• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Tongues

Schmitty

Active Member
Dec 27, 2004
36
1
Ca
✟161.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Speaking in tongues
I believe in "tongues" (lanuages) and that they can be learned instantly (/insert any period of time you wish) as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Right now your reading my writing in the tongue of English. If i wrote in spanish it'd be the tongue of Spanish. But...i refuse to believe anything more about tongues (lanuages) then what the bible teaches.

The greek word that some translate to tongues is interchangeable with the word lanuage
when you come across tongue(s) in the bible (unless it's refering to the physical tongue not in regards to speach)you can replace it with the word "lanuage(s)"
When Paul was talking bout don't pray in lanuages that others can't understand
he didn't ever say there was a speical mystical prayer lanuage
sure, the pagans had a rambling "lanuage" way before christ, but it's only a lanuage if it can be understood, translated word by word etc. etc.
the whole idea of a prayer lanuage.... a lanuage is a lanuage
what are words to the most high God? just feeble words

As Martin Luther said, "Unless i am convenced by scripture and plain reasoning i cannot and will not recant. God help me"
 

PastorSherm

Senior Member
Aug 15, 2004
681
37
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟23,530.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Schmitty said:
Speaking in tongues
I believe in "tongues" (lanuages) and that they can be learned instantly (/insert any period of time you wish) as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Right now your reading my writing in the tongue of English. If i wrote in spanish it'd be the tongue of Spanish. But...i refuse to believe anything more about tongues (lanuages) then what the bible teaches.

The greek word that some translate to tongues is interchangeable with the word lanuage
when you come across tongue(s) in the bible (unless it's refering to the physical tongue not in regards to speach)you can replace it with the word "lanuage(s)"
When Paul was talking bout don't pray in lanuages that others can't understand
he didn't ever say there was a speical mystical prayer lanuage
sure, the pagans had a rambling "lanuage" way before christ, but it's only a lanuage if it can be understood, translated word by word etc. etc.
the whole idea of a prayer lanuage.... a lanuage is a lanuage
what are words to the most high God? just feeble words

As Martin Luther said, "Unless i am convenced by scripture and plain reasoning i cannot and will not recant. God help me"
ok :D
 
Upvote 0

Schmitty

Active Member
Dec 27, 2004
36
1
Ca
✟161.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
don't get what Sherm means but sure.... i think he's laughing or something. hmmm
Brother Adam said:
Who gave you the idea that tongues aren't languages, be they earthly, heavenly, or new?
that's not my point, my point is that Tongues are nothing more then lanuages. Nothing more. My gift of speaking english is as spiritual as any other sound anyone can make (an i was raised speaking it). Sound lacks spirituality.
 
Upvote 0

PastorSherm

Senior Member
Aug 15, 2004
681
37
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟23,530.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Schmitty said:
don't get what Sherm means but sure.... i think he's laughing or something. hmmm
I'm just not sure if you are looking for an argument or a debate. I speak in tounges...could it be an Earthly language? I don't know..I only speak English{barely, according to my wife lol}. Don't take offense please, but if you are looking to debate this, I really think it's been beat to death. I'm just tired of taking up the challenge..maybe somebody here is not tired of it..I just choose to stay away from these threads.
 
Upvote 0

Andrew

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2002
4,974
24
✟21,360.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Schmitty said:
Speaking in tongues
I believe in "tongues" (lanuages) and that they can be learned instantly (/insert any period of time you wish) as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Right now your reading my writing in the tongue of English. If i wrote in spanish it'd be the tongue of Spanish. But...i refuse to believe anything more about tongues (lanuages) then what the bible teaches.

The greek word that some translate to tongues is interchangeable with the word lanuage
when you come across tongue(s) in the bible (unless it's refering to the physical tongue not in regards to speach)you can replace it with the word "lanuage(s)"
When Paul was talking bout don't pray in lanuages that others can't understand
he didn't ever say there was a speical mystical prayer lanuage
sure, the pagans had a rambling "lanuage" way before christ, but it's only a lanuage if it can be understood, translated word by word etc. etc.
the whole idea of a prayer lanuage.... a lanuage is a lanuage
what are words to the most high God? just feeble words

As Martin Luther said, "Unless i am convenced by scripture and plain reasoning i cannot and will not recant. God help me"

I think you are in the wrong forum. This is a charismatic forum and you are not going to to able to convince us that tongues is nothing more than normal earthly languages.
 
