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The above, most of the time.... sometimes a person is oblivious, and we turn and smile... if that doesn't work, the next time less of a smile. Pretty soon people understand that "hey, maybe EVERYONE doesn't want a baby crying over the sermon- and hey the priest isn't just preaching to hear themself speak" (most cases).
Then again some people don't or won't get the message.
That's sad.
I'm coming into this conversation very late, but my experience on Ash Wednesday was effected by this. The children went out to the nursery at the beginning of the service, came back for the imposition of ashes, went back out to the nursery, and then came back in for Communion. When they re-entered the sanctuary both times they were quite loud and got their families loud with them. I was distracted from the service for several minutes because of this. First off, I'm very pro-kids and think that they should be as involved in the church as possible, but several families didn't even seem to attempt to quieten their children. Children should be engaged in the service, but their engagement should not cause the engagement of others to be disturbed.
This statement is pretty funny. It's like saying "It's ok for an apple to be red, but only if it is blue."Children should be engaged in the service, but their engagement should not cause the engagement of others to be disturbed.
My thoughts exactly--very well put.This statement is pretty funny. It's like saying "It's ok for an apple to be red, but only if it is blue."
Over the course of a church service, you will not get an entire group of kids to act in such a way that they do not "disturb" the engagement of others on a regular basis. Based on your little qualifiying statement at the end, you might as well say that children should never be allowed in the service.
I love the idea of a group of toddlers and/or preschoolers that is "engaged in the service" for an hour or more - the concept alone is hilarious. At the risk of degrading children the world over: we might as well say that monkeys are welcome in our service so long as they remain engaged and don't distract the people's engagement of the service.
I can understand the frustration with some parents who might not have tried to calm their kids down and restore order a little faster; however, you have a few planks of your own to lay down for the "meet half way" bridge.
I can see how this would be distracting, and here are my thoughts. By making a conscious decision to keep the children in the nursery for the entire service except for the ashes and taking communion, the church is giving the impression to the children and probably to the parents that these are really the only important parts of the service. It is no wonder they were casual about the rest of the service.
It's a mistake many parishes make, in my opinion: shutting the kids up in the nursery or sunday school and then parading them about during the children's talk or communion or children's sunday once a month can give the impression they are more performing than participating.
No, my statement should be interpreted, "It's okay for an apple to be red, just as long as a red apple doesn't insist that every other apple be red."This statement is pretty funny. It's like saying "It's ok for an apple to be red, but only if it is blue."
Over the course of a church service, you will not get an entire group of kids to act in such a way that they do not "disturb" the engagement of others on a regular basis. Based on your little qualifiying statement at the end, you might as well say that children should never be allowed in the service.
I love the idea of a group of toddlers and/or preschoolers that is "engaged in the service" for an hour or more - the concept alone is hilarious. At the risk of degrading children the world over: we might as well say that monkeys are welcome in our service so long as they remain engaged and don't distract the people's engagement of the service.
I can understand the frustration with some parents who might not have tried to calm their kids down and restore order a little faster; however, you have a few planks of your own to lay down for the "meet half way" bridge.
Not really. Let us be fair. Here is a visitor to our church saying "the manner in which this congregation engaged their children didn't really work." He's not saying "Children shouldn't be engaged in the service SO THAT their engagement doesn't cause the engagement of others to be disturbed." He specifically affirmed the first point, that children SHOULD be engaged in the service. So the question is how.This statement -- "Children should be engaged in the service, but their engagement should not cause the engagement of others to be disturbed." -- is pretty funny. It's like saying "It's ok for an apple to be red, but only if it is blue."
Awesome. I do remember hearing a story of one bishop when he visited a church, they took the kids out to sunday school for the sermon [I don't disagree with during the teaching session of the service, that being the sermon only, having age-appropriate teaching for children], and they wandered back in having spent the class decorating individual mitres they made [to explain what the role of Bishop was]. The bishop promptly saw them and insisted that he had to have one, and spent the entire service wearing it instead of his one, to the horror of some of the dear old ladies of the parish.May I share a cool experience?
