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tongues: speaking in known languages or unknown?

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HoneyDew

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I remember as a young girl, going with my friends past those churches where the people were getting in the spirit. We were almost always afraid that something would happen to us because our parents told us it was demon-worship. Granted, our parents told us everybody else worshipped the devil anyway, so that was nothing new.

Now, we used to watch fascinated as these people would beat that tambourine and drum and start jerking, and flailing and screaming for hours without needing refueling. They would froth at the mouth. I would see them in the evening walking home with the white dried stuff in the corners of their mouths.

My schoolmate, Dionne, was a member of a Pentecostal church and she would tell me the inner runnings (as much as she could anyway to a skeptical Adventist) as we ate lunch or walked home. She believed in it with all her heart.
 
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TrustAndObey

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That story gave me the goosebumps.

I can tell you that when I was grabbed at my friend's church, the face I was looking up to was not a holy one, it was demonic.
 
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Sophia7

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SassySDA said:
But I do know one thing...either way, it doesn't entail people bouncing around rooms, bumping into walls, or flailing about on the floor with dresses up over their heads (women). **I just do NOT believe the Holy Spirit works that way.

I agree with you, Sassy.

By the way, there are actually a couple of examples in the Bible that talk about women having skirts over their heads, but they are not in relation to speaking in tongues :
Seriously, I am wondering why people tend to think of the gift of tongues in terms of either one extreme or the other--either that speaking in tongues involves some type of fanatical or possibly even demonic activity or that it is limited strictly to speaking in other human languages so that others can understand us, without any emotional aspect. Are there not other possibilities? Speaking in some sort of spiritual language would not necessarily mean also writhing around on the floor like lunatics.
 
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Sophia7

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Here are the apparent differences that I see between the general Adventist understanding of what happened in Acts 2 and what Paul said about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:

1. In Acts 2, the apostles were speaking to men, not to God. 1 Cor. 14:2 says, "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God."

2. The whole purpose of the manifestation in Acts 2 was to edify the listeners, whereas Paul said in 1 Cor. 14:4, "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." Tongues are not for the purpose of instruction, revelation, or prophecy to the church (1 Cor. 14:6; 18-19).

3. In Acts 2, no one had to pray to be able to interpret; it happened automatically (cf. 1 Cor. 14:13).

I am quoting the relevant section of 1 Corinthians 14 here for reference:
Now, this is only my opinion, but I think it is possible that the apostles' gift of tongues in the first part of Acts 2 (verses 1-13) is the same thing that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14–-a type of prayer or praise between them and God as a result of the Spirit coming upon them, not words of instruction to their listeners although their words were interpreted. The reason that they didn't need to pray that their words would be interpreted was probably that the Holy Spirit interpreted them automatically so that their listeners would understand what they were saying. I don't even think that they were actually speaking in all of the languages of the people who were listening; the text says that the audience heard them in their own languages. After all, how could 12 men speak at least 15 languages-–probably more because some of the geographical regions mentioned could have encompassed more than one language or dialect-–at the same time without great confusion? It would make more sense for the Holy Spirit to interpret what they said into the languages of the audience.

Also, the fact that some listeners thought that they were drunk seems to imply that they were speaking in some manner other than the calm, rational tone of Peter's sermon. My opinion, based on how Paul describes the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians, is that they were filled with exuberance and were praising God in a different way than they would normally speak and in words that people would not normally be able to understand (whether they were known human languages or spiritual languages is unclear and probably irrelevant).

However, their words were not yet meant to give instruction or revelation to the crowd. In fact, when the apostles began speaking in tongues, it was before they even had an audience (Acts 2:4-6). The crowd assembled because they heard the noise (it must have been pretty loud) and came to see what was happening, and then they heard everything in their own languages. It wasn't until Peter stood up to speak that the instructional portion of the program began.

Furthermore, when Peter spoke, I don't believe that he spoke in all of the languages of the people present either. I believe that the Holy Spirit interpreted his words so that everyone could understand him. His sermon was not part of the manifestation of tongues but an explanation of what had just happened because the people did not understand what this experience meant.

Therefore, perhaps the apparent differences are not differences at all:

1. In Acts 2, the apostles were actually speaking to God, not to men, since they didn't have an audience at first.

2. The purpose of the manifestation of tongues in Acts 2 was not to edify the listeners. It was to pray to or to praise God for the gift of the Holy Spirit. The edification of others began when Peter began to speak in verse 14. Tongues are not for the purpose of instruction, revelation, or prophecy to the church (1 Cor. 14:6; 18-19).

