Today shalt thou be with me in paradise: explained

[Matthew13:9]

Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The interpretation of today is found in verse 8 of the scripture below:

2 Peter 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Call me Nic]

Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The interpretation of today is found in verse 8 of the scripture below:

2 Peter 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is a twisting of scripture. 2 Peter 3:8 is referring to the eternal nature of God, that he exists outside of time and is unaffected by it.

 

[redleghunter]

Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The interpretation of today is found in verse 8 of the scripture below:

2 Peter 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus actually said 'today' meaning that day. No need to read into it unless one subscribes to soul sleep or soul annihilation.

 

[Dave-W]

Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

There were no lower case/upper case letters in the original, nor was there any punctuation. English and Greek word order is also much different.

So the punctuation where it is is pure commentary. It is equally well translated like this:

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Kinda changes it, don't ya think?

 

[Call me Nic]

There were no lower case/upper case letters in the original, nor was there any punctuation. English and Greek word order is also much different.

So the punctuation where it is is pure commentary. It is equally well translated like this:

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Kinda changes it, don't ya think?

Nevertheless, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Dave-W]

2 Peter 3:8 is referring to the eternal nature of God, that he exists outside of time and is unaffected by it.

Correct. Other places say God sees the end from the beginning. It is like you or me seeing a reel of a movie. If we look at the film we can hold the opener and the ending credits and see them both side by side. God looks at the timeline we exist in the same way.

 

[redleghunter]

There were no lower case/upper case letters in the original, nor was there any punctuation. English and Greek word order is also much different.

So the punctuation where it is is pure commentary. It is equally well translated like this:

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Kinda changes it, don't ya think?

What is the justification in English to move the comma? When we have:

1. John 3:11:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness."

2. John 5:19:

"...Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

3. John 8:58:

"...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

4. John 1:51:

"...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man."

Those are just a few, but you get the drift. Consistency in the Verily statements.

 

[Dave-W]

What is the justification in English to move the comma?

What is the justification for even having a comma?
It is not in the original, so anywhere it is put is just a guess.

Those are just a few, but you get the drift. Consistency in the Verily statements.

Different author.
And John is the only NT author that uses the ἀμήν ἀμήν construction, the double amen. So the idea of consistency between Luke and John on sentence structure is pointless.

 

[Mark51]

No punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Therefore, punctuation marks shown in translations must depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense-in this example-of Jesus’ words.

Punctuation used in languages-specifically English-did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Some translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection.-1 Corinthians 15:20; Colombians 1:18.

That being so, Jesus’ promise would reasonably point to a restoration to an earthly condition. His promise to the wrongdoer would therefore give assured hope of a resurrection of such an unrighteous one to an opportunity to life in that restored Paradise. Compare Matthew 6:10; Acts 24:15; Revelation 20:12, 13; 21:1-5.

 

[ewq1938]

What is the justification for even having a comma?
It is not in the original, so anywhere it is put is just a guess.

It is not a guess if the Holy Spirit is leading someone to understand the verse. And to make a point I want you to know I am saying this to you today.

 

[Francis Drake]

There were no lower case/upper case letters in the original, nor was there any punctuation. English and Greek word order is also much different.

So the punctuation where it is is pure commentary. It is equally well translated like this:

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Kinda changes it, don't ya think?

You are just clutching at straws to justify a belief.

I agree with you in regard to the punctuation being absent in the original, but to make the word "today" refer to the earlier part of the sentence is poor linguistics, and makes the word completely irrelevant to what Jesus was telling the thief.
ie. It could be completely left out in your construct
Given the struggle both Jesus and the thief were undergoing, I suspect that superfluous words and words that could be misconstrued would not be added.

On that point alone, Jesus was referring to the immediate result for that specific night.

The same can be seen in the following statement, which nobody in their right mind would abuse as you have done with the above verse.

Mark14v30And Jesus says to him, "Truly I say to you that now this night,...……………………..
.....................before that the rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times."

Does the "this night" refer to the night in which Jesus happened to be speaking or not, and if not why not? You shifted the meaning at the cross, why not do it here also? You can't make a rule and apply it just once to suit yourself.

You also need to address the question, that if Jesus added the word "today" as a way of making people aware that he was actually speaking that day as opposed to yesterday or tomorrow, why don't we see it constantly used in all his addresses to people.
"Hey guys, I am speaking today...……….."
Instead we see it only in the statements where it is necessary to define what is shortly to follow!
ie. Paradise that day for the thief, and denials that night from Peter.

 

[Dave-W]

You are just clutching at straws to justify a belief.

