Today is a sad day

[ChaliceThunder]

The cynical side of me figures the homophobic aversion to gay marriage is based on a fear that the gay unions might be "better than" the straight ones, given that the track-record of the straight ones leaves much to be desired.

I am positive this is true!

 

[tulc]

How on earth did you come to THIS conclusion?

How can gay monogamy possibly be homophobic???

You know how it is, Mercy found a quote from some gay guy, and it just took off from there.
tulc(hey Chalice!)

 

[ChaliceThunder]

You know how it is, Mercy found a quote from some gay guy, and it just took off from there.
tulc(hey Chalice!)

Questionable source to be sure!

(heya tulc - I was amazed to read the you were drinking a SODA earlier! )

 

[tulc]

Questionable source to be sure!

(heya tulc - I was amazed to read the you were drinking a SODA earlier! )

It was a moment of weakness.
tulc(back on the brewed bean!)

 

[LunarPlexus]

My reason for wanting to get people to vote for equal treatment under the law for gay people is because it affects my rights and other people's rights directly. It's not just a theoretical issue. It affects whether real people like me can marry their spouses or not under civil law.

If it takes getting out the vote to win equal rights under the law, then I will work to get out the vote.

Don't get me wrong, I want the same things you do, but if someone genuinely thinks granting these rights to us is morally wrong, then I can't expect them to help in attaining these rights. All I can do is present a point of view and then leave it to them.
I wouldn't like ANYONE to not stand up for what they believe in.
My mother refuses to get married until gay couples can. She doesn't see why she should take advantage of a privelige that isn't granted to me or others. That was her choice, I didn't come up with that, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to make the same stand, but I think that's a pretty good form of support

 

[Texas Lynn]

Such as? You, always say the same thing over and over, about all this violence and death that is foisted upon the homosexual community, but for all your rhetoric you have presented no proof that shows the reality of the situation is anywhere close to as bad as you say it is.

Not sure what you're getting at. I suppose there are some who believe hate crimes don't occur but there are some who think there is no racism in America any more either. I've found answering for demands for sources are often a futile game. The information is there. www.hrc.org has links to FBI statistics but it's in Adobe Acrobat format and can't be copied. You can find it through the search box on HRC's home page by typing in "hate crime statistics".

Just what is my faction?

You post here as a strict adherent to the religious right party line.

Would that lead people who are currently opposed to gay marriage to suddenly have compassion and sympathy for homosexuals? No, it wouldn't.

Nothing will except for a change in hardened hearts.
​

Christians will respond fervently when they think the teachings of the Bible are being misrepresented, and that's not just limited to homosexuality but other debates as well. The Trinity and Universalism debates get quite heated as well and, in the case of Universalism, the debates are more heated than they are with this issue.

Perhaps in certain cases. But not with the same degree of nastiness.
​

 

[Texas Lynn]

Oh no, ridiculing others is strictly your domain. You constantly accuse people of being fundamentalists and part of a murderous faction. You don't see that kind of hatred and personal attack coming from me. That's ALL you. Own it.

I'm not sure what the objection is to being called fundamentalist when one expresses fundamentalism. As for rhetoric from pulpits leading to hate crimes that's not my assertion, it's Tony Campolo's from 20 Hot Potatoes Christians are Afraid to Touch.

Yeah, cuz heterosexual kids are never ever sent to Bible camp and told they're going to hell for masturbating and/or having sex.

​

Sure it is. Your example stated that it's only the homosexuals who are hauled off to camp and told they're going to hell for being who they are. My example showed you that heterosexual kids are told the same things for being who they are. In other words, there's nothing special about homosexual adolescents in this regard. Heterosexual kids receive the same treatment.

That's kind of like comparing the Nazis treatment of Jews to their treatment of stamp collectors.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Which mega-church would that be? And what makes you think I'm a Republican? Ya know with a couple clicks of the mouse you could find out what church I actually do attend, but then you'd have to post truthful statements about me and we all know that's not what you do.

Irony passes you by apparently.

 

[Texas Lynn]

So it's only Fundamentalists, who have need of scriptural support for their statements? Fundamentalism, was a movement within Christianity in the early 20th century. Not every Christian is a Fundamentalist.

True. It is also however an accurate label for the socially conservative, selectively legalistic religious right faction.

This is a Christian Theology forum. Asking for scriptural support for statements made in here is not badgering. But hey if you think you have a case, report me. You are the one who badgers people around here, with your constant accusations that people belong to factions and are hell-bent on killing LGBT's, simply because they disagree with you.



I'm still waiting for you to understand it and get a grip. You think I'm a Fundamentalist, which shows how little you know about Fundamentalism.

