Torah Abolished?

[simchat_torah]

(This was written earlier)

Shalom.

My father, a christian, invited me to go hear "Jews for Jesus" at his church in hopes of bringing me back to 'christ'. He does not see my Torah based lifestyle as serving the Messiah, but as heretical. Knowing that this fellow from "Jews for Jesus" actually promotes Anti-Torah, he thought I might be excited to come and here a 'jew' speak... lol, little did he know.

This brings me to discuss Torah Observance and it's place in Messianic Judaism. Of course this particular fellow claims that the Torah has been absolved from the life of a believer, albeit Jew or Gentile.

Before I actually present the material I have to offer, I would like to ask to lay out a few ground rules for discussion in this thread. I know that I am not the moderator and have no authority to force such things, so I ask this merely out of respect. Also, that the conversation may not become a one-sided yelling match, but that we may actually learn and grow from each other's perspective. There may be some here who do not feel the Torah is an applicable lifestyle. IN fact, some may even view it as sin! Since I don't know where each individual stands on the issue, I am merely making a plea for decency.

As we all have discovered here in these forums, "Messianic" is a wide and varied term.

The first thing I would like to ask is that one verse (or a small set of related verses) be presented at one time so that one side is not overwhelmed in thier response to the other.

I would also like to lay out that no one jump up and declare "Heretic!" as we are all earnestly seeking, and not purposefully deceiving one another (I hope anyway!).

Thirdly, I would like to ask that the book of Galations be left out of this discussion. We can create an entire seperate thread specifically for the book of Galations if necessary. The reasons why I make this request are quite lengthy and can be explained in a seperate "Galations" thread if anyone is interested (I have my reasons, but please adhere to my request). Don't worry, I do consider it scripture, that is not the reason why. Without getting into it too deeply, I will briefly say that there is SOOOO much at play and so much that is misunderstood that this book alone could easily dominate this discussion. My presentation on Galations would be rather lengthy as well, and I'd rather seperate it for the sake of space and concentration on the subject at hand. So, if we could (on both sides) agree to leave this book out of the discussion and save it for another thread, I would be most grateful.

Now, with that laid out...

I'll be back after a short walk in the woods with my wife. She has been begging to go for a walk on this beautiful afternoon, and I promised her.

So, until then...

Shalom unto to you,
Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

Well, I have been back, had my tummy filled, and have had a nice time of worship.
Let's get started. I admit I am about to break one of the requests I made, that is using more than a few verses, but this is for setting a foundation to build upon. I am doing this because many many many christians are completely unaware of what Torah is. In fact, I had one christian on this board ask me if Torah was the book of the Muslims. It is soley for this reason, and soley in this post, that I will be laying out a plethera of verses so that a foundation may be built.

So, as I said, let's get started!

(btw, I will be using a lot of Hebrew words, but do not fear, I explain each and every one of them. The reason why I do this is that many times either the english has been convoluted, misconstrued, or plain mistranslated, and in order to avoid these added connotations I use the Hebrew... but fear not, I explain all)

One thing that we must learn from the start is that whatever we see in the Brit Chadasha (new test.) must be viewed through the eyes of the Tenach (old test.). The Tenach is the dictionary for the Brit Chadasha.

Torah.

What is it? What does it mean? How was it used?

These are just some of the questions we need in order to get started on our journey of discovery.

Torah is most commonly seen in the christian view as "Law". This, however while true, is not the best definition of Torah. Torah, in Hebrew is derived from the word meaning "To teach".
Simply looking up the word Torah in a Hebrew dictionary you will find the following definitions in order of importance:

1)Teaching
2)Instruction
3)Wisdom
4)Revelation
5) and finally, yes Law

So, while the Torah DOES contain Laws, that is not the primary value or association of the term Torah. Now, whenever you see the word "Law" in the Tenach (that is the old test., and for all intensive purposes I will use the word Tenach from now on) the Hebrew has the word Torah. As well, many times that the following words are used in the English Tenach you will find that Torah is the word behind it in Hebrew:

Revelation, Wisdom, Teachings, Instruction, Light, and in some translations the word Righteousness is also derived from Torah.

Literally, the first five books of the Bible, or also called Moshe (moses), IS the Torah. This must also be kept in the back of one's thoughts as they discern the meaning of Torah.

What does HaShem (G-d) have to say about the Torah? How do the Jews view the Torah?


Life.

"My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments: for the length of days and years of LIFE, and peace they will add to you."
Mishle (Proverbs) 3:1-2

"My covenant with him was one of LIFE and peace..."
Malachai 2:5

(*Moshe to Yisra'el) "Take to your heart all the wordsd which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even the words of this Law (Torah). It is not an idle word for you, indeed it is your LIFE."
D'varim (Duet.) 32:46-47a


Truth.

