Tongues

[lismore]

Who gave you the idea that tongues aren't languages, be they earthly, heavenly, or new?

Hi there

In my opinion all tongues are actual languages as you said above, earthly, heavenly etc. Bear in mind that there are thousands of languages on earth, thousands have died out and many are spoken only by small groups. We dont know how many heavenly languages there are. The native language of my country has 2000 variations and dialects alone.

In my life I have experienced tongues translated from the following languages by people who understood the languages:

Scottish Gaelic
Irish Gaelic
Spanish
French
Egyptian Arabic
Farsi
Ancient Greek

One was recorded so we could listen to it again and again with the translation books to see we had got the full message from God.



Lismore

 

[Ormly]

Am I the only one who thinks this might just be a troll job?

Wrong word--- dripping would be more accurate.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Wrong word--- dripping would be more accurate.

Huh?

 

[Ormly]

Huh?

Not HuH --- dripping

 

[KleinerApfel]

Not HuH --- dripping

I don't know what's going on any more. Maybe next year will make sense to me.

 

[Schmitty]

.... i don't mind the post, but Please people don't go off topic.

I never said Lanuages were limited to only earthly lanuages. I don't know where your going off on.... but heres a interesting idea, if you can phyiscally hear it, then it's a Physical lanuage. *nods*

-------------
One of you asked me how i delt with Corithians 14:2,
"The Greek word that translates to tongue(s) is interchangeable with the word lanuage(s), in reguards to speach an such."

1 Corinthians 14:2
"For anyone who speaks in a tongue [lanuage] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit."

English is a lanuage. So does that mean all those that understand english don't understand me? At first glance it sounds like a ear piercing contradiction; but theres more to it then meets the eye.
"For anyone who speaks in a tongue [lanuage] does not speak to men but to God"
Contradiction?
Explination: From the first line we learn that anyone who speaks in a tongue, also speaks only God.
The verse doesn't require that the words of our lanuage be only to God. Just as i can speak and wink at the same time, commenitcating to 2 different people at the same time; so there can be more going everytime anyone speaks then what meets the eye. Speach is communication. Just as words have a voice they can also speak (a example). Likewise our heart is known by God, an sense only he can see it, it commmunicates to Him and not men.

"Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit." The first thing to note is that the verse doesn't say no one understands his physical speach, but rather the verse clearly says no one understands him (the person themselfs). Speach is a form of expressing. Our uttering is a expression rooted in who we are. An sense the expression is plural, the mystery is plural as well.

 

[Schmitty]

also to you who said that nothing is better then holding a conversation with the creator....

i agree, an my english works just find. *bigggg smiely** words are words, spanish? english? *shrugs* God is beyound our galaxy, i can't see words being more then just feeble words to the most high God

 

[Ormly]

also to you who said that nothing is better then holding a conversation with the creator....

i agree, an my english works just find. *bigggg smiely** words are words, spanish? english? *shrugs* God is beyound our galaxy, i can't see words being more then just feeble words to the most high God

But you really don't know what to pray for, do you? I mean, do you have the mind of God in the matter? I'll just bet Yer off yer knees going about your business after about about 2-3 mins .. Paul sez "pray without ceasing" all day long. How do you do that?

BTW, You think english will be the language of heaven? If not, why not?

As has aleready been pointed out by someone there are reasons why praying with the mind, aside from making our petitions which God already knows about, is fruitless.

Why don't you read Post #17 and argue from that point of view?

 

[ChristianMuse]

Hey bro..
Good post!
How do you deal with 1 Cor 14:2?

1Co 14:2
2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

There needs to be a clarification. There are tongues that are spoken in a group setting and need to be interpreted for edification of the church (listeners*). There are tongues for personal prayer that is for self-edification. Both are mentioned in the scriptures. There is also a groaning of the Spirit for God's prayer in a person that cannot be vocalized.

*I have found that there is an exception to the first example, when tongues were spoken by someone not knowing the language but it was the native language of one or more people with a specific word for that person or group alone. (Such as it was for the visitors to the feast of Pentecost after the ressurection of Jesus.)

 

[rapturefish]

Two things:

1) I am tired. There is nothing wrong with saying it. I post repeatedly on tongues and the same question comes up again and again, even though archives of previous threads are available. That's not the problem. But here's the dilemma - we like it when people are searching and enquiring; but we get tired of debating when others are trying to tell you about tongues when obviously they don't understand what they are talking about. Yet one can't stay silent about it.

