Today's Ruling

[LinkH]

lol what? Where exactly are these teams of homosexuals lurking in wait around churches so they can leap out and spit on congregants?

Back during the Prop 8 days, a group of homosexuals protested outside a church and some of them followed the people who came out, yelling at them and spitting on them.

 

[tall73]

Back during the Prop 8 days, a group of homosexuals protested outside a church and some of them followed the people who came out, yelling at them and spitting on them.

There have been over the top responses on both sides. I don't think we can say much simply by looking at the most extreme examples. It won't prove anything to look at the poor approaches to the issue.

Christians are to judge those in the church. Even then the goal is to restore gently whenever possible.

Outside the church we are to give a reason for the hope that we have, but with gentleness and respect.

 

[Matthias Rose]

The propagation of information is a blessing and a curse of our age.

On the one hand, you have a place like this -- where people of all walks of life, all theological, political, and spiritual backgrounds can meet, share, connect, debate, and argue. Sometimes, we even help dissolve the ideological barriers that divide each other.

But on the other hand, for-profit media pick up the most outrageous events, the most egregious stories, the most repulsive actions of the lunatic fringe -- which has surely always been here, but which has generally been confined to one local community or another -- and this for-profit media pushes these wild statistical outliers as examples of what sane, ordinary people do. And it's just not true.

I know thousands of open hearted, loving, compassionate, conservative christians who would give anyone -- straight or gay, black, white, or whatever -- the coat off their back without question. I do not question the "I welcome you with love" heart that so many people bring to this conversation. But the dialog gets twisted by the media into something else. Something divisive, something hateful. Of course there are hateful people out there. There are hateful people in here. And there are people who do not understand how their loving intent ends up being received as incredibly alienating and divisive. But that is the externality of our experience.

What is important is the internality, the intention, the heart.

So, I do encourage all of us to look for the best in each other as we continue this conversation. Look for the love. Look for compassion. Look for ways to understand, and the way of presenting our own hearts such that they are understood.

If someone walks into a bible study and kills people, we look at that person as -- at the very least -- mentally deranged.

If someone spits on people as they walk out of church -- again, this is a broken person, deserving of restraint, yes, but also our compassion. What has happened to them that they are so hateful?

And, if someone condemns you as a sinner and hell-bound heretic despite your own awareness of your connection to God, then open your heart to them as someone who clearly has a lot more passion tied up in this issue than any rational analysis of the situation would warrant!

(But let's all take care of ourselves, too. Turning the other cheek is good for a bruise or two, but at a certain point, someone is just being abusive and needs to be restrained!)

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Technically all this means is they can get married. It doesn't mean anyone outside of the government has to accept it. Such as a church or even a buisness. Though on that buisness thing I think there are going to be more fights ahead about that subject since people can still sue for being rejected at a store to make a cake for example. Me? I don't care what the supreme court says, I don't have to accept a homosexual marriage. Though some in Cananda said they though the same until it became a hate crime to be against homosexuality.

Just a sec. Doesn't God's word tell you that Government officials are sovereign over you and that God has appointed your leaders? Last time I read Romans I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere.

Well God also said to obey mans laws unless they interfere with Gods laws. So for example if pastors our told they must officiate a homosexual wedding, then by the bible they have to ignore what they are being told because Gods law would not want you to do it. Though I think when it comes to that even the government knows they can't force any religion to marry homosexuals if its against their beliefs because we have religious freedoms here. Doesn't mean they won't try to change how religious freedom works though.

 

[cjstabbo]

What a day for marriage, huh?

Marriage is the institution of slavery and it's family the illusion of freedom.

 

[fat wee robin]

I was thinking today that given how dark and deprived the Bible says the human heart is that it this is not surprising.

I believe it does say that the end times will be like the days of Noah.

I don't know to which extent it is the fault of the poor reaching in the churches ,but I never ever hear priests ministers explain (maybe they are ignorant ) that the whole of Creation ,all of it, is ordered in such a way that when anything is changed more than a microscopic bit, automatic failure begins to set in .One good concrete example is Flight ,the developement of flight . When we began to try to fly we had many casualities ,and endless attempts and adaptations took place and gradually it became safer and planes became bigger .After each crash there is a thorough investigation as to why it could have happened and if neccessary refinements are made .

