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TheReasoner

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AGAIN, your argument is flawed because it assumes that all cultures are the same. They are not. In a culture where breasts are not commonly seen, then they should be covered. In a culture, such as tribal cultures in remote areas, where breasts are seen, and have been seen for thousands of years it is not a factor.

Paul's call to modesty does not mean you should go bare breasted in a culture where that is not socially acceptable. BUT in a culture where it is the norm, deviating too far from that norm can actually become indecent. I know this is hard for a person without much intercultural experience to understand, so I guess you'll have to take my word for it.
 
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IamRedeemed

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Shorts, cut to the bottom of your behind, is one thing. There are modest shorts. Christian women should not wear two piece bathingsuits in public for obvious reasons. There are modest bathing suit apparel available including the little skirts that you can walk around in while not in the water. We can choose not to get the one pieces, with the slit in the front all the way down to our belly buttons, and the thong back...have mercy.

We know the "culture" in most of the places you mentioned is highly sexual ALL the way around. What is acceptable to man, is usually not acceptable to God, unless a man has a renewed mind, having been washed by the water of the Word, so that his thoughtlife is changed from carnal to spiritual.

I agree that it is best for men to minister to men and vice versa when it comes to one on one. It definitely would not only reduce temptations but also eliminate false accusations or appearances of evil.

To compare people living highly sexual lifestyles in modernized countries to tribes is such a ridiculous comparison.


 
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IamRedeemed

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Her argument is NOT flawed, Your relativistic reasoning is.
You want to use oranges to talk about apples.



 
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TheReasoner

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Even they are immodest many places. And going back in time they'd have been terribly immodest even in the most liberal places.


No, it isn't. But you need to take a look at the US. I know of few places more sex-fixated than the falsely modest US of A. Also, I really think you're being a bit closeminded. Have you been outside the US for any length of time? (Canada doesn't count. Too similar.)
What you consider carnal may not be so. What you consider OK may very well not be so. I imagine you don't fret at the US diet of choice? Yet I am leaning towards calling it sinful. What about 'Christian' plastic toys made in china? Many of them are made in conditions worse than most slaves had in the US. I would consider buying them sinful. I guess you wouldn't. Maybe not until reading this anyway. And then there's Christmas. Yet all of these things are not really up to par when it comes to comparing it to nudity. Because these things actually harm people. They actually do a LOT of damage. Toplessness can too. But it is not universal. If you buy toys that support sweatshop labor - then that is pretty much universally immoral. Yet if you walk topless as a tribeswoman, it isn't. It isn't sexual in the least.

I agree that it is best for men to minister to men and vice versa when it comes to one on one. It definitely would not only reduce temptations but also eliminate false accusations or appearances of evil.

We agree on that, then. So it seems anyway.

To compare people living highly sexual lifestyles in modernized countries to tribes is such a ridiculous comparison.

Correction. It seems so because to YOU in YOUR culture the differences on this particular point are astronomical. That doesn't mean that in that tribal setting it is wrong. And it seems you agree that in these tribes it is OK to be topless.
What you fail to realize however is that even in the west there are huge cultural differences. My wife used to be a missionary in Kosovo. Kosovo albanians have huge cultural differences. Yet they themselves believe they have a mindset and a culture which is nearly identical to that of the US or western Europe. It's completely wrong. In the 80s it was normal for Kosovo men in villages to have two wives. When someone dies he spends a fair amount of time - post mortem - in his family livingroom. On the couch. Or on a bed in the garden. Weddings last for three days. Day -1 the bride to be is supposed to ball her eyes out while with friends. Day one she's supposed to keeo crying and I think she is supposed to cry even through day two. Day three she's supposed to be standing perfectly still in the husband's livingroom, after which he and his wife are ushered into a bedroom where they consumate. And the very next day she's supposed to clean the yard to a spotless, perfect yard.
The Kosovoalbanians have huge cultural differences from the rest of the west. So do the US. You don't realize it, but there are huge differences.
One can always spot American tourists by how loud they are. Always making their presence felt and heard long before you see them. It isn't wrong to be so loud. But if they were - for example - Norwegians acting like that, it would be seen as very very rude and arrogant.

