Toddlers in worship

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Well I can say is Jesus would not make children go sit in the nursery and wouldn't make them and their families feel unwelcome--unlike people like you. Lighten up.

Jesus wouldn't make them sit in the nursery, unless they were bothering the concentration of others

And for your information, my toddler is well behaved in church--so don't project your irritation with other children onto MY CHILD--do we understand each other? I hope so, because I don't want to have to explain this to you again.

Listen, lady... you obviously don't understand the nature of this conversation as we are discussing children who are making distractions in the church. If you think that being distracting in the church is behaving... I feel even sorrier for you now, than I did ten minutes ago.

As for your consideration how about you show some yourself. You ask parents to show you some how about you show people with children some consideration? Or is it all about you and your church experience?

My actions are not distracting.

Really? Jesus said to make the children go away and go to then nursery where in the bible? OH YEAH. He didn't say that at all.

I never said that being a distraction in the church is behaving. Apparently you just didn't read or you just chose not to and just hammered out a "response". I asked you what you thought of the behavior of this one woman in my church who was apparently appalled that I brought *GASP* a child to ash wednesday service. She was more appalled I supposed when my child cooed a few times. I was saying how lucky I was that this was not the majority in my church. Perhaps you should read what I say before responding.

How you can pick on a child is just really disgusting. But of course people on pick on people who don't have a way of really defending themselves. How mature and adult of you. I'm guessing you don't have children....

Don't feel sorry for me dear. I feel sorry for you. I'm not the one picking on children. I can't imagine what other problems you have with other people who may or may not make a noise or some sort of disturbance in church. Does your issue with certain people just extend to what disturbance they cause by noise or does it go beyond that to looks and things like that too? Do you see Jesus in anyone other than those who "behave"?

I doubt you are going to even read and try to understand where anyone else is coming from because its all about YOUR experience. Its not all about you.

 

[pmcleanj]

[So, you argument is that being a child is a traumatic disease? That's wonderful thinking. Hey Sidhe, your kid is a disease.

No, neither do I argue that singing off-key, wearing perfume, being elderly or barren, or living with bereavement or abuse, or being a hearty young man or a fashionable young woman are traumatic diseases. So take heart: you ProdigalSeeker are no more a traumatic disease than Mrs Sidhe's children are.

[So the consensus here is the parent's right to have a screaming child in church trumps other's to concentrate on the service. I'm glad I don't attend the same services you do.

No, the consensus here is that we need to work together to include the Whole Company of all Faithful people in our worship. The question is, how do we do that. It starts with patience and understanding, which is why I asked, What do you think are appropriate expectations for toddlers, how do you think the congregation should be helping them meet those expectations, and are your expectations and ideas realistic in the light of a toddler's abilities and the congregation's responsibilities? If you would be so kind as to put some thought into that question, then maybe we as a group can move forward with ideas on how to be the WHOLE church together.

 

[higgs2]

It is so easy to demonize children: they are powerless to stand up for themselves, and have such limited rights to defense.

So, you argument is that being a child is a traumatic disease? That's wonderful thinking. Hey Sidhe, your kid is a disease.

So the consensus here is the parent's right to have a screaming child in church trumps other's to concentrate on the service. I'm glad I don't attend the same services you do.

I think what people are saying is that we need to fulfill our baptismal vows to seek and serve Christ in others, which might mean that we have to exercise patience when a child or anyone else makes some noise in church.

 

[Healed_IHS]

never said that being a distraction in the church is behaving. Apparently you just didn't listen. I asked you what you thought of the behavior of this one woman in my church who was apparently appalled that I brought *GASP* a child to ash wednesday service
Who said I was even talking about YOU. There YOU go again. I was talking about children who DISTRACT in church. If YOU wish to project something else, that's your deal. Go sell crazy somewhere else.

Have a nice day.

 

[Healed_IHS]

Children should not be running on the altar during the service. When parents start to appreciate that we can start to move forward.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Let ProdigalSeeker know he's now on my ignore list. I'm not going to put up and listen with his bull hockey and attacks.

 

[Healed_IHS]

Happy Birthday Mrs. Sidhe

 

[ChaliceThunder]

May I share a cool experience?

I just got back from the consecration of the new Bishop of Chicago (my former rector and boss).