I just got back from the consecration of the new Bishop of Chicago (my former rector and boss).
They held the event in a HUGE arena. What I found wonderful was this: they had specially prepared a place front and center for young children, right in front of the altar. They put down comfy blankets and a labyrinth rug, plenty of crayons and I think I saw some Godly Play materials. There were a couple of welcoming adults to help supervise. The kids who were there spent part of the time being transfixed by all the pointy hats and smoke; and part of the time coloring or stepping on the mat, or almost anything else. It was wonderful to behold!
This is such a rich topic, I must thank SirTimothy for introducing it! I'm glad, ChaliceThunder, that you got engaged at this point!
Good sight-lines for the little ones is absolutely essential to engaging them in worship. Children MUST be able to see what's going on to engage in it, especially while their verbal skills are still nascent as is the case with toddlers. And they have to be physically comfortable: pews are too wide and too high for their little legs and backs to be comfortable, which is why the carpet is a good idea.
Front-of-the-church versus back
-of-the-church is an ongoing discussion. Many parents prefer the back because it's easier there to slip out to the nursery, crying room, or bath-room. I prefer the front because I've never seen decent sight-lines from the back, and because distance lessens the degree to which the children experience engagement in the activity going on in the Sanctuary.
Of course, distance lessens everyone's experience of engagement -- and as you point out, some of the protestant/western norm is to avoid engagement in the communal worship and action of the Body. One of the churches we visited and were tempted to make our home at, had rearranged the nave to put a very narrow central chancel in the middle of a long oval of pews, so that there were only front, second- and third-row pews: you couldn't get any further away than that. But they decided at the end of a several-weeks-long experiment with the arrangement, to move them back.
Your insights are extremely valuable. These questions must be considered at all ages of development, with a careful eye on the congregation's mission. If you want to grow your congregation and spread the gospel, you MUST form your children. Failure to do so is a sure-fire plan to rob the church of its baptismal ministry.I'd like to get back to Inside Edge's comment -- or endorsement of my comment, to the effect that parents of young children who need help in setting appropriate expectations can't find the help they need, because of unrealistic or contradictory advice.
It takes a fair bit of consideration to enunciate our expectations, let alone formulate them in the first place and then evaluate them wisely. But perhaps those of us who ARE willing to take on that responsibility could do a bit of that here for the sake of our several members who are in the position of BEING parents of young children. The effort of people who will have official responsibility for the pastoral care of parents and children and other members of the Body who also need consideration, that is, of our seminarians and aspirants, might be particularly valuable.
I was thinking of something in the format (and obviously the age ranges are approximate since they are so broad and children so variable):
===========================
When a child is a baby (eighteen months or younger), what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --
When a child is a toddler (eighteen months to three years old), what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --
When a child is a pre-schooler (four or five years old, what should we expect from ;
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --
When a child is a school-child, what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --
When a child is a teenager, what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --
But we are not talking about exclusion, from what I gather. It's the congregations response when a child starts crying and the parent doesn't have the common courtesy for the rest of the congregation to take time to step outside for a bit or children wandering during the service.
Congregations that have signs saying "Children need not enter" don't happen in the main either.
Of course the problem here is that the children were taken out, not once, but twice!I'm coming into this conversation very late, but my experience on Ash Wednesday was effected by this. The children went out to the nursery at the beginning of the service, came back for the imposition of ashes, went back out to the nursery, and then came back in for Communion. When they re-entered the sanctuary both times they were quite loud and got their families loud with them. I was distracted from the service for several minutes because of this. First off, I'm very pro-kids and think that they should be as involved in the church as possible, but several families didn't even seem to attempt to quieten their children. Children should be engaged in the service, but their engagement should not cause the engagement of others to be disturbed.