3. In Acts 2, no one had to pray to be able to interpret; it happened automatically (through the Holy Spirit). The apostles, especially Peter when he preached his sermon, probably were not speaking in all of the languages of the listeners, but they were heard in those languages.

Although the official Adventist position (if there is one) on the gift of tongues seems to be that the only legitimate manifestation would be the ability to speak in other languages in order to be understood by others and not "ecstatic utterances during which the individual loses self-control," I question whether an outpouring of exuberant praise to God in either a human language or a spiritual language (a language of angels, as Paul calls it in 1 Cor. 13:1) should automatically carry the connotation of a loss of control. Could people not praise God ecstatically without acting insane? (Go to http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/usefulgifts.htm for Angel Manuel Rodriguez's view on tongues.)

The problem that I have with some of the Adventist explanations of this is that Adventists (like Rodriguez) tend to interpret 1 Corinthians 14 based on what they think Acts 2 and some of the other passages in Acts are talking about to make it fit with our idea that the gift of tongues has to be speaking in other languages so that everyone can understand. And I see some inconsistencies in this because the texts, in my opinion, do not seem to reconcile themselves to those explanations, especially 1 Corinthians 14.

Here are the other texts in Acts that mention speaking in tongues:
Here is a link to a 1965 publication by Harry W. Lowe, entitled Speaking in Tongues: A Brief History of the Phenomenon Known as Glossolalia, or Speaking in Tongues (nice redundant title), from the Biblical Research Institute web site: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/speaking%20in%20tongues.pdf

Lowe speculates that when the Gentiles in Acts 10 spoke in tongues, they were likely speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew although there is no textual evidence to indicate what language they were speaking. This could be true, though, since it would eliminate the need for an interpreter, or I suppose the Holy Spirit could have interpreted here as well, but it doesn't say that. Lowe also says that the Holy Spirit gave Cornelius and his friends and family this gift as a sign to prove to the Jews that even Gentiles could be granted "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18).

While I agree that the Jews did interpret this as a sign of that very thing, I don't see that this contradicts the idea that the Gentiles could have been praising God exuberantly through the manifestation of tongues (regardless of whether it was a known or unknown language). In fact, the text itself says that they were speaking in tongues and praising God (10:46). The whole idea I get from all of these passages is that speaking in tongues, although not a gift given to everyone, involves praising God in a different language than one would normally speak, one that would most likely not be understood by observers–-hence the need for interpretation.

On the text in Acts 19 regarding the Ephesian believers who spoke in tongues, Lowe's comment is that the Greek word glossa always refers to known tongues. I am not a Greek scholar, so I don't know if that is true or not, but I did notice that in 1 Cor. 13:1, where Paul refers to the tongues of men and angels, the word glossa is used for both. Apparently, the language of angels is also a known language although not humanly known.

Thus, I agree that the gift of tongues is a gift of speaking different languages than one would normally speak or even know, but the question is can these languages be spiritual as well as human (which would seem so from 1 Cor. 13:1 and also from 1 Cor. 14)? Also, what is the purpose of them? It seems to me that the traditional Adventist view would contradict what Paul says in 1 Cor. 14 about their purpose not being to edify or instruct the church. If the gift of tongues meant simply speaking in other languages so that others could understand, how does that relate to the idea of tongues as speaking to God rather than to men? I don't believe that the apostles started out speaking in tongues before an audience. I don't believe that Cornelius and his family were instructing Peter and his companions about anything; they were simply praising God. I don't believe that the Ephesians spoke in tongues to teach anyone anything but to show that they, too, had received the Holy Spirit. The gift's manifestation of the ability to speak in other languages is so that it is evident that it is supernatural, not primarily so that other people (or even we ourselves) can understand it.

Another thing that bothers me is that many interpretations of 1 Corinthians 14 associate the gift of tongues spoken of there as a bad thing. Here is how Thayer's lexicon puts it (in its discussion of the word glossa and related terms):
Rodriguez mentions this idea (in somewhat less descriptive language) in his article as well, but I do not get this impression at all from 1 Corinthians 14. Paul's advice on tongues indicates that it is a good thing but must be done in an organized fashion in the church and that the other gifts are more to be desired because they build up the church. I don't get the idea at all that Paul thought that people were not able to control themselves while speaking in tongues because of the facts that they could choose to remain silent if others were doing it and that they could pray that their words would be interpreted. What I think Paul is saying is that speaking in tongues is good but that other gifts are more practical for the church, because tongues are normally only between a person and God. I think Paul would even prefer that people not speak in tongues at all in church, not because it's a bad thing but because the other gifts are more useful (1 Cor. 14:18-19), but he gave them guidelines so they would not misuse the gift of tongues.

