Today shalt thou be with me in paradise: explained

[Francis Drake]

Paul never claimed to have gone to paradise.

Yes he did.-
2Cor12v 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

 

[1watchman]

Nevertheless, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

Yes, that is true, if one is a true saint of God! Bible scholars show that the faithful sinner on the cross with Jesus, was about to go to the same place as was Jesus. That place was in "Abraham's bosom" ---which was the other half of "...the great gulf fixed" in Hades. We see that Hades is a holding place for all the OT saints until Jesus descended there to take "...captivity captive" ---as taking them with Him up to "paradise" ---Heaven. Today, Hades is still a holding place for all lost souls & adjacent to the fire of Hell. At the Great White Throne shown in Revelation all souls in Hades will then be cast into the "lake of fire" forever. You can learn more on this also at the Biblecounsel.net web site.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes he did.-
2Cor12v 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

"I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself"

So according to Paul he is not talking about something he experienced but of someone else he knew.

 

[ewq1938]

We see that Hades is a holding place for all the OT saints until Jesus descended there to take "

Why then are Lazarus and Abraham not in Hades with the rich man?

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Only the rich man was in "hell".

 

[Francis Drake]

"I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself"

So according to Paul he is not talking about something he experienced but of someone else he knew.

I disagree. Paul was just referring to himself in the third person as you will find in most, if not all commentaries.

But even if you are right and Paul is referring to someone else, it still proves the point I was making in the original post that Paradise was accessible.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree. Paul was just referring to himself in the third person as you will find in most, if not all commentaries.

But even if you are right and Paul is referring to someone else, it still proves the point I was making in the original post that Paradise was accessible.

He literally says he isn't talking about himself so he isn't speaking in third person. I agree that Paradise was accessible. John also went there. I don't know the timelines. Could Paul have been talking about John?

 

[Francis Drake]

He literally says he isn't talking about himself so he isn't speaking in third person. I agree that Paradise was accessible. John also went there. I don't know the timelines. Could Paul have been talking about John?

You are pointlessly arguing with better men than me or you.-

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
12:1-6 There can be no doubt the apostle speaks of himself.

12:1-6 There can be no doubt the apostle speaks of himself.

 

[1watchman]

Why then are Lazarus and Abraham not in Hades with the rich man?

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Only the rich man was in "hell".

There is a difference between Hades and Hell ---a holding place with a "great gulf fixed" between the lost souls and "Abraham's bosom" is what is called "Hades"; and Hell is the "lake of fire for condemned souls, where the first occupants will be the two "beasts" of Revelation (the ref. of the "rich man" being there should have been translated "hades". The man in hades was suffering the awful heat of everlasting fire nearby. See my post above as to these differences, and refer to the site at Biblecounsel.net.

 

[ewq1938]

There is a difference between Hades and Hell ---a holding place with a "great gulf fixed" between the lost souls and "Abraham's bosom" is what is called "Hades"

Like I said, only the rich man was in Hades in the story. Abraham and Lazarus are not in Hades.

You said, "Hades is a holding place for all the OT saints"

And that is proven false by this:

Luk 16:23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If the OT saint Abraham isn't in Hades then none are.

 

[1watchman]

Like I said, only the rich man was in Hades in the story. Abraham and Lazarus are not in Hades.

You said, "Hades is a holding place for all the OT saints"

And that is proven false by this:

Luk 16:23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If the OT saint Abraham isn't in Hades then none are.

It is not proven false, as you say, for these events must be viewed in proper sequence as I showed originally.
Today Hades IS the holding place for ALL lost souls when they die and awaiting the time when souls will be cast into Hell --the "lake of fire" (no souls are in the fire yet ---see Revelation and the "Great white throne); but up to the day of Christ Hades was in TWO compartments (as Bible scholars show), and as "...a great gulf fixed" between them. Abraham's bosom was the resting place for faithful saints on one side, and the other side was for the condemned souls. When the Lord Jesus descended to Hades after His death, He "led captivity captive" ---lifting the OT saints up to "paradise" --Heaven, to be with Himself. There are now NO two compartments, and all unsaved souls go to Hades (presumably adjacent to the fire, so are suffering, it thus seems). I hope this helps you in seeing the bigger picture.

 

[ewq1938]

but up to the day of Christ Hades was in TWO compartments (as Bible scholars show), and as "...a great gulf fixed" between them. Abraham's bosom was the resting place for faithful saints on one side, and the other side was for the condemned souls.

It's still two different places very far apart. That's not two compartments in one place. The very passage states the rich man was in Hades, so the other place isn't also hades.

 

[stephen pollard]

The Christian does not go straight to heaven when they die:
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.’ john6:39&40

When is the last day?
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’a]'>[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death”b]'>[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’
Rev20:11-15&21:1-4

The last day Christ referred to is the last day of this present earth. On that day is the general resurrection of the dead. Immediatley following this, the old earth and the old Heaven will pass away, and a new earth and a new heaven(the new Jerusalem) will come. It is there, that God will dwell with His people.
There is a resurrection one thousand years earlier for a limited amount of people(Rev20:4&5) but the general resurrection of the dead is what most focus on.

 

[1watchman]

It's still two different places very far apart. That's not two compartments in one place. The very passage states the rich man was in Hades, so the other place isn't also hades.

You can believe whatever your want, but what I shared is what many scholars have revealed and showed from Scripture; and my studies have confirmed it.

 

[Karola]

The paradise Jesus referred to when he spoke to the thief was not heaven:

Jesus said, ‘Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father John 20:17

 

[ewq1938]

The paradise Jesus referred to when he spoke to the thief was not heaven:

Jesus said, ‘Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father John 20:17

That is a reference to his future bodily ascension not when his spirit went to the father when he died, which is in heaven where the thief was when he also died.