Toddlers in worship

[Healed_IHS]

So, your point of view is -- Children should be able to run around on the altar during a funeral.

 

[Tenebrae]

\

If we, as Anglicans, make it difficult or uncomfortable for young families with small children to attend our services, we are turning away the future of our Church.

Really well said, and quoted for truth

I think it goes deeper than 'the future of our church'. When we fail to make families welcome we are turning away a PART of our church. A crucial part of our church, but nonetheless, part of the same body which we were baptised into. This is crucial anglican theology--if you don't believe the promises you make when these infants are baptised, why do you say 'We do'?

Also, spot on

 

[Tenebrae]

I think what people are saying is that we need to fulfill our baptismal vows to seek and serve Christ in others, which might mean that we have to exercise patience when a child or anyone else makes some noise in church.

Thats it exactly

You nailed it

 

[Tenebrae]

May I share a cool experience?

I just got back from the consecration of the new Bishop of Chicago (my former rector and boss).

They held the event in a HUGE arena. What I found wonderful was this: they had specially prepared a place front and center for young children, right in front of the altar. They put down comfy blankets and a labyrinth rug, plenty of crayons and I think I saw some Godly Play materials. There were a couple of welcoming adults to help supervise. The kids who were there spent part of the time being transfixed by all the pointy hats and smoke; and part of the time coloring or stepping on the mat, or almost anything else. It was wonderful to behold!

excellent, that is brilliant

 

[Tenebrae]

So, your point of view is -- Children should be able to run around on the altar during a funeral.

Call me a lapsed anglican, what ever.


However back in my days of being a more active anglican, I attended a liturgy service every sunday and never once saw a child run onto the alter when the priest was preparing the communion, heck I never saw a child cross the alter rail let alone start pulling things off the alter.


As for funerals, same thing, saw some kids, who would walk up to the coffin to say their goodbyes, however I never once saw a child disrupt the running of a funeral.


That said, it was an awesome church that never had a problem with kids being kids, and heck I dont even think they had a nursery room. Kids were kids, and no body minded

 

[pmcleanj]

I'd like to get back to Inside Edge's comment -- or endorsement of my comment, to the effect that parents of young children who need help in setting appropriate expectations can't find the help they need, because of unrealistic or contradictory advice.

It takes a fair bit of consideration to enunciate our expectations, let alone formulate them in the first place and then evaluate them wisely. But perhaps those of us who ARE willing to take on that responsibility could do a bit of that here for the sake of our several members who are in the position of BEING parents of young children. The effort of people who will have official responsibility for the pastoral care of parents and children and other members of the Body who also need consideration, that is, of our seminarians and aspirants, might be particularly valuable.

I was thinking of something in the format (and obviously the age ranges are approximate since they are so broad and children so variable):

===========================
When a child is a baby (eighteen months or younger), what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --

When a child is a toddler (eighteen months to three years old), what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --

When a child is a pre-schooler (four or five years old, what should we expect from ;
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --

When a child is a school-child, what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --

When a child is a teenager, what should we expect from:
- the child --
- his parents --
- the congregation --

 

[Healed_IHS]

I hear you. I was just commenting on the OP with the child wandering around the sanctuary during the service. Just as Jesus never said they couldn't do that, it doesn't mean he wants them to. Let us remember, even Jesus thought children should be disciplined and taught right from wrong by their parents (paraphrasing) "It would be better for them to take a long walk off a short pier with a large millstone tied around their neck, then to lead the little ones astray). I believe that parents that let their children be disruptive during church are teaching them behaviors which will manifest when they are adolescents as well (not if they are newborns of course - but 3- 5 years old). I refuse to be labeled, as some in this thread have, as a "Bad Christian", and I refuse to apologize.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

So, your point of view is -- Children should be able to run around on the altar during a funeral.

We cannot exclude children simply for the reason that they might do such a thing. As many have already expressed - this kind of thing just doesn't happen in the main.

 

[higgs2]

I do agree that it's common courtesy, should your child start making enough noise that people are not able to hear what is going on (ie screaming), to step outside for a little bit if you can't comfort and settle the child inside. Assuming that you will not be exposed to the elements of course. It's also common courtesy not to glare, frown, make comments under your breath, or outright suggest that parents not bring their children to church, when a child is not completely silent. It's also common courtesy for a church to make efforts to provide ways for it to be easier for parents to bring their children to church, and to welcome children in worship just like everyone else.