2) Yes, I've heard the word for tongue in 1 Cor. is usually = languages. In practice though, one finds that there are tongues of a known language and tongues of unknown (angelic?) origin. And the ones of unknown (angelic?) origin tend not to follow any grammatical pattern and appear without syntax, stucture or anything comparable to a known language. In other words it doesn't appear to be a language in the worldly definition. Yet it does edify the speaker and can be interpreted by spiritually-enabled or gifted people.

Still, it's a moot point. One doesn't know what one is saying when they speak in the tongue Paul talks about, neither does anyone else present unless a person with a gift of interpretation is around. This implies the tongue is spiritually enabled and the interpretation of the tongue also spiritually enabled. They are supernatural gifts. Why Paul uses the word for tongue as he does probably is because that is the immediate word that comes to mind since a person speaks it. He could not have known that it was anything more than a language, being unknown to him.

I suggest the best thing to do is simply call these unknown tongues a mystery and leave it at that, rather than put forward a hypothesis and call it something more emphatic than that. Paul says that those who speak in a tongue speak mysteries, which at the very least means something hidden. He contrasts this with prophecy and the distinction made is that prophecy is understood and so people are edified.

I think it's splitting hairs when trying to say that the tongue can be understood but not the person - the message is unknown because no-one interprets it. The person is not understood because the tongue is not interpreted. He doesn't understand it, neither does anyone else.

blessings,

RF <><

 

[rapturefish]

I see tongues as being more than a mere language in the natural sense. I know because when I use it, in the natural it sounds as something without order and someone unfamiliar with it may well conclude that it is (*cringe*) "gibberish", for want of a less negative term. But it is something that has a mysterious effect of edification for the speaker. Certainly it is very natural to praise and worship God after or during speaking in tongues. It is also something that mysteriously prays to God and bypassing the mind's understanding, as the scripture says. In fact, it prays more effectively and beyond the limits of praying with mere natural languages and words.

When people who do not speak in tongues or are unfamiliar with the phenomenon firest-hand try to explain tongues merely by reading the bible like a manual, all kinds of seemingly logical (but flawed) explanations come out. The understanding is borne out in practice and that experience puts the instruction in the appropriate light. The bible mentions tongues but it is hard to understand until one moves in it. And I think that those who do move in it are better qualified to bring light to the meaning of what scripture says on tongues.

blessings,

RF <><

 

[ChristianMuse]

That is why I listed in my previous post three ways in which the Spirit speaks. The first two are from personal experience. The third, the Spirit groaning within I have observed from others... yet I am not certain if the person who utters it is right or wrong. (unless I get a personal witness from the Spirit) All three ways are found in scripture. On languages, sometimes a mystery language, sometimes a known language not known by the speaker, sometimes deep utterances from the Spirit that cannot be vocalized.

I think part of the problem is self-perception of the experience. It seems unreal to those who have not experienced one, two or all three of the ways it manifests. The point is not what one person has experienced but what do the scriptures say. Then keep an open heart so faith can move the tongue when the Spirit gives utterance. The environment and context of the tongue should be taken into account when judging what was the purpose and the target audience for the tongue message.

 

[Schmitty]

But you really don't know what to pray for, do you? I mean, do you have the mind of God in the matter? I'll just bet Yer off yer knees going about your business after about about 2-3 mins .. Paul sez "pray without ceasing" all day long. How do you do that?

BTW, You think english will be the language of heaven? If not, why not?

As has aleready been pointed out by someone there are reasons why praying with the mind, aside from making our petitions which God already knows about, is fruitless.

Why don't you read Post #17 and argue from that point of view?

1.) i do know what to pray for. Jesus taught us how to pray. Pray for God's will. I want nothing God doesn't want. God is all powerful, and nothing is beyound him. He accomplishes all he sets out to do, and in this i find unspeakable comfort and peace.

2.)
Hold Up, Paul says the mind is edified when you pray with it. How is that fruitless? See, both my soul and mind are edified when i pray and know what i'm praying.... regardless of the forum of communication. To exalt one lanuage above another in regards of edifaction is unscriptural

 

[Schmitty]

There needs to be a clarification. There are tongues that are spoken in a group setting and need to be interpreted for edification of the church (listeners*). There are tongues for personal prayer that is for self-edification. Both are mentioned in the scriptures. There is also a groaning of the Spirit for God's prayer in a person that cannot be vocalized.

*I have found that there is an exception to the first example, when tongues were spoken by someone not knowing the language but it was the native language of one or more people with a specific word for that person or group alone. (Such as it was for the visitors to the feast of Pentecost after the ressurection of Jesus.)

