Tongues without the Baptism of the Spirit?

[ByTheSpirit]

Is it possible for someone to pray in tongues without being baptized in the Holy Spirit?

What I mean is say someone sets their heart on prayer and just starts making noise. Could be coherent or incoherent. Is that "praying without understanding" a form of tongues even if said person has never been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

 

[sandman]

Is it possible for someone to pray in tongues without being baptized in the Holy Spirit?

What I mean is say someone sets their heart on prayer and just starts making noise. Could be coherent or incoherent. Is that "praying without understanding" a form of tongues even if said person has never been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Anybody can babble incoherently.... but it won't be tongues. You have to be born again....have the spirit within to speak in tongues. I guess people could fake tongues, I have never dealt with anyone who has ....but what would the point be. There is no benefit to fake tongues, but there are many benefits to real tongues.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Anybody can babble incoherently.... but it won't be tongues. You have to be born again....have the spirit within to speak in tongues. I guess people could fake tongues, I have never dealt with anyone who has ....but what would the point be. There is no benefit to fake tongues, but there are many benefits to real tongues.

I'm just curious if someone were to just "babble" in prayer if that would be considered the same thing. I mean I guess ultimately the scriptures say Tongues comes only from receiving the Spirit so the answer is likely no.

 

[ARBITER01]

They are called gifts of The Spirit for a reason.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

They are called gifts of The Spirit for a reason.

Well yeah, but again Im more curious... Well let me rephrase it.

I've heard for years that crying is a form of prayer per se. That God sees and hears your heart and such. I guess I'm just building on that. If a person sets their heart on prayer then just starts to make noise if that is "the same.". I get the whole gifts of the Spirit point I do. Just curious is all.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well yeah, but again Im more curious... Well let me rephrase it.

I've heard for years that crying is a form of prayer per se. That God sees and hears your heart and such. I guess I'm just building on that. If a person sets their heart on prayer then just starts to make noise if that is "the same.". I get the whole gifts of the Spirit point I do. Just curious is all.

We can be curious about all sorts of things, but it is better to adhere to what The Holy Spirit teaches us in scripture.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

We can be curious about all sorts of things, but it is better to adhere to what The Holy Spirit teaches us in scripture.

No doubt

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well yeah, but again Im more curious... Well let me rephrase it.

I've heard for years that crying is a form of prayer per se. That God sees and hears your heart and such. I guess I'm just building on that. If a person sets their heart on prayer then just starts to make noise if that is "the same.". I get the whole gifts of the Spirit point I do. Just curious is all.

True tongues are fluent, articulate, expressive languages spoken to God. I can't imagine someone faking tongues while praying to the God who sees all. Does that person think they can fool God?

Fake tongues is just chin music spoken from the mouth and not from the heart. It usually happens when the person is under pressure from a group of an individual to receive the gift and then starts speaking nonsense to satisfy the group or person and then be able to make their escape from the pressure. A lot of that sort of thing happens in Charismatic churches where their are zealots who believe that everyone should be able to speak in tongues and are determined to "ambush" anyone who goes up the front for prayer so they try and push tongues into them.

Someone who genuinely desires the gift of tongues will ascertain that it is God's will for them, and will ask for the gift, and allow the Holy Spirit to give it to them. Then they will speak from their hearts in faith, and allow the language to flow out of them in an expressive and fluent manner.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

True tongues are fluent, articulate, expressive languages spoken to God. I can't imagine someone faking tongues while praying to the God who sees all. Does that person think they can fool God?

Fake tongues is just chin music spoken from the mouth and not from the heart. It usually happens when the person is under pressure from a group of an individual to receive the gift and then starts speaking nonsense to satisfy the group or person and then be able to make their escape from the pressure. A lot of that sort of thing happens in Charismatic churches where their are zealots who believe that everyone should be able to speak in tongues and are determined to "ambush" anyone who goes up the front for prayer so they try and push tongues into them.

Someone who genuinely desires the gift of tongues will ascertain that it is God's will for them, and will ask for the gift, and allow the Holy Spirit to give it to them. Then they will speak from their hearts in faith, and allow the language to flow out of them in an expressive and fluent manner.

I realize my question is borderline ridiculous. Just curious. You make some valid points. Thank you

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I realize my question is borderline ridiculous. Just curious. You make some valid points. Thank you

I wasn't trying to put you off desiring and seeking the best gifts of the Spirit that would support your ministry. Actually there is no operating manual for the use of the Word of Knowledge. I believe that when you get a Word, you will know all about it, because when God speaks His voice is distinctive and unique. My wise and mature pastor once told me that in order to be used in the prophetic, one had to be a man of prayer and of the Word. I asked the Lord how I can know His voice when He speaks to me. He said, "When I hear your voice a lot in prayer to me, you will hear My voice when I speak to you." So I determined that I would pray as much as I could.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

There is no biblical evidence of tongues outside of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I would imagine that the occult can reproduce it but that would not be the Gift of tongues. That being said, God can operate how He chooses and through whomever He chooses, so would I say that only those baptized in the Holy Spirit (meaning they pray for it, seek it, and have others pray over them to be filled) can speak in authentic tongues? No. I'm just saying there's no biblical precedence for it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

There is no biblical evidence of tongues outside of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I would imagine that the occult can reproduce it but that would not be the Gift of tongues. That being said, God can operate how He chooses and through whomever He chooses, so would I say that only those baptized in the Holy Spirit (meaning they pray for it, seek it, and have others pray over them to be filled) can speak in authentic tongues? No. I'm just saying there's no biblical precedence for it.

