Tongues..a sign.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

mukk_in said:
Don't forget other manifestations of the Holy Spirit like Divine healing, miracles, and most importantly the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Not everyone Spirit filled saint is enabled with the gift of tongues. Even the Apostle Paul didn't have this gift (1 Cor 14:18-19). A new life is the best manifestation of the indwelling Holy Spirit .

The reference does not say that Paul could not speak in tongues. There is undisputable evidence in the same chapter that he did speak in tongues extensively, but he chose not to speak it in public church meetings for the reason which he outlines. There is a major difference between the private use of tongues between the believer and God, and the public use of tongues which requires an interpretation. When tongues is described as a spiritual gift, it is the public tongues that is described, not the private ability that comes along with the filling of the Holy Spirit. Just as those who have the ability decide not to use it in private because they have not yet got their heads around it, there are many who pray in tongues in private who decide not to use it in public meetings because they are complying with Paul's teaching about tongues.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

mukk_in said:
Galatians 5:22-23 is not man made my friend. Paul didn't speak in tongues either. 1 Corinthians 14:18-19 is not man made either. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit. But beware of counterfeits from the devil (I've seen plenty of speaking in tongues but with no spiritual character), which is what Paul warned us about.

You have cherry-picked two verse out of the whole chapter to try and tell us that Paul never spoke in tongues. How do you explain Paul saying that he spoke in tongues more than them all? I know that there are many in Pentecostal churches who speak in public without interpretation. Paul says of those people that they give thanks well, so their speaking cannot be of the devil if Paul describes their speaking as giving praise to God in a "well" manner. As far as spiritual character, on what do you base your judgment? Can you see into people's hearts as God sees? Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. Maybe what we decide is spiritual character may be different to the way that God sees it. In my experience those who seem to be very "saintly" turn out to be ones who are struggling with serious sins and problems in their lives and who are over compensating for it in front of others.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

Alithis said:
Just a note.in this forum promotion of the unbelief of cessationism is not allowed.

Don't worry about it. These people are just providing good ammunition for great healthy debate.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
"They spoke the tongue of English. how is this known to be tongues of the holy spirit?.. Well that's because the people being baptised in the holy spirit did not speak English."

What was their native tongue?
Where did this happen?

Really interesting.

I've yet to witness tongs then interpretation.

I've witness people pray in tongs but no interpretation.

I have heard of Africans in Kenya who came out of the bush after not having any contact with Europeans, getting saved in a Pentecostal church, getting baptised in the Spirit and then speaking in clear Oxford English. Africans speaking English always have a particular accent. These ones spoke absolutely clear English without any accent. This is remarkable since they had never met any Europeans nor heard English spoken before then.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

AlexDTX said:
I am having trouble understanding your point. It seems you are saying that tongues are a sign for unbelievers and believers alike to indicate the inward experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit outwardly, but tongues do nothing to build godly character or to save people. Is that right? If so, I agree. Tongues do edify the person in the sense that the Holy Spirit is praying for that person and others as well.

As for interpretation, this is done when a prophecy is given to the congregation. I used to hear this many times in the Assemblies of God where I first experienced both my new birth and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The problem is, no one knows if the interpretation is correct. We just took it by faith that it was. Many times they were just general statements of well being and blessing, which had no significant element that stood out as uniquely from God.

I have prophecised, but that was because I felt the prompting of the Lord to speak a word. The prophecy was in English, not tongues, and all I had was a single word, but as I spoke the rest would come out.

Andrew Wommack believes that when we pray in tongues as a private prayer language, we should still ask God for the interpretation so we can agree with His prayer. I have tried this but have had no sense of an interpretation brought forth.

One view of this is that the utterance in tongues could be an intercession for the Holy Spirit to bring forth prophecy. This is why an interpretation might not match the utterance every time. It has been observed that many times an utterance in tongues has had the effect of releasing the prophetic word in a meeting, and several have brought forth good prophecies as a result. The person has brought forth the utterance in faith, and those who have prophesied have brought their words in faith also for the upbuilding of the congregation.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

Biblicist said:
Regarding Wommack's view that we should seek an interpretation of what the Spirit is saying to the Father in tongues, this also has no basis within the Word and I seriously doubt if we would be able to handle knowing what the Holy Spirit is saying as he would be revealing the deepest and often the darkest secrets of those who we are praying for - I know that I would never want to know such very personal things about another; for that matter, I probably would not want to know what the Spirit is saying to the Father about me!

I agree. When we pray to God in tongues in our private prayer time, it is a prayer directed to God where we are fully trusting the Holy Spirit to make intercession through us. We don't need the interpretation. All we need is that God has heard our prayer. Often, we will experience the outcome of our prayers as God works in and through us when we minister to others, or that our needs are met in ways that only God could do it.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

Didaskalos said:
There are two kinds of tongues. One where the utterance is from the Holy Spirit, one where the utterance is from our own reborn spirit.

That is held up by Paul saying that he prays with his spirit and his understanding, which is his praying in tongues and then his native language.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 31, 2017

Alithis said:
My overall point is.. Tongues are an outward evidence that one has received the Holy spirit and if one has not received that seal they are not Christs

I would be a bit careful with this statement. It implies that you are saying that those who do not speak in tongues are not genuine born again believers.

I'm_Sorry · Jul 31, 2017

Oscarr said:
I have heard of Africans in Kenya who came out of the bush after not having any contact with Europeans, getting saved in a Pentecostal church, getting baptised in the Spirit and then speaking in clear Oxford English. Africans speaking English always have a particular accent. These ones spoke absolutely clear English without any accent. This is remarkable since they had never met any Europeans nor heard English spoken before then.