I would only add to your sage comments, and I bet you would agree:Not really. Let us be fair. Here is a visitor to our church saying "the manner in which this congregation engaged their children didn't really work." He's not saying "Children shouldn't be engaged in the service SO THAT their engagement doesn't cause the engagement of others to be disturbed." He specifically affirmed the first point, that children SHOULD be engaged in the service. So the question is how.
The other question, of course, is whether we have to be black-and-white about this. Perhaps it were better to say "... doesn't cause the engagement of others to be disturbed too much." Visitors may not realize it, and those practicing personal instead of corporate piety during corporate worship may not, but it is impossible for "others" to be engaged in the corporate action of the Church if the Church is not permitted to gather. The absence of our children creates a disengagement for "others", too!
So, what could the church in question have done differently. Higgs and SirTimothy know already that I'm absolutely committed against the notion of sending children out for the lections and sermon, but that is the most common practice of Anglican Congregations, as SirTimothy bears witness in his original post. Certainly that practice inherently causes disruption -- in fact the logistics of "getting the children back from Sunday School" are something most such congregations struggle with. But if a congregation chooses to maintain this chosen* course of action, they still have options to mitigate the consequences.
At one parish they have installed a doorbell that the priest can ring as he's winding up his sermon. This rings in the Sunday School classroom so that they come back at the right time, neither too early nor too late.
At one parish, the priest simply ends his sermon and waits while a runner fetches the children and they all get settled with their parents. The congregation who aren't involved in settling them engage in silent prayer, so there's no liturgical action going on to BE interrupted.
At one parish, the children process in behind a small cross borne by one of their number, and sit together on the carpet at the front.
Perhaps there are other options, if we stay calm and undefensive and examine possibilities. None of these options are silent, and none have the effect of making the children's reappearance unnoticeable. But those were not the goals that were stated.
*and in my humble opinion misguided
Sounds like a bishop who KNOWS how to teach and care for his flock!Awesome. I do remember hearing a story of one bishop when he visited a church, they took the kids out to sunday school for the sermon [I don't disagree with during the teaching session of the service, that being the sermon only, having age-appropriate teaching for children], and they wandered back in having spent the class decorating individual mitres they made [to explain what the role of Bishop was]. The bishop promptly saw them and insisted that he had to have one, and spent the entire service wearing it instead of his one, to the horror of some of the dear old ladies of the parish.
Tim
This just gave me an idea. In our congregation we have greeters and ushers, and they are all supposed to be welcoming and helpful. But I am going to look into the possibility of developing a group of welcomers who have a specific passion for welcoming families with children.I wonder how many people here have struggled to get young children ready for church, get them in the car in their respective car seats, and then parked at an unfamiliar church, gotten them out of their carseats, carrying one, holding one by the hand, with the third holding on to the strap of the diaper bag you have slung over your shoulder, straining to get them all into the church...
Taken them to the nursery once you find it and then, since they are terrified of being left with a stranger and you are uncomfortable leaving them in the nursery since there's only one person working there who looks a bit frail and several older kids who seem quite at home running around a little wildy (not to mention you value having them present with you in church)...
So you go back the the church and find a pew to sit in -- you walk in and look around trying to decide where to sit and there are several almost empty pews with one person sitting on the aisle... and you have to finally climb over a stranger with your kids and you're trapped in that pew...
And you are already hot and sweaty and out of breath from hauling your kids around and you feel like everyone is watching you...
and the service starts and everything's going well, and then your youngest two get fidgety, and the baby wakes up and you're rocking the baby and the 2 year old is whining a little bit, you shush her and give her a pen to color on the back of the bulletin...
And I wonder who has experienced that hot flush that travels over your face as the baby fusses, but you know that if you leave you have to take all of your kids out over the person on the end of the pew and that will cause a commotion...
And -- what happens next:
Someone turns and glares at you and maybe even pointedly informs you that there is a nursery
~or~
Someone leans over and whispers how wonderful it is to hear children's voices in church and smiles at you?
Which scenario would cause you to leave the service in tears and forget about going to church at all?
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