In the history of the human race humans Evolved Under laws which thy could not SEE ,but they knew were there , for when they broke them they suffered , and did not evolve , but often whole societies totally crashed . They would offer a from of repentance to the 'gods'(they were not Evolved enough to know GOD as yet) , and this would often relieve the worst consequences.
When man had Evolved enough (not darwinian ) under Gods rules, he could arrive to where we are now in this modern world . However most of humanity while they can use technology are in fact very unevolved ,and those who are ready for the next stage in God's plan are those who sense the Bigger picture . Those who accept same sex marriage are not yet Evolved enough Under God's law, and only can think in limited ways.(no Holy Spirit ).

Back to the Aeroplane .Having reached this stage in the evolution of flight ,if we start to break any small laws, we will go tumbling backwards, with more and more disasters.
Only people who are incapable of being in the heart and mind of God can support this descent from Divine Law .

 

[fat wee robin]

Ehhh - I disagree. As time goes on, people will grow accustomed to it, and in 30-40 years (or probably even sooner) people won't care less. Gay people will just be gay people over there doing their own thing, getting married and divorced just like everyone else. Straight people will continue getting married and divorced just as they always do, no more, no less...and in the end it will make no difference whatsoever.

So, like I said, a bunch of drama over something that really matters not.

So society according to you stands still ,and we have no effect on each other .
Did you know that the rich in europe could care less about the filthy streets where lived the poor ,or that they were more inclined to disease because the water they drank was contaminated by noxious bacteria etc. and that it took the deaths of many of their own to change that and realise that ALL is linked ,we are all linked .

Did you know that if one tiny bacteria is living on a strawberry ,and you do not remove it from among the other strawberries ,the whole box will rot ? Do you think that the gay lobby will stop at so called marriage ? No, they won't .They want the children to be indoctrnated and made 'gay' ,so that they can have sex with them and change the future society to their image , just like they did it Germany before and during the war . Did you know that it helps to inform yourself before you change the most basic laws in creation ?
aAd finally for the moment ,did you know that Opium was legitimate in the 20's in England and very popular among the chattering classes, (forced on the Chinese ) until it's deadly effects were realised and it was banned ?
All actions have conséquences especially those made into the law of the land ;I hope all you nodding libertarians are ready for the conséquences to your personal karma
which will ensue .It may take a while , but it will come .
Remember there are homosexuals who just want to live their personal lives without disturbing the natural law on children etc. , and it could have ended there ,living
our individual lives as no one would have been 'forced '. It is no longer possible, and that is he fault of extremists .

 

[fat wee robin]

Marriage is the institution of slavery and it's family the illusion of freedom.

When people were don ther

I think what you're remembering is something I said a while back where I talked about my first exposure to homosexuality...which was...

The first time I was ever exposed to homosexuality was purely by accident when I was probably 8-9 years old. My folks took me to the beach for the July 4th weekend to stay at our family's cabin. Everyone was partying outside at night - and I went outside to take a look. Right across the street were two dudes full on making out.

I found the experience jarring...and found the sight un-nerving/aberrant/kinda revolting and beyond what I could fathom. It really did bug me for a while when I was a kid - because I couldn't even conceive that two dudes could see each other that way. Kissing, in my mind, was what mommy and daddy did (man and woman - heterosexual) - even though I of course didn't see the whole picture of what that meant yet...lol

I remember you commented on that at the time...so that's probably what you're remembering.

Personally, I find the thought of gay sex kinda revolting and un-natural. But I figure that's because I'm straight and I'm not wired that way. The fact that I find that behavior kinda revolting on a physical level doesn't mean, however, that I'm prepared to say "Hey, I'm gonna stop you from doing that and/or I'm going to use that as my basis of deciding whether or not you and your partner ought to be afforded the same legal privileges as what I'm afforded."

So, I really haven't "jumped on the gay marriage" bandwagon. I was never off it. It's my distaste for homosexual behavior on a personal fundamental level (once again because I'm straight) that has always been there. But, I recognize that in many respects my distaste for that is really no different than my distaste for many other behaviors that aren't my cup of tea. I don't cross the line into looking it as an ethical issue.

