Topless Danes

[The Lady Kate]

OR,.... are we in the sarcastic phase where we just mock people?

Ah... No change in the thread then.

I was worried I might have missed something.

 

[Armistead]

They should outlaw boob jobs. That way men would only have saggy boobs to look at and it would be no problem. Plus, it would save me 5K next month.

I'm off to Hooter's for some wings.....

 

[Christian Commando]

Hi people-

I ask this question- What would God say about any level of nudity?

NOT ACCEPTABLE IN PUBLIC- why?

God constantly stresses for us to avoid temptations, to be drawn into sin. What does either level of nudity do for the opposite gender? Causes for the most part, negative thoughts to bring about negative actions eventually.

That is not of God. God declares of both men and women to dress moderately- (loose clothing), not for women to "doll themselves up with so much make up or jewelery, etc.

God declares we are to seek to be less physically attractive, that the attraction of Christ in us being radiated out is what is prominant to attract others.

Why follow worldly standards of how men and women are to look, when it should be God overall we should want to be the prominant attractiion eminating from us.

What is the whole reason the divorce rate has now gone higher than the marriage rate? Because, people have become so accepting of worldly standards for whats "attractive" to each opposite gender, we pay little if any attention to God guiding any potential mate ad end up divorced shortly because we chose looks or lust of other types over Godliness.

Think about it people-

God Bless!!

 

[Loke]

basically, I'm being told to believe this:

Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach without tops and a little bikini bottom walking around.

Ok, that makes sense, I also think it fits God's principle of Modesty for Godly women.

thanks for helping me see the light folks!

Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach with tops and a little bikini bottom walking around...
thanks for helping me see the light.

I'm a male living in Denmark. Seriously, naked breasts are no big deal at places where you're used to see them naked - like the beach. Its an issue if you break norms, like walking naked in the streets. The reason you're against naked breasts is because its breaking one of your cultural norms, and you can't imagine men seeing a naked breast without being sexually aroused.
I can't be in the same room as a woman without being sexually aroused at some point. Her staying dressed is not going to change anything..

 

[fuzzymel]

Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach with tops and a little bikini bottom walking around...
thanks for helping me see the light.

I'm a male living in Denmark. Seriously, naked breasts are no big deal at places where you're used to see them naked - like the beach. Its an issue if you break norms, like walking naked in the streets. The reason you're against naked breasts is because its breaking one of your cultural norms, and you can't imagine men seeing a naked breast without being sexually aroused.
I can't be in the same room as a woman without being sexually aroused at some point. Her staying dressed is not going to change anything..

agreed. If a man cannot be on a beach with a topless woman near than its his problem. The lack of self control is quite frankly pathetic. Here from an early age you learn its the norm to have a few topless women sunbathing. Its really not a big deal unless you try and make it a big deal.

 

[timmeh]

In Germany which is quite religious, it's the norm to go to saunas completely naked, and they're mixed. Never a problem.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Actually according to this the church has lost much appeal there : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2332842,00.html

 

[timmeh]

It is true that religion, specifically Christianity, is losing popularity in Europe including Germany. However, Germany is still very religious compared to most western powers (excluding the US of course)...the chancellor, Angela Merkel, is the chairwoman of the Christian Democratic Union and the leader of the Christian Social Union. Sadly religion still plays a very big role in Germany, a place where the concept of separation of church and state is non existent

 

[Archivist]

agreed. If a man cannot be on a beach with a topless woman near than its his problem. The lack of self control is quite frankly pathetic. Here from an early age you learn its the norm to have a few topless women sunbathing. Its really not a big deal unless you try and make it a big deal.

This is part of the reason why I started this thread. When I was in Europe several years ago it found it very easy to pick out the American men--they were the ones who were staring at the topless women. The European men didn't pay much attention.

This doesn't mean that men are not going to look at a particularly attractive topless woman, just like women in the US check out attractive topless men. There is nothing in scripture that says that women shouldn't go topless and if it became commonplace it wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Armistead]

Looking back, when I went on the mission trip to Africa with a Fundie church, I can remember how we were told we would see nakedness. That the people were not civilized and pagan. That after leading them to Christ, other missions would reform them, get them modest.