Thx for replying about what i posted an not going steriotyping me as the average challenger of tongues.

But, i don't see the clearfication. I still see Cor 14:2 as the word tongue being interchangable with the word lanuage; and thus it applies to every lanuage. Even english. Given such a case, the explination i proved earlyer is the only logical solution. It doesn't say anything about a mystical prayer lanuage as far as my reasoning goes though would like to see your guys's replies

 

[brother daniel]

Thx for replying about what i posted an not going steriotyping me as the average challenger of tongues.

But, i don't see the clearfication. I still see Cor 14:2 as the word tongue being interchangable with the word lanuage; and thus it applies to every lanuage. Even english. Given such a case, the explination i proved earlyer is the only logical solution. It doesn't say anything about a mystical prayer lanuage as far as my reasoning goes though would like to see your guys's replies

its all according to your faith. the most important thing is can you hear God talking to you NOW?
Loving your neighbor is a lot more important than talking in tongues and I do both.
What you need to be doing is asking God about this. He will give you the answer and you wont have to fuss over it any more.
Everything God ever offered is still avalible. Ask and ye shall receave , seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.
With love in Christ, brother daniel

 

[Schmitty]

well the reason i brought it up is cause it's like the only verse that potentially acknowledges the reality of heavenly lanuages.... personally there is so much more i should take before God.


But i totally agree with you. If God rose Hitler from the dead and gave him the gift of healing, would that make anything good about Hilter? would that make him any more rightoues? any closer to God? nope.

It's all about Love. Love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and is the Holy Spirit in us. Speaking in tongues is a gift through the Holy Spirit. Love and Faith are the Holy Spirit in us.

that's how i look at it thx dude for replying, peace bro

 

[God_follower]

Yes Love is the ultimate goal, but if something helps me get to that goal, then shouldnt i use that? good

You dont always know what to pray for and no praying that God's will be done isnt good enough, because its not specific, and its going to happen anyways. Sometimes God gives you a person to pray for, if you dont know their situation... then you dont know what to pray.

The Mind does become unfruitful when we speak in tounges, because its the spirit praying through us, well our spirit and the Holy Spirit. The spirit is built up not the mind, the mind just kinda shuts down whilst speaking in tounges, because its the faith that makes the words mean something, not them being words or not. It works like that.

I'm not sure why you are trying to make something that was intended to be spiritual and make it just a natural action, doesnt that take away from it a bit... yes it does. How do you get that we dont understand the person but only what they are saying, that doesnt make much sence and its kinda grabbing for some straws. If it bothers you because pagans mumble to Satan or the sun or their boots, then thats find, it doesnt prevent you from going to heaven if you dont do it, its just a tool. You can use it or not.

And i would bet that if God ressurected Hitler and gave him the ability to heal people, then i think that Hitler would be a very powerful force for God because he has been dead for a while and knows that he was wrong so when he hits this earth he would be repenting up a storm.. to encounter the Love and forgiveness of God.

I have more but this is all i wanna say right now

God bless.

 

[God_follower]

On a similar note, not everything in the Spirit makes logical sence. A logical person would say that Jesus could not have been born of a virgin because you can't make a baby without a mommy and a daddy. Hey, it happened, oops there goes the whole logic thing. I'm not saying that logic doesnt work in most cases, just that going about finding God through logic isnt going to work... yes words have meanings, but not all of them are significant.

 

[Ormly]

1.) i do know what to pray for. Jesus taught us how to pray. Pray for God's will. I want nothing God doesn't want. God is all powerful, and nothing is beyound him. He accomplishes all he sets out to do, and in this i find unspeakable comfort and peace.

But God's will is that you become a son in whom He can be well pleased. "Thy kingdom come in me". That's the prayer, isn;t it? ---and it's a process to be sure. So as long as we are in the process of becoming can we not say that IS God's will for all our lives? If we are in the process then the day to day specifics will take care of themselves and we will be learning how to have the mind of God in any matter.---by the things we suffer.--- as Jesus did.

2.)
Hold Up, Paul says the mind is edified when you pray with it. How is that fruitless? See, both my soul and mind are edified when i pray and know what i'm praying.... regardless of the forum of communication. To exalt one lanuage above another in regards of edifaction is unscriptural

Not in the least. --- and how can your mind be "strengthened" by your understanding of what you pray or think you should pray for?


1 Cor. 14:14 (NASB-U)
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 14:4 (NASB-U)
One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; [builds himself up in his faith --his soul, the life of Christ within him.]

Intimacy is the issue. Read my post #17. Study it because the answer is there.