These cultural differences are not necessarily bad. It isn't necessarily bad to be loud compared to what a Scandinavian is. It can be, if you're a Scandinavian. But it in itself isn't bad. It can be very bad not to clean your inlaws yard meticulously the day after your wedding. It isn't everywhere, but it is in Kosovo. It may be very bad to be topless, it isn't everywhere. But it is many places.
 
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TheReasoner

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Her argument is NOT flawed, Your relativistic reasoning is.
You want to use oranges to talk about apples.

No... Not really. And yes. It is flawed. You fail to realize the diversity in cultures. I want to talk about apples while using apples to talk about them. The problem is that you have so little experience with cultural differences it is practically impossible. How do you explain flight to someone who has neither seen nor heard of the possibility? Or colors to a man who was born blind?
I don't mean to sound derogatory here, nor arrogant. But really, it is a bigger issue than you think. Inexperience I mean. And while inexperience isn't wrong or evil, it can be a hindrance.
 
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Nadiine

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No, I think your argument is flawed becuz you are using CULTURE AS YOUR BASIS FOR WHAT IS MORAL, when Christians use the Bible and the Holy Spirit within us that guides us OUTSIDE OF AND DESPITE CULTURE/ WORLDLY TREND.

I again lift up the OT where God specifically tells His people that they are NOT to look like or practice what the worldly pagans/gentile/heathens were that surrounded them. That is clear evidence by example that we aren't to be guided by others in the world, but God.

God didn't tell them to "blend", He told them to be set apart as His holy people. We aren't called to live by cultures around us - worldly ones at that. They also have legal nude beaches; full frontal nudity, is that ok too?
Scripture has alot to say about nakedness - it's always tied in with judgment (spiritual and/or physical) punishment, or shame, dishonour, disgrace and poverty.

We have numerous NT scriptures saying not to live like the world, not to follow the world, to 'COME OUT FROM THEM & BE SEPARATE' unto God. Not to be conformed to the world but transformed by renewing our minds in Christ... etc.
That is not a call to follow the skin trends of the world that decide to go topless, nor it is to take street drugs when they become legal, promote or condone abortion or prostitution or homosexuality or anything else they decide is legally fine.

What of stumbling others with a 1/2 naked body? I see no promotion of it in scripture for general living and Adam & Eve knew to cover up at the fall before human population even started. They knew inwardly.

And again, you haven't listed for me any of the Christian leaders who were promoting open nudity for Christians in the past or present. I looked and haven't found any. There should be PLENTY of them if we're to be morally guided by culture over and above scripture command.
 
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IamRedeemed

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LJSGM

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You do not realize that your focus is on what you can and can't do, when it should be about how can you can serve the Lord better.

Romans 14:21
21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

If this is speaking of other Christian brothers, how much more so for those that do not know the Lord.

I would have to agree with nadine in this. The breasts are a sexual objects, and it's actually silly to deny this or ignore this fact. I have no desire to expose my privates to the public, but even if I did desire to do so, I would have no good reason or motives to do it (unless trying to attract attention from men, or vanity are good reasons) nor any reason to promote this behavior amoungst other christian women. Sure, I have exposed myself a little a few times... in order to breastfeed, but that serves a good purpose that isn't vanity or selfishness.


And yes, if I went to a muslim country and the women found it offensive what I wore and I could reach more for Christ by wearing a black robe I would wear it.

1 Corinthians 9
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


You don't have a very good grasp on what legalism is I'm afraid.
 
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IamRedeemed

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Nadiine

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Amsterdam legalizes street drugs, Canada legalized heroin clinics to oversee that people who use heroine shoot up correctly without causing aids, prostitution is legal in Amsterdam as well.
It's legal to commit abortion and partial birth in American culture, it's necessary to mutilate female genitalia in another country..

where do you want to go with how I need to follow other cultures to decide what's ok to do?
My morality and worldview is dictated by my Lord & Master, YHWY. NOT the world I live in.
 