Feel free to be what you wish. If things are demanded and not freely given it is badgering to continue to harp. I wouldn't call it a reportable offense, just bad behavior.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Okay, then you're presnting for the most part, emotional evidence. Emotional evidence might change someone's mind for a day, but for people who live their life according to God's revealed will, emotional evidence is not as convincing as God's revealed word. Now you may get a lot of votes with appeals to emotion, but don't feel bad when people who based their lives on something other than emotion and feeling vote against gay marriage.

The opposition to LGBT folks being treated decently is entirely based on emotion.

 

[Texas Lynn]

TL, I don't understand your answer. You're saying that the reason you won't let people live their faith is because of the children of people who are engaged in religious extremism?

I think in most cases when people stand up for what is right it is due to concern for the next generations.

According to you, everyone who is a Christian, is a religious extremist.

I've never said that. I'm a Christian and I'm not a religious extremist. Most Christians I know are not. People like those who attacked the guy with the Kerry sticker are, though.

So what are you doing to remove those kids from such a dangerous environment? You should be able to answer this question. But I'm gonna go ahead and venture a guess. I'm gonna guess that you'd have no problem if the state came in and removed these kids from Christian households, but you'd scream bloody murder if the state tried to take kids away from a gay couple.

Actually, no. But in specific cases where the kids aren't safe, regardless of the parents' religious affiliations or sexual orientations, kids must be removed according to specific and narrow legal procedures. The religion or sexual orientations of the families are irrelevant in these things. what is relevant is danger to the children where it exists.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The cynical side of me figures the homophobic aversion to gay marriage is based on a fear that the gay unions might be "better than" the straight ones, given that the track-record of the straight ones leaves much to be desired.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Isaiah 29:15-16

What sorrow awaits those who try to hide their plans from the Lord,
who do their evil deeds in the dark!
“The Lord can’t see us,” they say.
“He doesn’t know what’s going on!”
How foolish can you be?
He is the Potter, and he is certainly greater than you, the clay!
Should the created thing say of the one who made it,
“He didn’t make me”?
Does a jar ever say,
“The potter who made me is stupid”?

 

[MercyBurst]

The cynical side of me figures the homophobic aversion to gay marriage is based on a fear that the gay unions might be "better than" the straight ones, given that the track-record of the straight ones leaves much to be desired.

Divorce leaves a lot to be desired, not God's plan for marriage.

I don't believe anyone is seriously thinking that somehow a gay marriage is going to be better than what God designed. The reasons often cited for gay marriage do not include a lifetime commitment, which is what the God of the Bible intended for marriage.

On the otherhand, when a gay person represses their sexual desire, this is considered homophobic. So we can conclude that gay marriage will require a certain degree of homophobia by both gays, where they avoid other gays.

 

[MercyBurst]

Yeah, the "no true Scotsman" argument.

Me thinks you want to move the goalposts for a fundamentalist. I know what a fundamentalist is. A fundamentalist believes the Bible is inerrant. Maybe you'd like to change that definition.

I'm not so sure what "no true Scotsman" means, but I'm sure a definition is in order somewhere, and if you want to move the goal posts far enough, then everyone is a Scotsman, whutever a Scotsman iz.

uhmmm I'm not the one saying they're no longer worthy of being pastors. I'm one of them liberals, I just expect them to be faithful to their spouses (of which ever sex ), otherwise I'm disappointed.

The Bible says a blemished pastor ain't fit for the job of pastor:

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

A good pastor can serve in the position for ANYONE. I just don't see how an ex-wife can be under his pastoral care. Do you?

Since fundies believe the Bible is inerrant, then they abide by its teaching. I'm sorry but there are no divorced and remarried pastors serving in a fundie church. The Bible is the goalpost, and anyone that moves the goalpost can not claim to be a fundie. They can still be a Christian however.

BTW, I'm never disappointed in what the Bible says. It says I have eternal life in Jesus Christ too. That makes me happy.

I know, because they "Aren't True Fundies".
tulc(man it's humid here today, how about there?)

Well tulc, I suppose we can move the goal posts and say Gene Robinson is a closet fundie.

 

[Ohioprof]

Don't get me wrong, I want the same things you do, but if someone genuinely thinks granting these rights to us is morally wrong, then I can't expect them to help in attaining these rights. All I can do is present a point of view and then leave it to them.
I wouldn't like ANYONE to not stand up for what they believe in.
My mother refuses to get married until gay couples can. She doesn't see why she should take advantage of a privelige that isn't granted to me or others. That was her choice, I didn't come up with that, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to make the same stand, but I think that's a pretty good form of support

I agree with this. All I can do is present a point of view and leave it to those who may be listening either to accept or reject it. Ultimately, people will vote as they choose, based on their views of what is moral and right and good for the society. Presenting a point of view, making one's case as effectively as possible, is what being politically active is about.