My opinion is that our fear of the counterfeit gift of tongues has led us as Adventists to reinterpret what the biblical gift of tongues actually was. I once attended a service at a charismatic church, where people were speaking in tongues. It made me very uncomfortable because I knew that they were not following the biblical guidelines for orderly worship. It also would have fit Thayer's description above; in fact, that's what I thought of when I read it. I think people who believe that Christians who do not speak in tongues have not really received the Holy Spirit are deceived. On the other hand, we seem to have left little room in the Adventist Church for a true manifestation of the gift of tongues or, for that matter, for the kind of indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the early Christians experienced. How many people would ever accuse us of being drunk when we are praising God?
 
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SassySDA

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None that I know of, praise God. Sophia, your post is eloquent and I found it very enlightening, and I thank you for taking the time to bring it to us here in the forum.

I understand everything you are saying, and I even believe that there are "mysterious utterances" that can occur during the praising of our God.

The problem is that I have seen MANY of these such "utterances", and these people are not acting as if they are drunk...they are acting as if they are possessed of demons. I can't say it any more plain than that. I could easily see people jumping up and down, clapping, smiling beatifically, and speaking in a language I cannot understand. But that isn't what I have witnessed - ever. I wish I could say differently.

In the churches I witnessed this in, this "speaking in tongues" was not only encouraged, it was EXPECTED, and no bones were made about it. If you DIDN'T do it you didn't have the spirit in you and that meant you weren't saved, end of story. Of course, I cannot say that about all of the churches who preach belief in the speaking in tongues, but I have never been involved with one, even as a visitor once in awhile, that didn't. It's the kind of scene that scares children, and I'm not kidding. What TrustAndObey described, where the man came at her and she ran screaming and crying? I had no trouble envisioning that occurrence in my mind, for I had seen it with my own eyes on more than one occassion. I myself have left a service over it when I was young. It's frightening. Then, when I got to be a teenager, and this same friend begged me to attend with her again, it took everything in me not to burst out laughing. It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. I bit the inside of my cheek however and maintained decorum. God didn't create fools, why would He want us to act like one?

What I have personally witnessed in these types of churches, is not described in scripture. What IS described in scripture, it would appear, was expounded upon and greatly exaggerated by someone and it caught on.
 
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tall73

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moicherie said:
I dont understand this desire to speak to God in some unknown human tongue when we cant even get along with other humans in our own tongue?

We don't necessarily have a desire to do it. We are simply trying to make sense of the text.

If anything it says to desire the greater gifts.


I think your concern about getting along with others is covered in chapter 13.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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moicherie said:
I dont understand this desire to speak to God in some unknown human tongue when we cant even get along with other humans in our own tongue?
Then I'll explain, or rather God will . . . ever since man broke off from God he has had strife with each other. So, get back to God and you have nothing but love for man.

After Jews and Gentiles all received God's Spirit & spoke in tongues they had all things in common with God and each other.

Is there anything you want more right now than to be part of God's answer instead of man's problems ?

If not, your answr is to follow what's said in Acts 2v4, 33-39.
 
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Sophia7

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I agree. As I said, I have witnessed this same type of thing myself--an unbiblical expression of tongues. I didn't have anyone grab me or anything, but I definitely believed that it was not from the Holy Spirit because they didn't follow the biblical principles at all. And expecting everyone to do it as a sign that they are really saved is certainly not biblical. I believe that this is a counterfeit "gift" created by Satan to distort the true gift of tongues.

What I am wondering is if anyone has ever observed someone speaking in tongues that was actually in accordance with the Bible. I am especially wondering if anyone knows of any Adventists who have received the gift of tongues--whether it was speaking in other languages that the person didn't already know or whatever. And I am wondering if it were to actually happen in a different way than we expected (but not a fanatical or demonic way), would we accept it even if it was done in accordance with the biblical guidelines?

It's all well and good to address this subject in the theological and hypothetical realms and to mention it in our fundamental beliefs as one of the gifts of the Spirit, but is this gift in reality still a part of our church today, and, if not, should it be?

I have also read some things by Adventists who said that the gift of tongues was simply the ability to learn new languages, which seems not to fit with the biblical evidence, but it's a safer view for us because if that were true, then we wouldn't have any problem believing it if it happened. There would be nothing out of the ordinary about that.
 