 

[Healed_IHS]

But we are not talking about exclusion, from what I gather. It's the congregations response when a child starts crying and the parent doesn't have the common courtesy for the rest of the congregation to take time to step outside for a bit or children wandering during the service.

Congregations that have signs saying "Children need not enter" don't happen in the main either.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I do agree that it's common courtesy, should your child start making enough noise that people are not able to hear what is going on (ie screaming), to step outside for a little bit if you can't comfort and settle the child inside. Assuming that you will not be exposed to the elements of course. It's also common courtesy not to glare, frown, make comments under your breath, or outright suggest that parents not bring their children to church, when a child is not completely silent. It's also common courtesy for a church to make efforts to provide ways for it to be easier for parents to bring their children to church, and to welcome children in worship just like everyone else.

 

[Healed_IHS]

There's only so much that we can do based on child's age (like pm said - different ages / different expectations).

As for the glaring... what does the bible say about the way for correction. If people don't amend after 2 people go to them, have the congregation approach the person in error.

Glaring is much more "polite" then excommunication.

 

[higgs2]

Big assignment. Of the top of my head for the first 2 (because I'm getting tired of typing):
===========================
When a child is a baby (eighteen months or younger), what should we expect from:
- the child -- nothing, really, other than being a baby
- his parents -- to bring the baby to church, to try to get past that feeling that every coo is a loud and disturbing noise, to come back in should they need to leave because of screaming or a diaper change
- the congregation -- to realize how hard it is to get to church or anywhere else with a small baby, to thank God that someone with an infant is interested in attending their church, to accept and forgive the (sometimes) many comings and goings during the service of the parent and child.

When a child is a toddler (eighteen months to three years old), what should we expect from:
- the child -- to learn how to whisper when reminded, to not want to leave their parents or be left in a nursery (more the rule than the exception), to find the goings on at the front interesting if they are close enough to see them
- his parents -- to begin gently teaching the child how to behave during church, to point out and name different parts of the service (now she will break the bread, we stand during "holy holy" that kind of thing), to sit at the front so the child can see, to make sure their child participates in at least some of the service even though it would be a lot easier to stow the kid away in the nursery the entire time, to get up and down a lot.
- the congregation -- to express welcome to the child and his/her parents, to acknowledge the child as a person, to provide coloring materials or soft toys, to help parents by doing something like showing a 2 year old a brightly colored bracelet when he's getting bored and his mama's dealing with the newborn, to not get all wound up when they flip through the prayer book trying to act like the grownups, to be tolerant of children going from person to person during the service -- because that means they feel comfortable with more than just their family! To realize (and this goes for all ages) that the child is their brother or sister in Christ.

 

[higgs2]

There's only so much that we can do based on child's age (like pm said - different ages / different expectations).

As for the glaring... what does the bible say about the way for correction. If people don't amend after 2 people go to them, have the congregation approach the person in error.

Glaring is much more "polite" then excommunication.

a bit all or nothing are we?

Why don't you tell us about how the parents and children in your church behave.

 

[Healed_IHS]

Like considerate humans... if the baby starts to cry, the parent "sucks it up" and stands outside until said baby gets pacified.

 

[higgs2]

Like considerate humans... if the baby starts to cry, the parent "sucks it up" and stands outside until said baby gets pacified.

Do you have a lot of parents with children? Babies?


Why do you have this hostile attitude if your experience is that parents behave according to your expectations in dealing with their children?

 

[Healed_IHS]

The above, most of the time.... sometimes a person is oblivious, and we turn and smile... if that doesn't work, the next time less of a smile. Pretty soon people understand that "hey, maybe EVERYONE doesn't want a baby crying over the sermon- and hey the priest isn't just preaching to hear themself speak" (most cases).

Then again some people don't or won't get the message.

That's sad.

 

[Healed_IHS]

That's 90% of the time. It's the same thing as Christmas Eve service. The first service was the one without the incense. Some people, including me - prefer the incense. People came to the later service and made a point of opening the doors to ventilate the fragrance out. WHY BOTHER COMING TO THAT SERVICE? These people were regulars who knew which service was having what type of "mood".

 

[Healed_IHS]

Why do you have this hostile attitude if your experience is that parents behave according to your expectations in dealing with their children?

The "hostile" attitude is when parent's don't.

 

[higgs2]

Why do you have this hostile attitude if your experience is that parents behave according to your expectations in dealing with their children?

The "hostile" attitude is when parent's don't.

You just said that the parents in your church act like "considerate human beings".

How many members with young children do you have?