"They righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Thy Law (Torah) is TRUTH."
Tehillim (psalms) 119:142

"Those who follow after wickedness draw near; they are far from Thy Law. Thou art near, O L-rd, and all thy commandments are TRUTH."
Tehillim 119:150:151

"The sum of thy words is TRUTH, and every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting."
Tehillim 119:160


Righteousness

"It will be RIGHTEOUSNESS for us if we are careful to observe all the commandments before the L-rd our G-d, just as He has commanded us."
Devarim 6:25

".. if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is RIGHTEOUS and will surely live."
Yechezkiel (Ezekiel) 18:9

"Yet they seek me day by day, and delight to know My ways, as a nation that has done RIGHTEOUSNESS, and has not forsaken the ordinance of their G-d."
Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 58:1-2

This is how HaShem described the Torah to the people, and this is how the Jews view the Torah...
It is:
Life
Truth
Righteousness

It must also be noted that the Jews never viewed salvation as coming THROUGH the Torah.


Eternal? Perpetual? Forever?

"Be careful to listen to these words which I command you, in order that it may be well with you and your sons after you FOREVER, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the L-RD your G-d."
Devarim 12:28

"The secret things belong to the YHVH our G-d, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons FOREVER, that we may observe the words of this law (Torah)."
Devarim 29:29

"Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments (the mitzvot [laws] of the Torah) ALWAYS, that it may be well with them and with their sons FOREVER!"
Devarim 5:29


Was the Moshiach (messiah) to come and destroy the lifestyle of Torah? Was he to come and abolish it from the lives of His people?
How about this "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31? Was this to over-rule the "old covenant"? Was it to abolish the Torah?

The Moshiach was prophesied to:
"I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Devarim 18:18

Thus it was understood by the Jews that this Moshiach to come was to not only speak the words of the Father, but also to be in total and 100% agreement with the Father's will and words.

This, we will come back to later (in a future post) and what precisely this means.
Suffice it to say that the role of the Moshiach, according to traditional Rabbinic Judaism, was not only to come and live a perfect righteous lifestyle, but to teach others to do the same. One of the greatest expectations of the Jews was that the Moshiach was to teach Torah from Mt. Zion during the Messianic Kingdom, or the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah.

But let us now examine the "new" covenant in Jer. 31.
This is the specific passage the the rites of the entire Brit Chadasha (new test.) are based upon.

"Behold, the days come, saith the L-RD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Yisra'el, and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the L-RD. But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Yisra'el; After those days, saith the L-RD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-RD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the L-RD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Yermiyahu (jeremiah) 31:31-34

The first thing that we MUST notice is that in Hewbrew it does NOT say "new" covenant. It says "Brit Chadasha" which would literally translate to: "REnewed covenant".

However, this is exactly what this thread is designed for, to discuss what it means to have the covenant renewed upon the heart, for no one teaching his neighbor (for they shall ALL know the L-RD), ect. ect. ect.

What precisely it is that the Moshiach taught, is what we are going to discuss in this thread. I am just laying out the foundation of what was expected of the Moshiach.

So, now that we have this foundation laid....
let us begin the discussion.

Did the Moshiach teach to uphold Torah?
Or did he come to abolish it?

Did the Moshiach's death destroy the Torah as not only a valid lifestyle, but even destroy it as the lifestyle pleasing to HaShem?

This and much more is what I am expecting to get into great detail.

I look forward to it!
Hopefully I can give you the experience of interaction with a True Jewish Believer, and what does Torah mean to them.

Shalom!
Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

I would like to move the conversation (though it may be just me and one sided so far, am I schizophrenic? lol) to the Brit Chadasha.

The first thing I would like to point out is that the word translated as "law" in the Greek is Nomos. Nomos does NOT literally mean law. Nomos is slang for law, but that is not it's direct definition. Pick up any Greek-English Lexicon (I reccomend Thayer's) and you will see precisely what I am speaking of.

The direct meanings of Nomos:
"The generally accepted norm or practice of a society or individual."

***The word Nomos in Greek is where our English words "norm" and "normal" are derived from.

Now, this can refer to the Torah, but one must keep in consideration that [i\]not all of the times that the word Nomos appears in the Greek that must it necessarily mean Torah[/i], or law. Aslo, when it does mean law, it could be referring to a law other than Torah... fyi.

I just wanted to bring this out into the discussion before we got too heavy into the Brit Chadasha verses concerning "law".

This can heavily impact the interpretation of many of the 'brit chadasha' verses used in a discussion on Torah Observance.

