Tookie's Death

[Mandevar]

I was rather suprised to not see a single post about Stanley Tookie Williams death sentence. I live in California and am constantly reminded of this. He is to be executed via lethal injection at 12:01 a.m. on Tuesday December 13, just a minute after midnight. Our governator (sadly, I typed that out when I meant "governor") denied clemency.

Is it not strange that we can predict a man's death? We will know exactly how and when Tookie will die. We know exactly when another human being will die. He is alive now. Alive. In just six hours he will be killed. Murdered.

I am not sure how a vast majority of californians can support the murder of a man because they believe it is justice. Convicted of killing 4 people, of ending their life, his life must now end? WHY?

I hate to live in a country where we can legally murder people.

I weep for humanity.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I was rather suprised to not see a single post about Stanley Tookie Williams death sentence. I live in California and am constantly reminded of this. He is to be executed via lethal injection at 12:01 a.m. on Tuesday December 13, just a minute after midnight. Our governator (sadly, I typed that out when I meant "governor") denied clemency.

Is it not strange that we can predict a man's death? We will know exactly how and when Tookie will die. We know exactly when another human being will die. He is alive now. Alive. In just six hours he will be killed. Murdered.

Not murdered. Executed. Consult a dictionary.

I am not sure how a vast majority of californians can support the murder of a man because they believe it is justice. Convicted of killing 4 people, of ending their life, his life must now end? WHY?

So that he will never do it again.

I hate to live in a country where we can legally murder people.

You don't. By definition, you cannot 'legally murder'.

 

[Cerberus~]

The term is kill. The man murdered 4 people, and he won't even cop to it now, even though he's admitted it to other prisoners. It takes a mighty helpin of malice and hatred to do what he did. I don't weep that that malice and hatred is being destroyed, though I wouldn't mind him having to spend the rest of his natural born days behind bars.

 

[revrobor]

I am not sure how a vast majority of californians can support the murder of a man because they believe it is justice. Convicted of killing 4 people, of ending their life, his life must now end? WHY?

Because is is the law of the land. It's a Biblical principle that there are consequences for actions taken. He knew the consequences when he murdered those people. God may forgive his sin but that does not remove the consequences.

 

[Mandevar]

Not murdered. Executed. Consult a dictionary.

"mur·der
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v. tr.

1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances. "

dictionary.com ---- True, it is "legal." But ethically I do not believe it is or should be (just like slavery, women voting, etc wasnt). That is the point I am trying to make. It is the killing of another human being. So "legally killed."

So that he will never do it again.

Do you really believe that prisons cannot keep a person away from society? Do you believe people escape on a regular basis, thats why we execute them? It is not difficult to ensure prisoners remain in prison.

 

[Mandevar]

The term is kill. The man murdered 4 people, and he won't even cop to it now, even though he's admitted it to other prisoners. It takes a mighty helpin of malice and hatred to do what he did. I don't weep that that malice and hatred is being destroyed, though I wouldn't mind him having to spend the rest of his natural born days behind bars.

Nor would I. That should be his punishment. It does not mean we have a right to take his life. The right to cause suffering to his family, followers, and friends for what reason? Why are we killing him?

 

[Mandevar]

Because is is the law of the land. It's a Biblical principle that there are consequences for actions taken. He knew the consequences when he murdered those people. God may forgive his sin but that does not remove the consequences.

It is not only a biblical principle. Every action has a reaction. You are saying that he knew the death penalty was in effect and therefore should have not killed. Thats not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is why do we kill him? Why end his life? What does it accomplish?

 

[Electric Sceptic]

dictionary.com ---- True, it is "legal." But ethically I do not believe it is or should be (just like slavery, women voting, etc wasnt). That is the point I am trying to make. It is the killing of another human being. So "legally killed."

Yes, "legally killed" would be correct.

Do you really believe that prisons cannot keep a person away from society? Do you believe people escape on a regular basis, thats why we execute them? It is not difficult to ensure prisoners remain in prison.

