Today is a sad day

[tulc]

Tell me, do YOU see two people as UNmarried who have covenanted themselves before God who refuse to get that godless govts 'permission' ?
The answer will reveal a lot about your understanding of what 'marriage' is in scripture.

hmmm help me out here, have they gone through a wedding ceremony and exchanged vows? Because to me, it's the covenanting together that (IMHO) makes it a marriage.
tulc(otherwise I'm having a hard time telling the difference between "being married before the Lord" and just living together)

 

[Texas Lynn]

Readers of my posts may have heard me tell before how my late step-grandmother, a child of the American South, cried when her (formerly segregated) high school elected an African-American homecoming queen. She was a dear person but mired in the racism of the day.

So also is it for those who see this great advancement in human progress as "sad". In doing so they commit oppression of LGBT folk wrongfully and commit a great sin by doing so.

The same old trite arguments about how LGBTs are different from African-Americans impress no one, not even the jackleg preachers receiving patronage from the religious right. Oppression is oppression regardless of the characteristics of its victims.

It is true California voters will be voting on a referendum question related to this matter. To express delight at the prospect that marriages which have occurred from June 17 on will be invalidated is indeed an unfortunate act for which those expressing same should be greatly ashamed.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord today. He will take the homosexual addiction from you. Then all those who get giddy with their intellectual garbage won't know what to do with themselves...

God is not mocked and He is not impressed with the use of the intellect He has given some of you...He will have the final word, and it's coming very soon.

Have you read Tenebrae's posts in these threads? Or those of 2 or 3 others who have said they have been praying for years for God to make them heterosexual?

People who have posted that they are celibate or are remaining faithful in a marriage with someone of the opposite sex just because of obedience to what they think God wants of them, while their sexual orientation has never changed?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I personally dont really care one way or another when it comes down to it.
Either way things go is a win situation in my opinion.

Either all those 'marriages' will be annulled if its reversed.....or many in the church who understand the scriptures will start to see the light if its not.

I dont think you answered my question from before, Liz.
Are you for men 'marrying' men or not?
Do you approve or not?
Its not a hard question

.

By separating marriages in the eyes of godless caesar from marriages in the eyes of God, you make this a hard question to answer. Some of us might have different answers, depending on which category of marriage we are talking about.

I used to agree with you that the church should separate these into two categories, but the more I saw the ramifications, the more the idea of two standards came to trouble me. The place where two standards clashes is a place I know is of concern to you. If the church judges some marriages legitimate in the eyes of caesar but not in the eyes of God, will the church then work to break up those marriages? I know you oppose those in the "standers" movement who take it that far.

The commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," is not only for the married person, but also for the neighbor of the married couple who is called upon to respect his neighbor's marriage. The more we do to make marital status uncertain, the more we undermine the spirit of this commandment. This is a problem with every system that refuses to recognize some marriages.

The principle behind "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is that we must respect both our own marriages and our neighbors' marriages. If I begin to think of my neighbor's marriage as less legitimate than my own marriage, I violate the principle of this commandment just as much as if I lust in my heart.

As for my personal feelings, why is that important? Can't someone join a discussion even though they may not have made up their mind 100%?

I find some of the arguments presented here more persuasive than others. Those that refuse to acknowledge the reality of some people's experience I find least persuasive of all.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Have you read Tenebrae's posts in these threads? Or those of 2 or 3 others who have said they have been praying for years for God to make them heterosexual?

People who have posted that they are celibate or are remaining faithful in a marriage with someone of the opposite sex just because of obedience to what they think God wants of them, while their sexual orientation has never changed?

What you describe is a partial work done by the person. It is a work of the Holy Spirit that delivers a person and makes them whole. That is what these people need. They can have total freedom in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't want people in desperation, working hard at being celibate! He wants people to be whole, and men being men and women being women and desiring the opposite sex as He has designed them! In the power of the Holy Spirit, the Christian can be freed of all that vice and condemnation! Jesus comes in and saves us, but the Holy Spirit, when He comes in like a flood in his baptizing power, He fills us up to overflowing with power to live in righteousness.

The people you describe have not found the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their lives.



A little online visit to the Florida Outpouring on God.tv would do wonders!

 

[Texas Lynn]

[Addressed to Hunting Man] I know you oppose those in the "standers" movement who take it that far.

What do you mean by "standers"?

Those that refuse to acknowledge the reality of some people's experience I find least persuasive of all.

Well put. In Wesley's Quadrilateral experience is the most important of the four criteria.

 

[Texas Lynn]

What you describe is a partial work done by the person. It is a work of the Holy Spirit that delivers a person and makes them whole. That is what these people need. They can have total freedom in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't want people in desperation, working hard at being celibate! He wants people to be whole, and men being men and women being women and desiring the opposite sex as He has designed them! In the power of the Holy Spirit, the Christian can be freed of all that vice and condemnation! Jesus comes in and saves us, but the Holy Spirit, when He comes in like a flood in his baptizing power, He fills us up to overflowing with power to live in righteousness.