Upvote 0

rapturefish

Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad
May 9, 2002
614
50
Sydney
✟25,150.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I'm starting to feel tired too...

I have several questions that should be addressed before even starting on any response to the statement in the OP. First, is it fair to make an assertion on something to people who have obviously not only believe otherwise, but in most cases have experienced first-hand or have ear-witness accounts that validate the fact that tongues are more than earthly "normal" languages?

It's like coming up to an astronaut or alien and telling him that the sun revolves around the earth. Sure, it looks that way to a person on the earth, but to the astronaut who has been up there and experienced first-hand the effect of the earth revolving around the sun, it's incorrect.

I can only tell my story and let others decide. I grew up in baptist, presbyterian, uniting and evangelical churches and was a pretty headstrong and active layman in the church. I believed the spiritual gifts were not for today by default - in other words, because I believed what I was taught in the churches I was brought up in and never really questioned it. It seemed quite irrelevant a topic.

That all changed when through a personal crisis happened in the church I was at and my faith was basically shot. Through this God led me to a charismatic church and eventually I reached a place where I surrendered to God and was healed emotionally of the pain of being abused psychologically by a fellow church layperson. This led to a re-evaluation of the spiritual gifts - after all, if God could heal me of an emotional hurt in pretty much one day, then what else could he do?

I read a great deal about spiritual gifts and tongues and talked to people. I desired the gift of tongues for myself, and grew to learn that I was to really desire God above all in asking for it. My mindset changed and I came to believe that tongues were not just a language but a spiritual gift as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14. And it was not a gift to stick your tongue at (sorry 'bout the pun) but to embrace as of God for praise, prayer and worship.

Having reached this place in my mind I was prayed for by people during a conference on spiritual gifts. The great thing was God didn't impart the gift to me there at the conference; he imparted it to me when I was at home alone and very sober and at peace. In other words, he made sure that my receiving tongues was not a matter of the typical arguments evangelicals have to explain away tongues - psychological manipulation, peer pressure or coercion, etc. I sought the gift on my own initiative and in obedience to God's leading. I received it in a way that showed it had to be of God and nothing outside.

Having tongues and operating in this spiritual gift helped to bring the bible to light in regard to what it says about tongues. The verses that say that people who speak in tongues do not understand what they are saying, for example - it is cryptic until one operates in tongues. I know that I do not understand what I am saying when I speak in tongues. However, I also know that it has an edifying effect on my spirit if I persist in it, as the bible also says. I have also heard and encountered cases where people have spoken in tongues in the church assembly and it has been interpreted and edified everyone present. This brings to light the bible's words on the subject as written by Paul.

I can understand the attempts by some to explain away the phenomenon of tongues in Pentecostal and charismatic circles. I know because I was one of them. But in all fairness might I say that much can be gained if people on both sides are willing to be open-minded and receptive to the possibility that there is something to tongues, even though on the outside it appears to be nonsensical. Remember, man looks at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. Please look at the heart of what people in P/C churches are about - they are christians just as evangelicals are christians and we all worship the same God of grace. You will find that many P/C's are passionate, alive people who love Jesus and have an intimacy with Him that is to be desired by all. And they also respect the word of God as much as any evangelical.

P/Cs likewise need to show grace and respond to threads like these with patience and humility. The gifts and graces we have are ours by God's grace and our place before God is the same place as any believer outside of Pentecostal or charismatic christianity. We want others to share in those same blessings and the best way is to let our conversation be saturated with grace. Even though I still feel tired answering these sorts of threads I know this remains an opportunity to share what God has given in tongues and spiritual gifts.

blessings,

RF :D <><
 
  • Like
Reactions: KleinerApfel
Upvote 0

sweetrevival

Veteran
Dec 28, 2004
1,092
63
72
Woodstock, Australia
✟1,542.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I am a little saddened by 2 of the posts referring to being bored or tired of this subject. May I kindly suggest that if that is the case, you not participate.

