Torchbearers?

[desmalia]

From what I understand, the Torchbearers schools tend to be fairly fundamentalist. So I thought this might be a good place to post this. I attended one over ten years ago and it still has an impact on my life. Has anyone else here attended one?

 

[kobuk]

Tortchbearers taken over by Stuart Briscoe in 1959 http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/briscoe/general.htm

Tortchbearers is a part of the Neo-Evangelical division within Churchianity. It is not a Fundamentalist ministry, because it violates one of the main definitions of what the true fundamentalist position on Scripture is. Tortchbearers is in violation of the commandment to seperate from false teachers and false doctrine.

Fundamentalists correctly identify a commandment and seek to obey that commandment.

Neo-Evangelicals play games with Scripture by ommitting the parts of it that do not match up with their methods.

 

[desmalia]

Tortchbearers taken over by Stuart Briscoe in 1959 http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/briscoe/general.htm

Tortchbearers is a part of the Neo-Evangelical division within Churchianity. It is not a Fundamentalist ministry, because it violates one of the main definitions of what the true fundamentalist position on Scripture is. Tortchbearers is in violation of the commandment to seperate from false teachers and false doctrine.

Fundamentalists correctly identify a commandment and seek to obey that commandment.

Neo-Evangelicals play games with Scripture by ommitting the parts of it that do not match up with their methods.

Can you please give some examples of the "false doctrines"? The one I attended was associated with Major Thomas, but I never heard a word about Briscoe. And I encountered no false doctrine.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I have been to two Torchbearer's schools: Capernwray Quebec, and His Hill Bible School.

I don't find them to be fundamentalist, but neither are they neo-evangelical.

I guess you got no response from the person who just bashed them.

 

[desmalia]

I have been to two Torchbearer's schools: Capernwray Quebec, and His Hill Bible School.

I don't find them to be fundamentalist, but neither are they neo-evangelical.

I guess you got no response from the person who just bashed them.

Nope, no response so far.

When did you go to the Hill???

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I just got back from the Hill on Friday. I didn't get all my homework in because I got majorly sick the last five weeks, but I did learn quite a lot.

 

[desmalia]

I just got back from the Hill on Friday. I didn't get all my homework in because I got majorly sick the last five weeks, but I did learn quite a lot.

Aw, that's too bad. I know they're very strict on homework there. I struggled with that a bit too, but still learned so much. It was the first real grounding in Scripture I ever had, and it really changed my life. I am still in contact with friends I made there, and I attended over a decade ago!

How did it compare to the Quebec school? I haven't heard anything about that one.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

The Quebec school was a little more relaxed. They get people a lot from Roman Catholic backgrounds (and only nominally) so they do a lot of introductory work there... that kind of person wouldn't do well at His Hill.

One thing is that I hate the Hill's points system. :-|

 

[kobuk]

I'd have to see where they are now. They were neo-evangelicals and their most famous promotor, Stuart Briscoe, at least was a few years ago, a neo-evangelical on steroids. By that i mean, promoting Promise Keepers and very major heretics like Billy Graham. Yahshua works miracles in lives, so maybe these so-called Torchbearers have begun to see the light and started to actually obey Yah's entire Word.

Right now i'd have to just go by their appalling past witness and their past dragging through the mud the name of Yahshua.

Any very recent discernment ministry materials on them are hard to find.

Anyhow, why would anyone seek an education anywhere other than a solid fundamentalist bible college or seminary. It makes no sense to try to learn from those who do not love truth enough to not play games with it. Christianity isn't a game.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Is there anything wrong with the concept that Christ dwells in us and that we are dead? Galatians 2:20 says "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me."

This is what the Torchbearer's ministry is all about: learning to let God live through you to do His work through you.

By the way, Torchbearers is not directed by or taken over by Stuart Briscoe. He may have had some involvement somewhere in the ministry, but Maj. Ian Thomas passed the role of general director to his son Christopher, quite some time ago. I do not know where you are getting your information from, but you obviously have not been to a Torchbearer's school and so you have not seen the inner workings of one. Please don't bash what you have not experienced.

The only Briscoe I know is Stuart's brother, Bernard, and he is no where near the neo-evangelical spectrum.

Not everybody who wants to learn more about the bible wishes to go into seminary, and the majority of people who go to the Torchbearers schools are women. According to scripture, women are not to teach, but this does not mean they cannot learn. Seminary is about learning to TEACH the scriptures, the Torchbearer's schools are about learning the fundamentals of the Bible and that Christ is more than your ticket to Heaven- he wants to be your life and you need to let Him be your life.