There they were mostly naked. The men blushed, acted ashame, tried not to look...almost funny. There we stood in long pants (required) and shirts with collars.

I don't know what language they were speaking, but as much as they were smiling, I can only assume they were saying " Don't they know it's 112 degrees out here, if they're that stupid, why should we believe them"

 

[Nadiine]

Actually according to this the church has lost much appeal there : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2332842,00.html

People are more concerned with aesthetics and having their interest kept than hearing the message of God anymore.

The message isn't what's key, the gimmicks are, which is telling about our world anymore. Not that worship has to be kept stuffy and boring, but it does say alot about where we're at spiritually - & where we're going.

Europe has been shedding Christianity over the past decades, the reports I hear about religion there aren't positive at all. The Bible predicts a falling away and that people will disregard sound doctrine and it's happening.
I don't look to Germany to decide right and wrong (to another poster who posted about what they do) - anymore than I decide morality by Amsterdam or the Middle East.

 

[max1120]

First to clear up a few things. Rome fell because she could not support her Empire it became to far flung for one thing. Large far flung Empires are difficult to maintain another example would be the British Empire...God Save The Queen!

Second in Denmark as with most of western europe has always enjoyed a more open society with regard to nudity,sex,and sexuality. They are a progessive people. While some have said that this leads to moral decay and a break down in society. I would ask them to look around and see how backward thinking about sex and sexuality has brought damage to the planet.

For example,what about the repression of women throught the middle east? There are no topeless pools there I can assure you. Women are forced to cover themselves from head to toe. They are to wear vails and not to speak or sit with males except for their husband or male family members. Would we say they are better off? No! It is so sad over there that women, even have to have their husbands premission to get a mamaogram. That is sick and cruel IMHO.

As far as covering the breast that is just a social convention of our society. At one time in history my ancestors in Scotland wore kilts(skirts) I would not wear one about today as I might look rather silly. In England codpieces were once all the rage in mens fashion. I dare say none of us would dare do so today without feeling a bit odd.

 

[Archivist]

First to clear up a few things. Rome fell because she could not support her Empire it became to far flung for one thing. Large far flung Empires are difficult to maintain another example would be the British Empire...God Save The Queen!

Second in Denmark as with most of western europe has always enjoyed a more open society with regard to nudity,sex,and sexuality. They are a progessive people. While some have said that this leads to moral decay and a break down in society. I would ask them to look around and see how backward thinking about sex and sexuality has brought damage to the planet.

For example,what about the repression of women throught the middle east? There are no topeless pools there I can assure you. Women are forced to cover themselves from head to toe. They are to wear vails and not to speak or sit with males except for their husband or male family members. Would we say they are better off? No! It is so sad over there that women, even have to have their husbands premission to get a mamaogram. That is sick and cruel IMHO.

As far as covering the breast that is just a social convention of our society. At one time in history my ancestors in Scotland wore kilts(skirts) I would not wear one about today as I might look rather silly. In England codpieces were once all the rage in mens fashion. I dare say none of us would dare do so today without feeling a bit odd.

Very well said!

I'm glad to see this thread back!

 

[Johnnz]

Much American religious culture is very negative about human sexuality. Although western societies are clothed there are significant differences within them. Many European cultures accept some level of nudity more than American and English ones do.

From a Christian perspective we have some guidelines.
a) Our bodies (sexual parts included) were crafted by God. They are part of the 'very good' pronounced upon humanity at creation.
b) The fall distorts us quite significantly. BUT, shame is not a virtue. Shame at our bodies is a denial of the goodness of their creator.

That nude=sex is true. But not in every case. Covering our bodies has resulted in them becoming unnaturally eroticised. Cultures where nudity was practiced were not forever sexually aroused. Within our western societies nudists, including Christian nudists, are not in a state of continuous sexual ferment.

There is quite a lot of pagan influences (spiritual= good, perfect; body=imperfect, the lower or inferior) that have crept into Christianity which have then been read back into biblical passages. Teaching the virtue of bodily shame from the early Genesis story is a good example. Thus, we have lost our voice on sexual morality both for believers and society at large. Many believers are sexually active in ways that transgress traditional moral teaching. Maybe we really have got something tragically wrong?