They held the event in a HUGE arena. What I found wonderful was this: they had specially prepared a place front and center for young children, right in front of the altar. They put down comfy blankets and a labyrinth rug, plenty of crayons and I think I saw some Godly Play materials. There were a couple of welcoming adults to help supervise. The kids who were there spent part of the time being transfixed by all the pointy hats and smoke; and part of the time coloring or stepping on the mat, or almost anything else. It was wonderful to behold!

 

[pmcleanj]

Children should not be running on the altar during the service. When parents start to appreciate that we can start to move forward.

I have never in my life seen children running on the Table, during a service or otherwise. I frankly agree with the Prayer Book there should be nothing on the Table except bread and wine and a Fair Linen cloth, for all I accept others' wanting candles and frontals and such. So I feel confident speaking on behalf of higgs2 and Mrs Sidhe and SirTimothy that we all agree children should not be running on the altar during the service.

Therefore let us move forward, especially since the topic ACTUALLY, per the OP, is about the fact that "after Baptism [toddlers] are part of the Body of Christ--they are children of God, and since it's His House, and they are his children... they need to feel welcomed, loved and accepted" -- NOT about "children who are making distractions in the church". To facilitate moving on, then, what you think are appropriate expectations for toddlers, how the congregation should be helping them meet those expectations, and whether those expectations and ideas are realistic in the light of a toddler's abilities and the congregation's responsibilities?

 

[ChaliceThunder]

There is a nursery for that... there are many rooms in God's house. Other people may feel it distracts from the "mood" that is being set during the service, and is it really fair to them?

Children should grow up in the liturgy from day 1. They learn so much from exploring the sights, smells, tastes, sounds and textures! Not to mention, they have PLENTY to teach adults!

Why excommunicate them until they can meet your standards of "acceptable behavior?"

 

[pmcleanj]

...they had specially prepared a place front and center for young children, right in front of the altar. They put down comfy blankets and a labyrinth rug, plenty of crayons and I think I saw some Godly Play materials.

One of the Anglican Church's most valuable resources in the domain of child Christian Conformation is Gretchen Pritchard Wolfe, who worked with the Diocese of Toronto and is the author of Offering the Gospel to Children. This idea of a large soft carpet at the front of the church with welcoming adults skilled in child-nurture to help them participate appropriately in the worship, is one of her ideas that I've always yearned to see in action. Theoretically, from what I know of children's needs and learning styles, it should be highly effective, but it pushes the limits of what more conservative congregations are willing to try. I don't believe that she put the carpet inside the Chancel, however; I had the impression rather that they removed a couple pews at the front of the church and put it on the floor of the Nave. Oddly, it's the idea of removing pews that most congregations balk at, even if the pews are standing empty as front pews (and in most cases, 50% of the non-front pews) usually are.

 

[Inside Edge]

So I feel confident speaking on behalf of higgs2 and Mrs Sidhe and SirTimothy that we all agree children should not be running on the altar during the service.

You can include me in the list, too. My kids, for all of their exploring the sanctuary, have never climbed or ran on the alter, removed anything from it (like the cloth), whathaveyou.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Well I can say is Jesus would not make children go sit in the nursery and wouldn't make them and their families feel unwelcome--unlike people like you. Lighten up.

And for your information, my toddler is well behaved in church--so don't project your irritation with other children onto MY CHILD--do we understand each other? I hope so, because I don't want to have to explain this to you again.

I took my child to Ash Wednesday service and there was a woman there who was irritated that I apparently brought my child. Period. I got "the look" when I walked in the church. What do you have to say about that? Am I supposed to be happy with that kind of attitude? Am I just supposed to leave my daughter in the nursery because an old woman wants to get ticked off? I don't think so.

Lucky for me people like her are in the minority in my church. Any cooing my daughter did or has done during church hasn't caused any problems and people seem to think its cute. Of course people in my church are actually WELCOMING of families and children. It's sad not more parishes do not have people who are like this--reverent--yet easy going and about to have a cow because a child got up or cooed.

As for your consideration how about you show some yourself. You ask parents to show you some how about you show people with children some consideration? Or is it all about you and your church experience?

I think part of the problem (perhaps not all of it) is the fact that some people come to church to practice their personal piety. They want to kneel and pray and encounter God in that way. Many of them do not like to pass the Peace, or engage others in any way at all.

I do not agree with this stance: I believe personal piety is best practiced at home. Church is the coming together of the Body of Christ.