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IamRedeemed

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IamRedeemed

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Glory to God!


 
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Nadiine

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Exactly. As Paul gave us the guidelines, we're to 'become like them to win them', but that is not at the cost of committing sin or harming the witness of Christ.
It is within means - meaning, we do not waltz in proudly & arrogantly flaunting how different we are to bring attn. to ourselves unecessarily - however, we are still to stay within the guidelines of what is Godly and righteous as Christians.

So in order to witness to some prostitutes, it doesn't warrent wearing indecent outfits & pimping our bodies out to fit in with them to win them over. We find ways to make them comfortable with us while remaining in line with God's standards for us so they focus on GOD IN US/thru us - not ourselves outwardly - our appearance.

Great post, the focus is all wrong in this: MEism
 
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IamRedeemed

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Yep. Spot on.


 
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TheReasoner

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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Though I would recommend, for purposes of broadening your horizons, to go outside the US more. Not that it will change your view. But it might teach you more about why others have their views.
 
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Nadiine

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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Though I would recommend, for purposes of broadening your horizons, to go outside the US more. Not that it will change your view. But it might teach you more about why others have their views.
I'd recommend more study in God's word and less focus on the WORLD around you.
The world won't be your judge, God will.

I know why the world has it's views & why they go 1/2 naked; God tells us many times over. They prefers flesh (carnality) over Spirit (over light and truth).
The condemnation is that men prefer darkness - this is what sets us apart from the world so we don't become like them.

The world will live in its chosen depravity; whatever it may be from country to country/ continent to continent, but they did that in biblical times too, and we have lots of scriptures of God talking about the judgment that will befall those cultures for their lifestyles and practices. Especially how they treated God's people.

I would still like to read all the prominant WORLD Christian leaders - top theologians thru the ages, church leaders, and see if they were all promoting public toplessness & nudity?
Where are the early church teachings on modesty? Are they condoning partial nudity? If not, why not?
 
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D'Ann

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I have a question...

When Adam and Eve were first created, they were created in God's own image and they were nude. Once they ate of the "Fruit" tree, they became knowledgeable. They recognized that they were naked and thus they sought some coverings.

So in esence, in tribal countries who practice nudity due to their own spiritual beliefs... systems... community... etc... are innocent because they don't "recognize" that they are naked, therefore, they cannot be held accountable for their nakedness due to their naiveness, thus, they do not try to clothe themselves.

That being said...

Those of us who do not live in a "tribal community", what is our excuse? Once Adam and Eve were no longer innocent and once they became aware of their own nakedness, even they had the good common sense to seek some type of coverings.

I would also like to add that throughout history, there are tons of examples in how men and women dressed and in how they covered up their bodies within the early and current Christian world. Could you imagine Mary and Martha walking around naked and showing their boobs in public? I can't.

I'm not saying it's wrong to be happy and grateful for your body. I'm not saying that we should be ashamed of our bodies in public or privately... but I do believe that we should care enough and respect ourselves enough to cover up our bodies... in a modest way.
 
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D'Ann

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On the Apparel of Women

Book I

Translated by the Rev. S. Thelwall.
Waiving the Question of the Authors, Tertullian Proposes to Consider the Things on Their Own Merits

Grant now that no mark of pre-condemnation has been branded on womanly pomp by the (fact of the) fate of its authors; let nothing be imputed to those angels besides their repudiation of heaven and (their) carnal marriage: let us examine the qualities of the things themselves, in order that we may detect the purposes also for which they are eagerly desired.
Female habit carries with it a twofold idea— dress and ornament. By dress we mean what they call womanly gracing; by ornament, what it is suitable should be called womanly disgracing. The former is accounted (to consist) in gold, and silver, and gems, and garments; the latter in care of the hair, and of the skin, and of those parts of the body which attract the eye. Against the one we lay the charge of ambition, against the other of prostitution; so that even from this early stage (of our discussion) you may look forward and see what, out of (all) these, is suitable, handmaid of God, to your discipline, inasmuch as you are assessed on different principles (from other women),— those, namely, of humility and chastity.