That's awesome!

Be an amazing experience to witness.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

Oscarr said:
I would be a bit careful with this statement. It implies that you are saying that those who do not speak in tongues are not genuine born again believers.

It would appear so . but it's not quite the case .but it is the case that every one who has the holy spirit can speak in tongues and if not it can be simply
1demonic interference...after deliverence they speak in tongues
2 preset religious mind...they need to renew the mind
3 if he things like unbelief and unforgivness.

I would not have stated this a few years back.but now we have observed
That every one who truley comes to repentance and gets freed from the void of sin in Any form.. And is baptised in The holy Spirit..then speaks in tongues..
All of them . we were at first amazed by this but now we expect it to be so.
Those that believe ..these signs shall follow them ..

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
It would appear so . but it's not quite the case .but it is the case that every one who has the holy spirit can speak in tongues and if not it can be simply
1demonic interference...after deliverence they speak in tongues
2 preset religious mind...they need to renew the mind
3 if he things like unbelief and unforgivness.

I would not have stated this a few years back.but now we have observed
That every one who truley comes to repentance and gets freed from the void of sin in Any form.. And is baptised in The holy Spirit..then speaks in tongues..
All of them . we were at first amazed by this but now we expect it to be so.
Those that believe ..these signs shall follow them ..

I'm born again and I don't speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

Didaskalos said:
Nope, just scripture:

I am praying from my spirit:
1 Corinthians 14:14 KJV
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Example of praying from the utterance of the Holy Spirit:
1 Corinthians 12:
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Yes.this is speaking soley in the context of an assembling of believers.
It is not a comprehensive rule book.
He is writing a letter of Reply to questions asked. We don't have the letter he is replying to.
Its an error to make doctrinal laws out of this.
The truth is it is the Same holy Spirit in ALL those who have received him. And the holy Spirit is whom we live by and in obedience to.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
I'm born again and I don't speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.

When were you baptised in the Holy Spirit?

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
When were you baptised in the Holy Spirit?

2005

Biblicist · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
I agree.
But we can ask .
For All the gifts.and it is become quite a regular thing after asking him to find often enough I get a clear picture of what it is I'm praying for..though more often it's Who I'm.praying for..not what.

As much as I can praise God that I am able to pray to Him in the Holy Spirit (tongues), where I know that the Holy Spirit prays through me to the Father in accordance with those things that I want him to intercede to the Father on, I know that he will absolutely never provide me or another person with an interpretation of what he has said.

I could not imagine being made privy to what would undoubtedly be very sensitive information, the 'inner most secrets of the heart'; how could I or another cope with knowing the deepest thoughts of another person. I would certainly never want to know such things nor would I ever want to be responsible for handling such personal and sensitive information; in fact, I seriously doubt that mortal man would be capable of doing so.

What the Holy Spirit knows about the deepest thoughts of another, these are matters that can only be communicated and addressed by both the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Biblicist · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
I would not have stated this a few years back.but now we have observed
That every one who truley comes to repentance and gets freed from the void of sin in Any form.. And is baptised in The holy Spirit..then speaks in tongues..

This in my opinion is a bit of a troublesome statement as I have yet to meet anyone who has been "freed from the void of sin", though the Born Again Believer is no longer being imprisoned to our sin . . . but even the Elect sin, either by a wilful decision or by omission.

As we may need to qualify some previous points, even though I may have misread a few things that you said, it should be pointed out that every person who has confessed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour is Born Again, even if they have not been correctly informed that they can all immediately begin to pray in the Spirit (tongues).

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
If never listened to Andrew womack.

What I do know is we are to desire earnestly all the abilities(gifts)
And that whatever we ask the father for in Jesus name..he gives.
Especially when we ask for the right motive and not out own ego.
But that topic arose because someone asked a sideline question.

My overall point is.. Tongues are an outward evidence that one has received the Holy spirit and if one has not received that seal they are not Christ`s

OK. I agree that tongues are an outward evidence, but not that they received the Holy Spirit, but that they received the release of the Holy Spirit called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You can be born again without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The new birth is the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus breathed on his disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit (John 20:22) at least 10 days before Pentecost. The seal of the Holy Spirit does not refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Ephesians trusted after hearing the word of truth which they believed and were sealed with the holy spirit of promise. Says nothing about speaking in tongues or the baptism of the Spirit. Merely the new birth.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Oscarr said:
One view of this is that the utterance in tongues could be an intercession for the Holy Spirit to bring forth prophecy. This is why an interpretation might not match the utterance every time. It has been observed that many times an utterance in tongues has had the effect of releasing the prophetic word in a meeting, and several have brought forth good prophecies as a result. The person has brought forth the utterance in faith, and those who have prophesied have brought their words in faith also for the upbuilding of the congregation.

Excellent point. I have not heard of this view but I think you are on to something.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
2005

How do you know

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
OK. I agree that tongues are an outward evidence, but not that they received the Holy Spirit, but that they received the release of the Holy Spirit called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You can be born again without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The new birth is the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus breathed on his disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit (John 20:22) at least 10 days before Pentecost. The seal of the Holy Spirit does not refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Ephesians trusted after hearing the word of truth which they believed and were sealed with the holy spirit of promise. Says nothing about speaking in tongues or the baptism of the Spirit. Merely the new birth.

Just because every event is not listed cannot be used to say that did or didn't.but since it is God's will for all disciples to be equipped it is not a big stretch to assume they got baptised in the holy Spirit.
Why would a born again believer refuse ?

Tongues..a sign.

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