As to the topic of tongues. It is the most powerful, most uplifting, most satisfying, most intimate conversation you will ever have in your life, because it is your direct -read not using an interpreter, not having to decode - direct communication with the God we all profess to love and believe in. And what more could we want in our lives on this earth than direct communication with Him.

What makes it vital that all believers seek this gift is this. Satan has control of the atmosphere but cannot read our minds, when we speak out we inform him of our intentions. And we often speak in his language, which is that of sickness and anger, ie You make me sick, I hate you, etc.

When we communicate with God is our special tongue, satan has no way of knowing or eaves dropping on our conversation. That is something to be desired, isn't it?

As to the tongues themselves, I have observed that I had to learn my language over period of time, and i have identified at least 2 different ones. When I sing in prayer and talk in prayer it is soft and lyrical and comforting. When I speak in warlike situations it is fast and strong and powerful and I feel amazingly energetic.

If you listen to real tongues (and I can tell you that there is a lot of pretend ones out there), you will hear that it has all the depth and control of a conventional language, words can be identified. At times I will know in my English speaking self what I am saying, as I am speaking in my tongue language. Other times I can sing in my language and without a moments hesitation keep singing in english.

There is also a lot of times when God and I have conversations in English, which is more on the daily level. Just hanging out kind of talk.

And to bring tongues to a basic level - every trade has its own words and language, have you ever read a legal document and been able to understand it? so why can't God have His own personal one? After all, He invented all the others didn't He?
 
Upvote 0

KleinerApfel

When I awake I am still with You
Mar 4, 2004
12,411
1,327
Somewhere
✟42,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
sweetrevival said:
I am a little saddened by 2 of the posts referring to being bored or tired of this subject. May I kindly suggest that if that is the case, you not participate.

As to the topic of tongues. It is the most powerful, most uplifting, most satisfying, most intimate conversation you will ever have in your life, because it is your direct -read not using an interpreter, not having to decode - direct communication with the God we all profess to love and believe in. And what more could we want in our lives on this earth than direct communication with Him.

What makes it vital that all believers seek this gift is this. Satan has control of the atmosphere but cannot read our minds, when we speak out we inform him of our intentions. And we often speak in his language, which is that of sickness and anger, ie You make me sick, I hate you, etc.

When we communicate with God is our special tongue, satan has no way of knowing or eaves dropping on our conversation. That is something to be desired, isn't it?

As to the tongues themselves, I have observed that I had to learn my language over period of time, and i have identified at least 2 different ones. When I sing in prayer and talk in prayer it is soft and lyrical and comforting. When I speak in warlike situations it is fast and strong and powerful and I feel amazingly energetic.

If you listen to real tongues (and I can tell you that there is a lot of pretend ones out there), you will hear that it has all the depth and control of a conventional language, words can be identified. At times I will know in my English speaking self what I am saying, as I am speaking in my tongue language. Other times I can sing in my language and without a moments hesitation keep singing in english.

There is also a lot of times when God and I have conversations in English, which is more on the daily level. Just hanging out kind of talk.

And to bring tongues to a basic level - every trade has its own words and language, have you ever read a legal document and been able to understand it? so why can't God have His own personal one? After all, He invented all the others didn't He?

Thank you for thatpost, particularly the bit I highlighted.
I recently found myself using a second tongue and was a bit worried that something had gone wrong! It had never crossed my mind that an individual could use more than one prayer language.

Silly now I come to think of it :doh:: many people speak several earthly languages in the flesh, so surely God can do this!

God bless, Susana
 
Upvote 0

Ormly

Senior Veteran
Dec 11, 2004
6,230
94
✟7,151.00
Faith
Christian
JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER



“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).

Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”

I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.

In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”

I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.

The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming. He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.

For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.

The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?

In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).

But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.

Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the Holy Spirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).

It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).

Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.

In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).

On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues (Acts:10:46).

From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.

To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).

David Duplessis...[Mr Pentecost]
 
Upvote 0

KleinerApfel

When I awake I am still with You
Mar 4, 2004
12,411
1,327
Somewhere
✟42,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
PastorSherm said:
Am I the only one who thinks this might just be a troll job?

I'm begining to think you're right. This time of year seems to be having a negative effect on some people.

Know any edifying threads going on elsewhere PastorSherm?

God bless, Susana
 
Upvote 0