Of course prisons can't keep a person away from society. It is, in fact, extremely difficult to ensure prisoners remain in prison. A 'life' sentence doesn't mean for life, and no matter what sentence is given, a future judge, board or government may decide to change it.

There is NO way to ensure a person remains in prison for the rest of his life. None at all.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

Simple really:
-Not worth the tax dollars to sustain him, hes never going back to society. To bad that injection is so expensive. A 10c bullet would be a cheaper, just as effective alternative.
-Sets an example: one commits multiple first degree murders and one dies.
-Who cares about his followers? Why should anyone support a brutal murderer? Btw, check your dictionary again, murder involves a key word: unlawful. Executions are lawful and therefore not murder.
-Prisons are no gaurantee of anything.
-A potential sense of closure for the victems famillies. Why should anyone care about the perp?

 

[Mandevar]

Of course prisons can't keep a person away from society. It is, in fact, extremely difficult to ensure prisoners remain in prison. A 'life' sentence doesn't mean for life, and no matter what sentence is given, a future judge, board or government may decide to change it.

There is NO way to ensure a person remains in prison for the rest of his life. None at all.

Do you believe people can change? Can you not learn what you've done in the past was wrong? Do you think prisons are not also meant to rehabilitate people?

How often do people who are sentenced for life get out of prison? How many of them kill?

 

[DaRkWoLf]

Do you believe people can change? Can you not learn what you've done in the past was wrong? Do you think prisons are not also meant to rehabilitate people?

How often do people who are sentenced for life get out of prison? How many of them kill?

American prisons arent renound for their rehabilitative abilities.

Too many.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Do you believe people can change?

Yes.

Can you not learn what you've done in the past was wrong?

Yes.

Do you think prisons are not also meant to rehabilitate people?

No. If they are, they are doing an extraordinarily bad job.

How often do people who are sentenced for life get out of prison?

Virtually all of them who don't die before their sentence is up. 'Life' means about 20 years.

How many of them kill?

Don't know. One is too many.

 

[Mandevar]

Simple really:
-Not worth the tax dollars to sustain him, hes never going back to society. To bad that injection is so expensive. A 10c bullet would be a cheaper, just as effective alternative.
-Sets an example: one commits multiple first degree murders and one dies.
-Who cares about his followers? Why should anyone support a brutal murderer? Btw, check your dictionary again, murder involves a key word: unlawful. Executions are lawful and therefore not murder.
-Prisons are no gaurantee of anything.
-A potential sense of closure for the victems famillies. Why should anyone care about the perp?

-Can you not be a productive member of society through prison? Someone has to make lisence plates! (to lighten the mood)
The price of the way he is killed should have little to do with this topic. The point is why are we killing him.

-I have not heard from any source that the death penalty has any effect on American society and the murder rate. Most people who murder probably feel they wont be caught so it will not apply to them. I dont think when people murder someone they are thinking... "wow I may be executed because of this"

-Prisoners can and will remain in prison.

-Anyone who wants to see another person die to fill a void in their life or thinks it will should probably rethink their mentality. Killing Tookie may cause more suffering to his family and friends and people he has affected and it may also cause the victims family to feel guilty after the fact. All it can cause is more suffering.

We should care about the perp because he is a human being.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Killing Tookie may cause more suffering to his family and friends and people he has affected and it may also cause the victims family to feel guilty after the fact. All it can cause is more suffering.

False. It can - and will - prevent him from ever killing again.

 

[Mandevar]

No. If they are, they are doing an extraordinarily bad job.

But isnt that the intended purpose? Our prison system definitly needs to be reformed, but executing another person does not advance this cause. It is a seperate issue.

Virtually all of them who don't die before their sentence is up. 'Life' means about 20 years.


Don't know. One is too many.

Can anyone shed some light on statistics. How many of them do get out and kill? How many become better people? But once again that has to do with our prison system, which has many flaws. It has little to do with the reason people are killed in prison. How does killing someone right?

False. It can - and will - prevent him from ever killing again.