Modesty to Be Observed Not Only in Its Essence, But in Its Accessories

Handmaids of the living God, my fellow-servants and sisters, the right which I enjoy with you— I, the most meanest in that right of fellow-servantship and brotherhood— emboldens me to address to you a discourse, not, of course, of affection, but paving the way for affection in the cause of your salvation. That salvation— and not (the salvation) of women only, but likewise of men— consists in the exhibition principally of modesty. For since, by the introduction into an appropriation (in) us of the Holy Spirit, we are all the temple of God, Modesty is the sacristan and priestess of that temple, who is to suffer nothing unclean or profane to be introduced (into it), for fear that the God who inhabits it should be offended, and quite forsake the polluted abode. But on the present occasion we (are to speak) not about modesty, for the enjoining and exacting of which the divine precepts which press (upon us) on every side are sufficient; but about the matters which pertain to it, that is, the manner in which it behoves you to walk. For most women (which very thing I trust God may permit me, with a view, of course, to my own personal censure, to censure in all), either from simple ignorance or else from dissimulation, have the hardihood so to walk as if modesty consisted only in the (bare) integrity of the flesh, and in turning away from (actual) fornication; and there were no need for anything extrinsic to boot— in the matter (I mean) of the arrangement of dress and ornament, the studied graces of form and brilliance:— wearing in their gait the self-same appearance as the women of the nations, from whom the sense of true modesty is absent, because in those who know not God, the Guardian and Master of truth, there is nothing true. For if any modesty can be believed (to exist) in Gentiles, it is plain that it must be imperfect and undisciplined to such a degree that, although it be actively tenacious of itself in the mind up to a certain point, it yet allows itself to relax into licentious extravagances of attire; just in accordance with Gentile perversity, in craving after that of which it carefully shuns the effect. How many a one, in short, is there who does not earnestly desire even to look pleasing to strangers? who does not on that very account take care to have herself painted out, and denies that she has (ever) been an object of (carnal) appetite? And yet, granting that even this is a practice familiar to Gentile modesty— (namely,) not actually to commit the sin, but still to be willing to do so; or even not to be willing, yet still not quite to refuse— what wonder? for all things which are not God's are perverse. Let those women therefore look to it, who, by not holding fast the whole good, easily mingle with evil even what they do hold fast. Necessary it is that you turn aside from them, as in all other things, so also in your gait; since you ought to be perfect, as (is) your Father who is in the heavens.

LINK
 
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Iskra

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We know the "culture" in most of the places you mentioned is highly sexual ALL the way around.

What highly sexual cultures are you talking about here? I can assure you that contrary to the old myth, scandinavia isn't that sexual as you might expect. The fact is that sex seems to play a much larger role in the public life in USA than it does in for exaple Sweden. With this I mean a sexual undertone that plays a important role in everything from commersials to music and movies and different products. Maybe this focus on nudity in USA is the result from a false modesty that makes nudity such a big thing.


Do you go to church, school or work in a swimsuite?


As to the base question. You argument as if it was a global truth that bare breasts are sexual in all contexts, this just isn't true. If you cannot understand this then it must be asumed that this is the result of severe uninterest for the world around you.

When Paul talked about decent clothing he meant that you should wear and behave in a way that isn't provocative and sexual to the people around you, and if bare breasts qualifies to this then it is decent, what is decent depends on culture and context. One hundred years ago decent clothing meant for exaple that you couldn't show your bare ancles. Today and in the society you live in bare ancle hardly is seen as indecent and sexually provocative, right? When the Bible was written decent clothing included that a woman covers her head, but you don't always wear a hat or veil, do you?
 
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IamRedeemed

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