John
NZ

 

[tgg]

Hi Johnnz,

How's it going? Are you still on these forums?

Much American religious culture is very negative about human sexuality. Although western societies are clothed there are significant differences within them. Many European cultures accept some level of nudity more than American and English ones do.

From a Christian perspective we have some guidelines.
a) Our bodies (sexual parts included) were crafted by God. They are part of the 'very good' pronounced upon humanity at creation.
b) The fall distorts us quite significantly. BUT, shame is not a virtue. Shame at our bodies is a denial of the goodness of their creator.

That nude=sex is true. But not in every case. Covering our bodies has resulted in them becoming unnaturally eroticised. Cultures where nudity was practiced were not forever sexually aroused. Within our western societies nudists, including Christian nudists, are not in a state of continuous sexual ferment.

And it wouldn't be possible anyway, we still need to eat, drink, exercise and sleep. Besides, sex is a very energy intensive activity which tires people out in the end.

I have been to many nudist and clothes optional gatherings over the past 20 years and have rarely seen any guys walking around with hard-ons, least of all teenage guys. It's like the Pavlov's dog experiment in reverse, the more you are exposed to public nudity the more natural and less sexualised it becomes.

There is quite a lot of pagan influences (spiritual= good, perfect; body=imperfect, the lower or inferior) that have crept into Christianity which have then been read back into biblical passages. Teaching the virtue of bodily shame from the early Genesis story is a good example. Thus, we have lost our voice on sexual morality both for believers and society at large. Many believers are sexually active in ways that transgress traditional moral teaching. Maybe we really have got something tragically wrong?

Paganism originates from the Latin word meaning 'local', it is not a uniform belief system and attitudes towards nudity vary in it just as much with Christianity. There are Pagans and also Wiccans, New Agers and Witches who are open nudists. The body shame attitudes in early Christian times did not come from pagan influences, but from certain Gnostic sects which denounced all matter as being 'evil' as well as Emporer Constantine deciding social and public nudity was wrong for Christians so that they wouldn't be confused with certain pagan cults which performed rituals nude.

 

[Johnnz]

Hi,

I am still around. I used the term 'pagan' pretty loosely, as different from Christian. I agree that Greek and gnostic influences penetrated Christianity from quite early times and lie behind many modern attitudes towards the body generally and human sexuality in particular.

John
NZ

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Women in Demark have gained the right to go topless in public pools.

Why should this be an issue? Shouldn't women have the right to go topless anywhere that men can go topless?

its contradictory to modesty that scripture prescribes for women. Women should be covered, in a way as to not seduce man.

Women topless is contrary to modesty, chastity, and humility. It also causes occasions to cause others to lust and sin(and even commit adultery). People are already paraded enough with sexualized images in the world anyway, and it has lead to infidelity and the cheapening of the conjugal act.

 

[Armistead14]

People can and do operate within the norms of culture without falling apart. In my several mission trips to Africa, many tribes are christian but still partake of handed down culture to survive, so polygamy exist.

Note, we're all use to seeing Africans naked. It's strange when you first visit, because you're aware they're naked. However, they have seen nakedness from birth and pay no more clue to naked bodies than we do fully clothed.. In fact, over time it seems when they marry, they are more intuned to what counts..what are the woman's good habits, is the man strong and can provide. Tribe leaders insure couples are ready and many marriages are fixed. The most important beauty feature to the man is the womans face, that's all they talk about when it comes to beauty. See, they haven't been corrupted by religions view on sexuality.

So imagine these naked people coming to the alter to pray bent over with naked butts in the air. Imagine them dancing at night praising God. You get use to it. Many missions eventually start teaching them being naked is sin, ect. In every case they then become attuned to sexuality, then comes jealously and hate. The tribe falls apart. We try to change their culture and destroy them. It's happened all through history.

So it's really in the mind. People that have been taught nakedness is evil by itself alone will always think of the body sexually, more than those that don't, but we must face why our culture is this sexually corrupt, because we placed so much evil on sexuality through religion. Religion so taught sex and nakedness was evil, that the reverse effect was much perversion...evil causes that. Most of our corrupt views on sex, stem from the wrong teachings of religion. In almost every case of sexual dysfunction, some religious cause is usually at it's base.