It is interesting to me that, in some states anyway, attitudes toward gay people and toward same-sex marriage have been changing as we have become more visible and as people have thought through the consequences of denying same-sex couples the right to marry. In Massachusetts, polls now show that a majority of people there support same-sex marriage. And the polls indicate that it may be very close in the vote in California. I am also heartened by the growing support for same-sex civil marriage among younger people.

Bravo to your mother, btw.

 

[Ohioprof]

Divorce leaves a lot to be desired, not God's plan for marriage.

I don't believe anyone is seriously thinking that somehow a gay marriage is going to be better than what God designed. The reasons often cited for gay marriage do not include a lifetime commitment, which is what the God of the Bible intended for marriage.

On the otherhand, when a gay person represses their sexual desire, this is considered homophobic. So we can conclude that gay marriage will require a certain degree of homophobia by both gays, where they avoid other gays.

No, homophobic is people spreading false and hurtful and silly stereotypes around. Homophobic is telling falsehoods about gay people, to present gay people as somehow less committed to marriage than heterosexuals are.

Who has cited reasons for same-sex marriage that "do not include a lifetime commitment?" The whole point of getting married is to make a lifetime commitment. Gay people seek the equal right to marry because they DO want to make a lifetime commitment, and because they want this commitment honored by the state and their families recognized by the state and treated by state law in exactly the same way as families headed by opposite-sex couples are treated. Gay people get married for the same reasons heterosexuals do.

First some opponents of same-sex marriage attack gay people for wanting to get married, and then they attack gay people for what they claim is a lack of commitment to marriage. These opponents of same-sex marriage make contradictory arguments.

 

[MercyBurst]

No, homophobic is people spreading false and hurtful and silly stereotypes around. Homophobic is telling falsehoods about gay people, to present gay people as somehow less committed to marriage than heterosexuals are.

It can be argued that "gay monogamy" is a form of internalized homophobia

Internalized homophobia (or egodystonic homophobia) refers to homophobia as a prejudice carried by individuals against homosexual manifestations in themselves and others. It causes severe discomfort with or disapproval of one's own sexual orientation. Internalized homophobia is thus a form of cognitive dissonance; the individual cannot reconcile the conflicting conscious or unconscious sexual desires with values and tenets gained from society, religion or upbringing.

Gays tell us if they marry the opposite sex, that this is homophobic, because they are yielding to social pressure for acceptance.
The same argument can be made for gay marriage.

Who has cited reasons for same-sex marriage that "do not include a lifetime commitment?" The whole point of getting married is to make a lifetime commitment.

I submitted this poll. In the poll I was the only person that thought monogamy is a lifetime commitment.

Then I wrote this commentary on sad marriage:

Then take a look at the reasons for gay marriage. Some of the reasons include a legal protocol for an intestate will, greater access to government pension perks for the privileged few, a more lenient tax code, and hospital visitation rights. A commitment for life is almost unheard of as a reason for gay marriage. Love for another is replaced with convenience and personal needs for oneself. This is a sad kind of marriage indeed.

Gay people seek the equal right to marry because they DO want to make a lifetime commitment, and because they want this commitment honored by the state and their families recognized by the state and treated by state law in exactly the same way as families headed by opposite-sex couples are treated. Gay people get married for the same reasons heterosexuals do.

I keep hearing "same as heteros." Why stop short with gay marriage? If you want to be like a hetero then be a hetero.

First some opponents of same-sex marriage attack gay people for wanting to get married, and then they attack gay people for what they claim is a lack of commitment to marriage. These opponents of same-sex marriage make contradictory arguments.

The definition of marriage is being changed where it is no longer a man and a woman, no longer intended for a lifetime commitment, and no longer means much of anything. That's what bothers me personally.

 

[MercyBurst]

How on earth did you come to THIS conclusion?

How can gay monogamy possibly be homophobic???

"Gay monomamy" is a form of internalized homophobia that tries to conform to the values of a straight relationship as much as possible. Note the post above this one. It explains.

Internalized homophobia is thus a form of cognitive dissonance; the individual cannot reconcile the conflicting conscious or unconscious sexual desires with values and tenets gained from society, religion or upbringing.

 

[tulc]

Well tulc, I suppose we can move the goal posts and say Gene Robinson is a closet fundie.

They're your goalposts Mercy, and they do seem to shift quite a bit.
tulc(see you guys in a couple of weeks)