(skipped ahead) Once again, that has to do with the prison system. We shouldn't kill people to prevent them from killing again. We should lock them up for the rest of their life. Not executing Tookie can still prevent more needless suffering if we could ensure he could not be removed from prison.

 

[markbelieves]

Nor would I. That should be his punishment. It does not mean we have a right to take his life. The right to cause suffering to his family, followers, and friends for what reason? Why are we killing him?

Followers? How do people like this end up with followers? I think that is sad.

Somewhere in California tonight, there will be someone, innocent, that will die - alone. A victim of poverty, or some other criminal and yet these 'followers' are trying to protect this fine gentleman.

Crazy world we live in.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

But isnt that the intended purpose? Our prison system definitly needs to be reformed, but executing another person does not advance this cause. It is a seperate issue.

Is it?

Can anyone shed some light on statistics. How many of them do get out and kill? How many become better people? But once again that has to do with our prison system, which has many flaws. It has little to do with the reason people are killed in prison. How does killing someone right?

Once again, it prevents him from ever doing it again.

Once again, that has to do with the prison system. We shouldn't kill people to prevent them from killing again.

Why not? Sounds like an excellent solution to me.

We should lock them up for the rest of their life.

It's impossible. Not just under our current laws and judicial system - it will ALWAYS be impossible, because no matter what laws and so forth you pass, someone in the future might change them.

There is NO way to lock someone up and be certain it is for the rest of their life.

Not executing Tookie can still prevent more needless suffering if we could ensure he could not be removed from prison.

We cannot. Ever. And I'm not in the least interested in preventing his suffering.

 

[Mandevar]

Followers? How do people like this end up with followers? I think that is sad.

Somewhere in California tonight, there will be someone, innocent, that will die - alone. A victim of poverty, or some other criminal and yet these 'followers' are trying to protect this fine gentleman.

Crazy world we live in.

I, in no way support or am affected byTookie or his work. But others are, I accept this. He has written children stories and apparently reformed his life; people value this. I don't know how his work has affected others, but apparently it has in a positive way, and for this I value their judgements. I don't really care what he did, the fact that he (a human being) is being killed is wrong.

I am a product of the American media. I am sure you know how selfish America is, how we don't care (or show it) about children starving in other countries or human right violations around the globe, but this is something that has caught the attention of many Americans.

Of course it is a crazy world. A sad, lonely, cruel world. That is why I weep for humanity. This is just one situation, of course people needlessly die all around the globe, but stick to the reasons why people think the killing of another human being can be justified. Why are we killing him?

 

[Mandevar]

Is it?

It should be. But, that is a seperate issue.

Once again, it prevents him from ever doing it again.

Why not? Sounds like an excellent solution to me.

It's impossible. Not just under our current laws and judicial system - it will ALWAYS be impossible, because no matter what laws and so forth you pass, someone in the future might change them.

There is NO way to lock someone up and be certain it is for the rest of their life.

We cannot. Ever. And I'm not in the least interested in preventing his suffering.

We are going in circles. Keeping him locked in prison forever prevents him from killing again. Why should we resort to executing him? This is why I don't see this statement is justified. Why can't we lock him in prison forever? You say they can get out, well thats the problem then, them getting out, not having to execute him. Executing him does not save more lives if we could lock him up properly.

You dont believe the prison system can EVER ensure its prisoners remain away from society? I believe it can. You say it is impossible. If we can ensure 1000 prisoners remain in prison and not have to exectute them, and even one escapes, we have saved 999 lives. You think they deserve to die, I do not. No one deserves to die.

You not wanting to prevent his suffering disheartens me. I am sure Tookie has changed, ideally I would hope he realized what he did was wrong and would apologize--but he hasnt. That is why I believe he should remain in prison for the rest of his life.

 

[Mandevar]

American prisons arent renound for their rehabilitative abilities.

Too many.

Of course, but this is a larger issue that should be discussed elsewhere. Executing another being does not advance this cause. Justifty execution.