That's the conundrum of my question and I realize it's mostly impossible to prove or disprove. Scripture clearly states tongues is a gift of the Spirit, but I can't bring myself to say if a person is in deep anguish and can't articulate any coherent prayer that God doesn't hear their heart and respond accordingly. I know that's not tongues per se, but it's still praying without understanding. I dunno, thanks for your response!

 

[spiritfilledjm]

That's the conundrum of my question and I realize it's mostly impossible to prove or disprove. Scripture clearly states tongues is a gift of the Spirit, but I can't bring myself to say if a person is in deep anguish and can't articulate any coherent prayer that God doesn't hear their heart and respond accordingly. I know that's not tongues per se, but it's still praying without understanding. I dunno, thanks for your response!

Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (ESV)

I've never believed this to be tongues but rather travailing, when we just cannot develop the words to say but instead it is our spirit praying to God through the help of the Holy Spirit, rather it is our heart that is doing all the talking.

 

[ss51]

This has occurred, I have heard of a person who could impart without being 'born again" as we commonly understand it.
We know from scripture, "the Spirit gives utterance", so perhaps the person was already indwelt and only needed to act.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I've heard for years that crying is a form of prayer per se. That God sees and hears your heart and such. I guess I'm just building on that. If a person sets their heart on prayer then just starts to make noise if that is "the same.". I get the whole gifts of the Spirit point I do. Just curious is all.

Romans 8:26-27: “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

I don’t think the scripture in that sense is referring to speaking in tongues, rather, the holy spirit intercedes when a person is in such distress they cannot find the words to speak.

I don’t know much about the gift, I know some people who said when they became a born again believer, they opened their mouth to start praying and 'gibberish' came out.

However, as far as the bible describes it, it was actual languages, but not the mother tongue of the person/s speaking.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is not possible to pray in genuine tongues without being baptised with the Spirit. This is the error that many make. They think that getting someone to speak in tongues means that they are baptised with the Spirit. This is why much speaking in tongues is just nonsense gibberish.

Firstly, the person needs to be genuinely born again of the Spirit, and show the fruit of a true conversion to Christ. This means that he or she has received Christ, who bled and died on the Cross for the remission of their sins, have truly repented of sin and showing the fruit of repentance. The Holy Spirit will not fill an unclean vessel who is unconverted. This is why there is so much falsehood in the "Charismania" contingent. Not enough discernment is done to ensure that the person is genuinely born again and is not just showing the outward form of godliness.

Secondly, they must ask for the baptism with the Spirit, and then receive it. As a result, there should be a result, a transformation. A change needs to be observed. It is at that point, that the person has the ability to pray in tongues, and he or she is encouraged to start speaking in faith. Usually, the flow of language comes out and it is clearly observed that the tongues language is genuine. It is usually accompanied by love, peace and joy and the river of living water flows out from the person. This is further accompanied by a more intense love and devotion to Jesus and the desire to glorify Him in his or her life and ministry.

So, we see that the baptism with the Spirit is much more than just knowing how to pray or speak in tongues. If people are seeking tongues for their own gratification or to please their church leaders or peers, then they are likely to receive a counterfeit, and be ruined for the real thing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm just curious if someone were to just "babble" in prayer if that would be considered the same thing. I mean I guess ultimately the scriptures say Tongues comes only from receiving the Spirit so the answer is likely no.

When a person is baptised with the Spirit and starts to speak in tongues, it is not mindless babbling. It comes as an expressive, articulate language directed to God in prayer. It is like a river of living water coming out of the person. His prayer is directed toward Christ because He is the Person being spoken to. What causes confusion is where tongues are spoken out loud in meetings, and often it is not in the spirit of prayer. Paul said that if a crowd people people all babbled in tongues then outsiders coming in would think they are mad. This is usually the reaction of people watching Youtube video clips of people speaking in tongues. In actual fact, speaking in tongues is not a spectator sport. It is a sacred and holy form a prayer spoken to a holy God, and therefore it should be done with absolute reverence and respect. Therefore, tongues are not mindless noise. It is the deliberate action of speaking an unlearned language to enhance prayer. Speaking out loud in a meeting is the exercise of the ministry gift of tongues which requires an interpretation. Personal prayer tongues, public ministry tongues and interpretation are exercised in faith as the person feels prompted by the Holy Spirit. To be genuine in the exercise of the spiritual gifts one has to be a person mature in the Scriptures and having close regular fellowship with God in prayer.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well yeah, but again Im more curious... Well let me rephrase it.

I've heard for years that crying is a form of prayer per se. That God sees and hears your heart and such. I guess I'm just building on that. If a person sets their heart on prayer then just starts to make noise if that is "the same.". I get the whole gifts of the Spirit point I do. Just curious is all.

As I have said, tongues is not "noise". It is articulate and expressive unlearned language that flows out of the person as a river of living water as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. The problem with many is that they don't live holy lives, and therefore don't appreciate the sacred and holy nature of the work of the Holy Spirit and His gifts. They treat the gifts, including tongues as some kind of toy and think that they can achieve some kind of religious "high" by babbling away making a useless noise into the air, not fully realising that they are speaking to a holy God who requires reverence and respect. This results from incompetent teaching concerning the Holy Spirit from "teachers" who know little about Him and HIs work.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This has occurred, I have heard of a person who could impart without being 'born again" as we commonly understand it.
We know from scripture, "the Spirit gives utterance", so perhaps the person was already indwelt and only needed to act.

Someone who is not born again can impart some kind of spirit but not the Holy Spirit.