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tall73

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Actually, that is chapter 13 as I referenced. Love is a fruit of the Spirit which all in the Spirit should have. The greater gifts that we are told to desire are prophecy, etc. that build up the church.

Gifts will are not eternal, but love is. Hence it says gifts will pass away. But for now we should seek to excel in those gifts useful for building up the church.

But notice also that Paul does not say that tongues are bad. He speaks in them more than any of them. So it is not a matter of desiring them, but why would we turn them away if they are from God?
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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"The gifts" refer specifically to the meetings use of what ALL christians have privately - faith, knowledge, tongues etc... it is *precisely* because ALL have these attributes (because u can't have Jesus WITHOUT them), that there needs to be limitation and order when all meet - that is what "the gifts" passage (1 Cor. 12 & 14) is about

So, privately I have faith & I pray in tongues etc, so do all my brothers & sisters, BUT, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues", do u see the point ?

The bible doesn't talk about "parts of Christianity", it talks about "one faith", "the faith once delivered to the saints" and all received the fulness - Acts 2v4, 33, 39; 10v44-48 etc.

Outside of that way you have all sorts of wierd and wonderful ideas that cause people to doubt the need for what God gives all his people, under the New Covenant.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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moicherie said:
'Parts of Christianity' whether we like it or not Christendom is not on a one faith road at the moment there are many churches out there.
And whether we like it or not there is only one faith in God's kingdom and all the alternatives are "harlots".
 
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Jimlarmore

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To me this still does not mean that the language being spoken was not a known language somewhere. It could be that no one in that area could understand the tongue speaker. The difference the way I see it between charismatic utterances and true tongues is that true tongue always should involve a known language to someone somewhere. If a person speaking in tongues is not even understood by himself as he speaks it then even the one speaking is not edified or benefited. God knows all and is not the author of confusion. What you seem to suggest is that this manifestation is for the benefit of the one who needs it the least, God Himself.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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On 3ABN brother Hal Stenson has been conducting a series of programs devoted to "spiritual gifts". In this series he spent more than one program on the gift of tongues. From his perspective as a past charasmatic pastor, what is being practiced today in churches that is called tongues is not this spiritual gift but a couterfeit of that spiritual gift. Now we don't necessarily have to take Pastor Hal's word for anything as the bottom line but as I sat and watched these programs I came to a better understanding of the gifts. Clossolalia (ms) does not glorify the Lord or uplift the speaker as it is an unintelligible utterance that is not even known by God.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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If you think some of the utterances is just a made up thing in these churches you are very wrong, not all are. I have a friend who is a member of a charismatic church. He was very skeptical for a long time, then at one meeting he was slain in the spirit and couldn't move his muscles for quite some time. During this time he could see fine and he said the ceiling had all kinds of colors coming from it. He also talked in tongues that he had no idea what he was saying at all. He said he felt like a million dollars but just couldn't move. This testimony convinced me that this stuff is not all a fake. This guy would never lie about anything to my knowledge.

Now the question to me is this. What kind of spirit would do this? We know that there are only two super-natural forces at work in our world so it either has to be of God or one of His angels or the enemy satan or one of his angels.

Question #2. Who was edified by this manifestation? Who was glorified?

Something to think about.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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What about Ellen White and others at early Adventist meetings, they had these types of slain in the spirit experiences. Personally I think they are generally induced by human belief rather then some kind of spiritual manifestation. A mass hysteria type of thing. (more accurately mass delusions) Some good historical examples can be found at:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/delusions.html

Also you will find more information in Hank Hanagraaf's book The Counterfiet Revival which is an examination of the Toronto Blessing manifestations. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849942942/christianministr
 
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Sophia7

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Yes, always in a known language, even if it's known only to God, but what is spoken in public has to be interpreted. What you say directly contradicts the text that I posted, which clearly says, "No one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit" (1 Cor. 14:2). Also, verse 4 says that a person who speaks in tongues does not edify either other people or God, as you say I am proposing; he edifies himself. That's why Paul says that prophecy is the more desirable gift, because it edifies the church.

The type of glossolalia that Paul is talking about here is speaking in a private prayer language, not speaking without restraint in a public worship service. There's a big difference. The Bible says that any public speaking in tongues must be interpreted and done by only two or three people. Otherwise, the speaker must keep it between himself and God: "If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1 Cor. 14:28).
 
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