "a holy man, who, I am told, has made no small progress in the Christian life."

Soon after, he wrote his famous Commentary on the Pauline Epistles, in which he set out his opposition to such Augustinian doctrines as the inherited guilt of original sin, rigid predestination, and the necessity of baptism to spare infants from hell. Augustine could rightly be labeled the "founder" of the Catholic Cathechism, and according to Augustine's views, almost all Protestants are heretics as well.

Today, historians of the Church realise that Pelagius was not condemned simply on theological grounds. Rather, Pelagius's teaching was seen as a threat, a "potentially dangerous source of schism in the body social and politic." His central message that there is only one authentic Christian life, the path to perfection, left no room for nominal Christians that we have today. If he had gone off into the Syrian or Egyptian desert, he would probably have been a revered Church Father. Instead, he clashed with the comfortable Christianity which had become the basis of unity in the Imperial Church, and, as a result, he has gone down as the West's chief heresiarch.

Pelagius was a heretic because he viewed Christ's words of "Be perfect, therefore your Father in Heaven is perfect" seriously. His views bothered and disturbed name-only Christians and reformed Pagans who claimed to be "Christians".

 

[nobdysfool]

If the Holy Spirit descends upon you, She can open your ears.

Since when is the Holy Spirit a "she"???

BTW, Azaka is a "he", not a "sis".....

 

[Starstreak M86]

[/font][/color]
Since when is the Holy Spirit a "she"???

According to the Hebrew text, the Holy Spirit is feminine, and in the Bible takes on feminine characteristics. Such as "Comforter", "Counselor", "Nurtuer", etc. The Holy Spirit is called "He" in our Bibles ONLY because the Latin word for "Spirit" (which is "spiritus") is masculine, but is feminine ("ruach") in Hebrew.

I'm not actually talking about real genders here, but more of the roles. God the Father is not really a "male" per se, but takes on masculine roles of a Father, just like the Holy Spirit takes on the roles of a Mother, such as in Proverbs, Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom of Solomon.

If Christ has a Father, He has to have a Mother. Ephesians 3:15 says that human family represents that Godhead, and NO family is complete without a mother figure. I guess the Church (Bride of Christ) takes on a daughter figure per se.

http://www.omegaministry.org/trinity.html

An excellent presentation of how the trinity functions, according to Scripture, is the earthly family. In His divine wisdom, God has set-up the family unit in such a way as to reveal the authority and order of God to us. The roles God has designed for the family unit is a direct reflection of the roles of each member of the Godhead. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is the equivalent to the role of a mother. Remember, we are not talking about genders here. We are talking about "roles" and how those roles relate to each other.

Although comprised of more than one person (father, mother, and children), a family functions as one entity because all of the members of the family are to be in subjection to the head of the family - namely the father. Scripture tells us that it is the same way with God.

Jesus' "role" in relationship to the Father was in obedience and subjection to His will as His Son. He takes commands from His Father and subjects His will to that of the Father (John 5:30-37; John 6:38-39; John 6:57; John 10:18; John 12:49; John 14:31; John 15:10; Luke 2:49; Luke 11:2; Matthew 26:42). This is consistent with the "role" given children in earthly families (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20).

The "role" of the Holy Spirit is to perform God's Word as the life-giving power of God. The Holy Spirit also operates in obedience to the Father (John 16:13-15). As a life-giver, comforter, and nurturer of God's people, the spirit's "role" is like that of the woman (John 6:63; John 14:16; Romans 8:11; I Peter 3:18). The woman also produces life in the earthly family and is a comforter and nurturer. Also, we know from Scriptures that the woman is the glory of the man (I Corinthians 11:7). Likewise, the Holy Spirit reveals the Glory of God (II Corinthians 3:18; I Peter 4:14).

I Corinthians 11:3 states, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." God tells us two important things about the structure of a family and the order of God. The head of the woman is the man just like the head of Christ is God. In each instance, we see that the final authority rests with the father (both in the earthly family and in the family of God).

BTW, Azaka is a "he", not a "sis".....

Oops! I must have been looking at another poster's profile thingy.....hehehe.......*hand behind head in embarrassment*

 

[Azaka]

An excellent presentation of how the trinity functions, according to Scripture, is the earthly family. In His divine wisdom, God has set-up the family unit in such a way as to reveal the authority and order of God to us. The roles God has designed for the family unit is a direct reflection of the roles of each member of the Godhead. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is the equivalent to the role of a mother. Remember, we are not talking about genders here. We are talking about "roles" and how those roles relate to each other.

Although comprised of more than one person (father, mother, and children), a family functions as one entity because all of the members of the family are to be in subjection to the head of the family - namely the father. Scripture tells us that it is the same way with God.

Jesus' "role" in relationship to the Father was in obedience and subjection to His will as His Son. He takes commands from His Father and subjects His will to that of the Father (John 5:30-37; John 6:38-39; John 6:57; John 10:18; John 12:49; John 14:31; John 15:10; Luke 2:49; Luke 11:2; Matthew 26:42). This is consistent with the "role" given children in earthly families (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20).

The "role" of the Holy Spirit is to perform God's Word as the life-giving power of God. The Holy Spirit also operates in obedience to the Father (John 16:13-15). As a life-giver, comforter, and nurturer of God's people, the spirit's "role" is like that of the woman (John 6:63; John 14:16; Romans 8:11; I Peter 3:18). The woman also produces life in the earthly family and is a comforter and nurturer. Also, we know from Scriptures that the woman is the glory of the man (I Corinthians 11:7). Likewise, the Holy Spirit reveals the Glory of God (II Corinthians 3:18; I Peter 4:14).

I Corinthians 11:3 states, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." God tells us two important things about the structure of a family and the order of God. The head of the woman is the man just like the head of Christ is God. In each instance, we see that the final authority rests with the father (both in the earthly family and in the family of God).

Whoa, now that's cool! Thanks, Starstreak!

Your brother in Christ ,
Azaka

 

[Starstreak M86]

Whoa, now that's cool! Thanks, Starstreak!

Your brother in Christ ,
Azaka

Thanks!

Sorry about the gender slip earlier!

Your brother in Christ,
M86