Certainly I believe in our culture clothes are needed, because we have generational thought processes on sexuality, but take a trip to Africa, where it get's so hot, you'll see why they barely wear anything.

It's a sin in your mind, you'll have to deal with those thoughts, but a naked body tells me there is a God. To admire it's beauty. The evil is in the harmful behavior and of the mind and body, not the body itself.

Let culture rule....where it works for God. I don't know that nakedness in the modern world could funtion ...other places can without a problem....and sadly purtian religion is to blame. It a case of where no harm is done, but looking at a naked body and being sexually attracted to it will never be lust biblically. It's that evil teaching that has made us a corrupt evil culture. It's the harm and misuse of sexuality that is the problem.

 

[marlowe007]

I think it's unfair that it's acceptable for men to walk around topless, but women can't. Obvious 'double' standard.

I see nothing wrong with nudity. If you like it, do it. If you don't like it, don't do it! It is commonplace for people to think that something sexual is involved if people are naked. Mix men with women and people will suspect an orgy, even if there isn't one. Involve children and now you are now considered a pedophile, even if nothing sexual is happening.

Points to consider-
1. Christian couples, concerned for personal holiness, whose only knowledge about nude recreation is from negative sources, look at the idea of nude recreation as nothing more than a sex party. Wives don't want their husbands to have any more invitations to lust than they have already. Our Western culture provides us with enough of those kind of invitations.

2. Personal body shame will result in women constantly comparing themselves to young and "perfect" models, which only results in anxiety. This also creates a problem with husbands, who like everybody else, will notice other women. An insecure wife will only think that her husband is looking for a way to gawk at other nude women or is out shopping for a new wife. If you are already having marriage problems, please settle those problems before introducing social nudism to your spouse.

3. Many women feel like the only motivation a husband may have for engaging in social nudism is to gawk at other women. This would result in anger with most wives. Many women who are nudists testify to the opposite. This is an expected attitude in the West because of the association of sex with nudity.

4. Many people, men included, feel that if you are a Christian, you ought to be modest. This is probably the strongest reason most people use as an objection to participation in social nudism. What really is modesty all about? Is modesty about "morality", or are we confusing the issue? It is equating nudity with sex that creates this problem. If a person DOES associate sex with nudity, then being nude is not modest. Ask people who have participated in social nudism and see if the primary reason is sex or recreation. You just might be surprised. "Modest" really means "appropriate for the situation", or "neat and orderly". Can you be completely nude and modest? You can if your motivation and purpose is not sexual.

Most objections about 'modesty' are really objections about personal insecurity - how the man/woman feels about him/herself. It may look like an objection over 'modesty' when it is really a deep, emotional fear about comparing oneself to others.

5. Let's face it. We all know what we look like nude. All men know what nude women look like and all women know what nude men look like. Boys and girls are smaller version of adults.

To view the opposite sex nude does not automatically imply that lust will soon follow. "Lust" is active with clothes on as well as off. Mostly nude (or partly revealed) is more seductive than totally nude. It's the 'hidden' part that tempts us. And we all know what is underneath anyway. It doesn't take any imagination to fill in the hidden parts on a body that a wet bathing suit is plastered on to. Removal of the bathing suit also removes the seductive thrill of those bathing suits. If you think about it, bathing suits actually ACCENT the parts of the body they try to cover up!

The biggest benefit to social nudism is the relief from cultural stress. Once you see that it is about recreation, you will have opened up a new world to explore. You will also be able to overcome cultural stress about body shame, comparing yourself to 'perfect' models.

6. If nudity were common, and there were no 'forbidden zones' to view with either sex, what would happen to the pornography market? Wouldn't you think that it would dry up? By reinforcing cultural problems with nudity being equal to sex - that is, parents teaching children that nudity is evil and making it equal to "sin" - haven't parents actually FUELED the pornography market?

To eliminate the temptation of pornography, why don't we teach that our bodies are not sinful and not shameful?

 

[dayhiker]

Very thoughtful post marlow ...
I like what you said.