What "belief" do you think am I supposed to be justifying?

 

[Francis Drake]

What "belief" do you think am I supposed to be justifying?

Ha, got me there Dave.
There are those who insist that the thief could not be going to Paradise that day, but it would happen thousands of years in the future in the general resurrection. The time in between is one of so called "soul sleep".
If my accusation wrong, my apologies.

Incidentally, the comma argument genuinely works real well elsewhere.

 

[Dave-W]

Incidentally, the comma argument genuinely works real well elsewhere.

I have no axe to grind either way. I am just trying to make people aware that there is more than one way to take certain passages; and where punctuation can cause a serious change in understanding, EVERYONE needs to be aware the mere presence of a comma is commentary.

"This is how I think it should be understood."

 

[Dave-W]

There are those who insist that the thief could not be going to Paradise that day, but it would happen thousands of years in the future in the general resurrection. The time in between is one of so called "soul sleep".
If my accusation wrong, my apologies.

No apology necessary. I took no offense. I was just curious what you thought I might be trying to say.

FWIW, I do NOT believe in "soul sleep" as it is an assumption that God and Eternity are subject to the same time flow we are. I believe there is scriptural support for the idea that God, Heaven, etc exist totally OUTSIDE of time.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

What is the justification for even having a comma?
It is not in the original, so anywhere it is put is just a guess.

God does not deceive.

Three ways Luke 23:43 could have been.
1) “Truly I tell you, you will be with me in paradise.”
2) “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
3) “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Examples 1) and 2) mean the same. There is no point to adding the today in 2); it is to no benefit or clarification. Problem, it adds ambiguity as many argue this text. So why would God add words that only confuses his message? God does not deceive. To do so would be deceptive. Now if we take the meaning of 3) we understand the text does add something significant.

It should be obvious that additional words in scripture add meaning, not ambiguity so 3) is the only one that makes sense.

Some look to Acts 20:26 for an unnecessary addition of the word "today". It is added for emphasis and with or without it, the text means the same and there is no ambiguity to it.

Different author.

Jesus is the author of scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If you run a search for the words "say unto thee" not a single time does "today" or "tonight" or anything similar follow those words. It was not a figure of speech to indicate that you were speaking to someone "today" because it was already clear when the person was speaking. Whenever "say unto thee" is used in scripture, what comes next is always part of what is being said so the verse and it's comma are in the proper placement as we see in the KJV. Jesus did say the thief would be in paradise that same day. When you die, your spirit returns to God and it happens the same day you die if you are saved and forgiven as the thief had been.

 

[ewq1938]

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Mat_26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mar_14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

The "today" or "this evening" is still always associated not with the telling part but the event that is going to happen. So he is saying "today" we both will be in paradise, and "this evening" you will deny me three times.

Again, never is Christ informing someone that he is talking to them "today" or "this evening" since that is already understood. What he is saying happens, either today or this evening are the events that are about to happen. The person is being informed that Paradise will be entered that same day, or that Peter would deny Christ that evening.

Christ therefore was not open endingly saying "eventually you will be with me in Paradise" but was affirmed that TODAY he would be with Him in Paradise just as Peters denials weren't eventually going to happen but were going to happen THAT EVENING.


First part of each verse is the common affirming expression Christ used:

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee

Mat_26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee


Second part is when something will occur:

To day

That this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow


Third part is what was going to happen that day or night:


shalt thou be with me in paradise.

thou shalt deny me thrice

 

[Francis Drake]

No apology necessary. I took no offense. I was just curious what you thought I might be trying to say.

FWIW, I do NOT believe in "soul sleep" as it is an assumption that God and Eternity are subject to the same time flow we are. I believe there is scriptural support for the idea that God, Heaven, etc exist totally OUTSIDE of time.

I also agree that God exists outside of earth's time frame.
Which leads on to some other thoughts on the subject.-

Jesus told the thief that he would be "with me" that day. So i​

f the thief was subject to some warping of normal time that pushed Paradise to a distant future, Jesus would have to be subject to the same "time warp".
Thus Jesus would be barred from visiting his father immediately after his death.

Another problem is in the claim from some theologians that paradise effectively remains unpopulated till the rapture, or the second coming etc.
The same thinking also claims that as Adam and Eve were barred from Paradise, then that prohibition remains valid until the heavenly city descends and reigns on earth.

The question must then be, "Was Paul deluded when he went to Paradise"?
Of course they claim he only visited in his spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

The question must then be, "Was Paul deluded when he went to Paradise"?
.

Paul never claimed to have gone to paradise.