Shalom!
Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

Abolish.
Now that we have established expectations of the messiah, let's get into precisely what the messiah taught.

Did he teach to abolish it?

"Do not think that I have come to abloish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Many who quote this passage stop there. They have many meanings of what fulfill means, such as, "He fulfilled it so I don't have to." Yet, he explains what he means in the very next sentance.

Let's continue with the SAME passage and see just what he means:
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth dissappear, not the smallest letter, nor the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of the commandments and teachers others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches the commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Mattiyahu (Matthew) 5:17-19

Abolish?
no.

Fulfill?
yes.

His instruction:
to be great in the kingdom: do the commandments
to be least: break them and teach others to do the same


Now, interestingly Y'shua was using Jewish idioms, which would have been a part of everyday vocabulary at the time and place in which he lived. However, we are now seperated by 2,000 years and probably by continents for many of us... not to mention culturally. In my studies through the Mishnah I discovered that when a Rabbi acuses another of 'abolishing' a particular command, or of torah as a whole, he is stating that "Your 'halacha' defies the written Torah". When this Rabbi defends himself, he then replies that he is acutally "fulfilling Torah" by interpreting (halacha) the mitzvot (law) in a particular and applicable way.

In other words, Y'shua was in the middle of a Rabbinic discussion... he was not 'fulfilling' in the christian sense that the Torah is now done away with, but instead he was 'fulfilling' in the sense that he was making the Torah a breathing and applicable peice of law to impart into our lives.

Shalom,
Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

Well, so far I've been talking to myself... so I shall leave the floor open to anyone who feels they want to jump onto the other side of the fence and argue against Torah observance for the believer...

please feel free to share your side.

thank you and shalom,
Yafet.

 

[DarwinFish]

Let those who follow the Torah do so. You follow the bible, they dont give you grief. So, do the same unto others as you'd have dont to you.

 

[sojeru]

Simchat Hi,

While you gave some difeinitions of Torah earlier- I'd like to add on that.

I have shared it many times of the boards of christian forums yet it seems that no one actually pays attention to it. For me, seeing these attributes of Torah had me understand Messiah who is the Torah much more in depth- and this is why i hold onto the kedushah meshuleshet(three fold holiness) and then what added on to that is the Zohar.
Now:
Torah is a compilation word- it comes from the ROOT word h-r-h
HoReH= Parent, messiah siad "do not call anyone Father, for you only have one Father..."
Thus Father being a Parent- ABBA Horeh. This is an attribute to Torah.
MoReH=TEACHER, Messiah said " do not call anyone teacher, for you only have one teacher- the Messiah.
HoRa'aH=Direction/will/way, Messiah said " I am the WAY..."
And we know by what Simchat shared earlier that Torah is the Life and it is obviously the Truth.
And no one can even think abot getting through HaShem save for by the recognition and ACTING of the ENTIRE TORAH.
so if a person nullifies even one, yes even the person of the Torah who is the Messiah, he cannot come near.
and the same goes the other way around. To nullify even one, yes, even the least of the commandments of the Torah though many of you recieve the person - you cannot come near.

 

[simchat_torah]

so if a person nullifies even one, yes even the person of the Torah who is the Messiah, he cannot come near.
and the same goes the other way around. To nullify even one, yes, even the least of the commandments of the Torah though many of you recieve the person - you cannot come near.

Would you say that this is denying him?
Would you say that we deny his essence by rejecting the Torah?

 

[sojeru]

KEN! KEN! EL NACHON!

 

[Sabian]

I really enjoy the Christians that say we are in the New Testament now the Old Testament does not apply to us.
And they carry around a little New Testament Only Bible.
I take the New Testament and show them all the Old within it.
And say how can you statement be True?

Sorry I'll get in to your topic but I want to read it all first Alot to read and I don't have the time now

 

[Sabian]

(Would you say that we deny his essence by rejecting the Torah?) Interesting Question
What is YAHSHUA?
Is he not EVERY WORD OF YHWH.
The BREAD OF LIFE.
YAHSHUA is our EXAMPLE LOOK AT HIS LIFE ,
did YAHSHUA break The LAW's of writen in TORAH?
Scriputure States that HE was with out spot and without blemish.
If YAHSHUA is your EXAMPLE then you should Study how HE kept TORAH.
YAHSHUA is my EXAMPLE I study how HE kept TORAH not how the Sadducess and Pharesee, and the JEW's at their time were keeping TORAH .
There is nothing wrong with the TORAH.
What is wrong is Mans understanding of it.
WE HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF TRUE TORAH.
IT is the life of YAHSHUA!!!
Have to go to, I'm late SHALOM