 

[kobuk]

The only Briscoe I know is Stuart's brother, Bernard, and he is no where near the neo-evangelical spectrum.

I've sat down with Bernard for a very interesting two-way discussion in his Church office at the east end of Brown Deer Road about 25 years ago. Later his beautiful wife joined us. As it was nearly time for them to wrap up and go home for the day. I love the people caught up in the Counter-Reformation and disobedience of Yah's Word. Back then, both Briscoes were very heavily neo-evangelical. The bookstore at Elmbrook being full of enough lies to sink a battleship. Modernism, liberalism and psychoheresy. And a lot of Counter-Reformationist books. Jesuit coadjutor Chuck Colsen for instance. And Counter Reformationist J.I. Packer.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to sit down again with Bernard, knowing what i know now, 25 years later, and have another great conversation.

I could determine where Torchbearers is at today, just by studying their close associations and endorsements. What books do they make required reading in their school carriculum is another great indicator.

About women learning. Women can write essays and place them in places where the general public can read them. A women can create a website and place her essays on it. Provided of course that what she says lines up correctly with scripture. To be of use to us.

I know some women writers of essays who are 1000 times more aware of what's going on than the average person who warms a church seat on sundays. Learn all you can and share what you have learned. Just respect the command not to become a preacher and take on that role as the main overseer of one of Yahshua's Churches.

I did not mean to talk so long, but i wanted to encourage our women not to feel set aside in any way. Men can't have babies. There are just some rules and roles that set us apart but not at odds with each other. We are in fact to compliment each other in our Church fellowship like cords wrapped into a much stronger rope.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

The books we used this year are: The Best of A.W. Tozer, He That Is Spiritual, by Lewis Sperry Chafer, and Thomas Wingfold, Curate, by George MacDonald. Otherwise we just use the Scripture.

 

[kobuk]

Whatever. Just keep your love for the truth Revenwyn so others can learn from you later. Myself included. Nobody ever knows even 1% of everything. We have to share our knowledge and pool it as a resource the entire Church can gain knowledge from. Women can write/type and share their awesome wisdom they recieve from their fellowship with the Holy Trinity.

 

[desmalia]

Is there anything wrong with the concept that Christ dwells in us and that we are dead? Galatians 2:20 says "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me."

This is what the Torchbearer's ministry is all about: learning to let God live through you to do His work through you.

By the way, Torchbearers is not directed by or taken over by Stuart Briscoe. He may have had some involvement somewhere in the ministry, but Maj. Ian Thomas passed the role of general director to his son Christopher, quite some time ago. I do not know where you are getting your information from, but you obviously have not been to a Torchbearer's school and so you have not seen the inner workings of one. Please don't bash what you have not experienced.

The only Briscoe I know is Stuart's brother, Bernard, and he is no where near the neo-evangelical spectrum.

Not everybody who wants to learn more about the bible wishes to go into seminary, and the majority of people who go to the Torchbearers schools are women. According to scripture, women are not to teach, but this does not mean they cannot learn. Seminary is about learning to TEACH the scriptures, the Torchbearer's schools are about learning the fundamentals of the Bible and that Christ is more than your ticket to Heaven- he wants to be your life and you need to let Him be your life.

This was my experience as well. I found nothing "modern" or "liberal" in the training. Quite the opposite. In fact, there was a young woman there when I attended who had chosen to become a pastor prior to coming to the Hill. But after a short time there, she came to understand why that could not be her calling as a woman.

At the same time, there was a student who had attended a Promise Keepers seminar (Prior to going to the Hill) and was very gung ho about it (this was in its early days). The staff really never discussed Promise Keepers and I'm pretty sure none of them had even really known much about it at that point. What I do know is that they wouldn't support or promote something like Promise Keepers because they spoke against the kind of garbage that goes on there.

I totally agree that anyone planning to go into full time ministry or even long-term training should consider a good seminary above a Torchbearers school. But for a shorter term grounding in Biblical studies I still highly recommend His Hill. I do recognize that each individual school may have variations in teachings, and some may not even be very good. But the one I attended in Texas, and the one my friends attended in BC are excellent. In fact I think it would be good for more highschool grads to spend a year there before starting career training.

I often refer to it as a "spiritual greenhouse" because of the incredible amount of growth I experienced there. For me it was a time to separate from worldly distractions and dive deep into Bible study. And beyond that to understand how that study applied to my life. Prior to attending I'd honestly never considered whether the Bible was the inerrant, holy, perfect, authoritative word of God. That is one of the biggest things I gained by attending there.