However, as the sign says: The Episcopal Church Welcomes You: the mom with toddlers and the person who doesn't want to be bothered with children, and everyone else in between...thank God!

 

[ChaliceThunder]

One of the Anglican Church's most valuable resources in the domain of child Christian Conformation is Gretchen Pritchard Wolfe, who worked with the Diocese of Toronto and is the author of Offering the Gospel to Children. This idea of a large soft carpet at the front of the church with welcoming adults skilled in child-nurture to help them participate appropriately in the worship, is one of her ideas that I've always yearned to see in action. Theoretically, from what I know of children's needs and learning styles, it should be highly effective, but it pushes the limits of what more conservative congregations are willing to try. I don't believe that she put the carpet inside the Chancel, however; I had the impression rather that they removed a couple pews at the front of the church and put it on the floor of the Nave. Oddly, it's the idea of removing pews that most congregations balk at, even if the pews are standing empty as front pews (and in most cases, 50% of the non-front pews) usually are.

Amen to all you have said - esp. Gretchen: she's awesome!

There's a parish in our diocese that took several pews out, closer to the back, but still with great sight-lines. There they put soft rugs and 3 bentwood rockers!

It's all in the hospitality, isn't it?

 

[Healed_IHS]

Really... it's my standard of "acceptable behavior" that children should not be running on the altar and other distracting behaviors.

If you like that type of environment, well that's why there are different churches... why should I have to worship at the same church you and vice versa?

I have no problem with accepting the children. Children have their "role" to play, adults have theirs. We all have ours. Distractions do not enter into it -- at least in any church that I (and many others) want to worship in.

Further, it's just common courtesy that if your child starts crying during the sermon, to step outside. Why should others (especially the elderly who may not be able to hear well in the first place) strain to hear the message because a parent won't respect the service and step outside?

 

[Healed_IHS]

Also, I would just like to point out the OP's question was
Does your church have a policy of letting children wander where they want and make them feel welcome in Church?

Wander where they want. Running on the altar during the service. Same thing. Answer, no.

 

[pmcleanj]

There's a parish in our diocese that took several pews out, closer to the back, but still with great sight-lines. There they put soft rugs and 3 bentwood rockers!

This is such a rich topic, I must thank SirTimothy for introducing it! I'm glad, ChaliceThunder, that you got engaged at this point!

Good sight-lines for the little ones is absolutely essential to engaging them in worship. Children MUST be able to see what's going on to engage in it, especially while their verbal skills are still nascent as is the case with toddlers. And they have to be physically comfortable: pews are too wide and too high for their little legs and backs to be comfortable, which is why the carpet is a good idea.

Front-of-the-church versus back-of-the-church is an ongoing discussion. Many parents prefer the back because it's easier there to slip out to the nursery, crying room, or bath-room. I prefer the front because I've never seen decent sight-lines from the back, and because distance lessens the degree to which the children experience engagement in the activity going on in the Sanctuary.

Of course, distance lessens everyone's experience of engagement -- and as you point out, some of the protestant/western norm is to avoid engagement in the communal worship and action of the Body. One of the churches we visited and were tempted to make our home at, had rearranged the nave to put a very narrow central chancel in the middle of a long oval of pews, so that there were only front, second- and third-row pews: you couldn't get any further away than that. But they decided at the end of a several-weeks-long experiment with the arrangement, to move them back.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I think part of the problem (perhaps not all of it) is the fact that some people come to church to practice their personal piety. They want to kneel and pray and encounter God in that way. Many of them do not like to pass the Peace, or engage others in any way at all.

I do not agree with this stance: I believe personal piety is best practiced at home. Church is the coming together of the Body of Christ.

However, as the sign says: The Episcopal Church Welcomes You: the mom with toddlers and the person who doesn't want to be bothered with children, and everyone else in between...thank God!

I have to agree with this post one-hundred percent!

 

[Inside Edge]

This idea of a large soft carpet at the front of the church with welcoming adults skilled in child-nurture to help them participate appropriately in the worship, is one of her ideas that I've always yearned to see in action.

This was the practice at my last church, and it was a fantastic place! The added bonus in that scenario was that the supervision was done by all of us parents, on a sort of rotating/informal basis. There would always be a couple of us with the kids up front, while the others could sit and be still or help setting up downstairs, etc.

 

[Tenebrae]

What did Jesus say

[BIBLE]Luke 18:16[/BIBLE]

Kind of self explanatory really, nuff said