People in certain parts of Asia eat dogs. I find that distasteful. Is eating a dog an ethical issue? IMHO, no. Same difference to me.

To that end - yeah - I'm probably pretty socially liberal - with a lot of libertarian leanings.

And a lot more children are going to be exposed ,and will commit suicide because
this rotten society tells them ,that this degrading behaviour is good ,and how dare they criticise it . Whereas if they saw heteroes doing it in public like homos do it ,or with prostitutes, we would be allowed to say disgusting , but not with 'gays' .

 

[Armoured]

When people were don ther

And a lot more children are going to be exposed ,and will commit suicide because
this rotten society tells them ,that this degrading behaviour is good ,and how dare they criticise it . Whereas if they saw heteroes doing it in public like homos do it ,or with prostitutes, we would be allowed to say disgusting , but not with 'gays' .

"and commit suicide"?

Kind of extreme response.

 

[Matthias Rose]

And a lot more children are going to be exposed ,and will commit suicide because
this rotten society tells them ,that this degrading behaviour is good ,and how dare they criticise it .

There seems to be something wrong with your keyboard. You may want to get that looked at.

But to the point, this doesn't really call for a response simply because it is so ludicrous, but I do want to note that many, many young people, discovering that they are homosexual in families, communities, churches, and a broader culture that considers that "disgusting" and "perverted" commit suicide. This happens all the time. This is not theoretical or hypothetical. This is what a culture of hatred results in. It results in young people so disgusted by themselves that they take their own life.

I have never heard of anyone killing themselves because they were forbidden from bullying others. I suppose it could happen, but I have never heard of it.

So to anyone young people here reading your post, please know that "fat wee robin" is on the extreme fringe of any group, and this kind of thinking does not represented Christianity or Christian love.

 

[HannahT]

Actually, a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual (or do homosexual stuff in homosexual acts with kids.)

Not according to statistics supplied by creditable sources (FBI, American Psychological Association, among others). The Child Molestation Research & Prevention Institute notes that 90% of child molesters target children in their network of family and friends, and the majority are men married to women. There are different types of pedophiles as well. Anita Bryant needed to stick to orange juice after being debunked many times.

This is one of those hateful stereotypes that people use against minority groups they don't like. It's not different than the hateful stereotypes that Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.

It's one thing to NOT like their lifestyle - or however people wish to label it - and spreading awful lies about a group. You mention the lie often enough, and people start to think its fact. Most pedophiles are into children - not same sex children. Majority of pedophiles are Caucasian, and married with children.

 

[HannahT]

Calling homosexual acts sin is a good thing to do, because it is perversion. Calling adultery and other forms of fornication sin is also a good thing to do. Homosexuals going following Christians around after they get out of church and yelling and spitting on them is a bad thing to do.

Who is requiring you to call the 'acts' a good thing? No one. The government told us they are allowed to marry, but they can't require anyone to accept the marriage. It's no different with traditional marriages.

I don't remember adultery or other forms of fornication even being brought up on this subject, or the government telling us we must endorse them. Why even bring that up when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

People do stupid things all the time. That includes Christians. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand at all.

 

[DZoolander]

So society according to you stands still ,and we have no effect on each other .
Did you know that the rich in europe could care less about the filthy streets where lived the poor ,or that they were more inclined to disease because the water they drank was contaminated by noxious bacteria etc. and that it took the deaths of many of their own to change that and realise that ALL is linked ,we are all linked .

Did you know that if one tiny bacteria is living on a strawberry ,and you do not remove it from among the other strawberries ,the whole box will rot ? Do you think that the gay lobby will stop at so called marriage ? No, they won't .They want the children to be indoctrnated and made 'gay' ,so that they can have sex with them and change the future society to their image , just like they did it Germany before and during the war . Did you know that it helps to inform yourself before you change the most basic laws in creation ?
aAd finally for the moment ,did you know that Opium was legitimate in the 20's in England and very popular among the chattering classes, (forced on the Chinese ) until it's deadly effects were realised and it was banned ?
All actions have conséquences especially those made into the law of the land ;I hope all you nodding libertarians are ready for the conséquences to your personal karma
which will ensue .It may take a while , but it will come .
Remember there are homosexuals who just want to live their personal lives without disturbing the natural law on children etc. , and it could have ended there ,living
our individual lives as no one would have been 'forced '. It is no longer possible, and that is he fault of extremists .

Your response is one of the most bizarre ones I've ever read.

No, society does not stand still. Society adapts, and things that were once controversial become the norm. People stop thinking about them as being something "new" or worthy of consideration - because it's now become "how things are". That is, and has always been, the progression of society.

As to the rest of your post - somehow I doubt that giving gays the ability to inherit property from each other, be treated as spouses/family in hospitals, file taxes jointly, etc...is going to be the harbinger of doom that you seem to think it is.

And that really is what we're talking about.

 

[HannahT]

I think that's a valid point, but most people who I've seen speak out against this perversion aren't acting like the folks from Westboro Baptist.

The lies that people are accepting are a perversion of the truth. Government can't require people to endorse or accept anyone's marriage. Yet, that argument seems to be pretty popular today. So, are you saying you can only point that out if they are acting like Westboro Baptist on top of the false perception people are receiving? I think not.

 

[DZoolander]

Can someone clarify for me what the true distinction is between the common stuff you hear about how gays are abominations, destined for hell, etc...and the stuff that the Westboro folks do?

I mean - true they might not hold up signs, use the word "hate", or the f term for gays...but really...isn't that just a matter of "We agree with them, we just don't like their choice of tone" and stepping it back one notch?

 

[DZoolander]

...and is it really stepping it back a notch when you're also calling them pedophiles trying to "recruit", saying they're one step away from bestiality, etc?

 

[Matthias Rose]

Thank you EZ. That's something that needed to be said.

I think a lot of conservative christians hold the principle of "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Unfortunately, when they really hate the sin, and the recipient of this attitude (A) disagrees that it is sin, and/or (B) feels that it is integral to their nature and identity, as opposed to a choice they made -- suddenly this distinction becomes meaningless.

"It is a perversion" becomes logically indistinguishable from "you are a pervert." And there's really no way that this is not heard as hate speech, even if the speaker did not intend it to be so.

One distinction that many more constructive conservatives make is this one: "Calling out sin is only appropriate for those in your own faith community." (For varying definitions of faith community.) Thus any of these opinions on sin or sinner are inappropriate when directed at people outside the church. And this makes good practical sense too, because telling people they are going to hell has not been a very good motivator to learn more about Christianity for at least 100 years. You may scare some young people into going to church for a few years, but it doesn't last, and when they decide to leave they typically do so with prejudice.

Again, Jesus taught love. We all agree on this, at least in principle. Maybe we can work a little harder on living it.

 

[mkgal1]

Usually, governments don't pass laws these days that overtly require children to be poor or children to be abused. Governments have legalized murdering babies in the womb, an extreme form of child abuse, and I do see Christians respond with a great deal of passion over this child abuse issue. And this is a child abuse issue where there are protestors on the streets in favor of keeping the murderous abuse legal. So it's to same sex so-called 'marriage' in that regard, with people on the streets in favor of legalizing wickedness.

I think you're missing the point.

By "passion expressed" over poverty; child abuse; sex trafficking/sex industry....I don't think that was brought up having anything to do with "passing laws". We *have* laws against all that---yet some people that have their behinds in pews each week (even some that are behind podiums) are actually contributing to these injustices instead of doing something to help those that are victims or changing broken systems.

Since you brought up abortions....that reminds me of another point: why are the people that are so vocal against abortion usually the same ones that are also against government assistance (things that help the children that are already here on this earth)? If "every life is important"....then why aren't the hungry children just as important to them? To condemn a mother for making a choice like that without helping her wreaks of a lack of compassion to me. Instead....they cheer for food stamp programs being cut (and vote in favor of things that take away from innocent children--you know, the ones they didn't want aborted and weren't).

 

[dinonum]

I cried out of happiness the other day when I woke up and saw that this had passed

 

[JustHisKid]

What a day for marriage, huh?

Not so much for God.