The people you describe have not found the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their lives.



A little online visit to the Florida Outpouring on God.tv would do wonders!

None of this applies at all to LGBT Christians who came from conservative-fundamentalist denominations which led them to seek to change their sexual orientation unsuccessfully only to later embrace who and what they are.

Better any day to be a homosexual, even a celibate one, rather than one who wags his fingers at others.

Some years ago Focus of the Family Citizen ran a cover story on an alleged "ex-gay" named John Paulk married to an "Ex-lesbian," Ann Paulk. Well, J. Paulk was given a high profile job with Family Research Council, the more politically blatant spinoff from Focus, with a fancy Washington D.C. office. Well, J. Paulk was identified after work as a patron of a gay bar near Capitol Hill, first by other patrons, then by the media. Focus responded by spiriting off the Paulks to Idaho or some equally remote place. The Paulk saga was rightfully viewed by those in the know as the logical result of attempting to change what one is to fit into a preconceived ideology.

 

[Crazy Liz]

What do you mean by "standers"?

I thought you had encountered them before, too. They include groups like these:

http://www.rejoiceministries.org/

http://www.cprmarriageministry.org/CPR_God_Restores_Marriages.html

Basically, people who think marriage is permanent, even to the point of trying to break up second marriages after divorce.

Well put. In Wesley's Quadrilateral experience is the most important of the four criteria.

 

[Zecryphon]

FA, I disagree with your assertion that the people Liz has described are doing a "partial work", by remaining celibate or by entering into marriages with people of the opposite sex. Those people are recipients of an amazing gift from the Holy Spirit, they have received the power to deny themselves, to deny who they are and to live their life in a way that is in accordance with what God has declared is pleasing to Himself. No one can perform a work like that on their own. It is only by God's grace that we receive the gift of faith. It is by God's grace that these people have received the power to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow after Christ. You think it's a partial delivery because they're still attracted to the same sex? Did you ever stop to think that maybe God's not done with them yet? That maybe He's still working a miracle in their lives? I say these people's testimonies are proof that God can deliver anybody from their sinful nature and transform them into a true disciple. Instead of attacking people who don't fit your pre-conceived idea of what a truly delivered person is, why don't you tell them that they are the best proof there is that God can and does change people? And if you want people to see the power God has to transform lives, don't point to God.tv, point to these people and point to God and His written word!

 

[HuntingMan]

By separating marriages in the eyes of godless caesar from marriages in the eyes of God, you make this a hard question to answer. Some of us might have different answers, depending on which category of marriage we are talking about.

I used to agree with you that the church should separate these into two categories, but the more I saw the ramifications, the more the idea of two standards came to trouble me. The place where two standards clashes is a place I know is of concern to you. If the church judges some marriages legitimate in the eyes of caesar but not in the eyes of God, will the church then work to break up those marriages? I know you oppose those in the "standers" movement who take it that far.

The commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," is not only for the married person, but also for the neighbor of the married couple who is called upon to respect his neighbor's marriage. The more we do to make marital status uncertain, the more we undermine the spirit of this commandment. This is a problem with every system that refuses to recognize some marriages.

The principle behind "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is that we must respect both our own marriages and our neighbors' marriages. If I begin to think of my neighbor's marriage as less legitimate than my own marriage, I violate the principle of this commandment just as much as if I lust in my heart.


I find some of the arguments presented here more persuasive than others. Those that refuse to acknowledge the reality of some people's experience I find least persuasive of all.

Wow...all that and no answer, Liz ?

Are you ok with men having sex with men or not ?

As for my personal feelings, why is that important?

huh.
Why is it important that one knows what sin is or not ?
I have no clue.

Can't someone join a discussion even though they may not have made up their mind 100%?

Sure they can.
I just dont understand how a person can read the whole bible as you say you have and not come to one conclusion or another.

 

[HuntingMan]

I used to agree with you that the church should separate these into two categories, but the more I saw the ramifications, the more the idea of two standards came to trouble me. The place where two standards clashes is a place I know is of concern to you. If the church judges some marriages legitimate in the eyes of caesar but not in the eyes of God, will the church then work to break up those marriages? I know you oppose those in the "standers" movement who take it that far.

And I can argue my case with Gods word in that matter.
Is there ANY case FOR men 'marrying' men in Gods word?
Is there ANYthing in scripture about men having sex with men that ISNT negative ?

Im open to ANY evidence from Gods word that one has to offer.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I thought you had encountered them before, too. They include groups like these:

http://www.rejoiceministries.org/

http://www.cprmarriageministry.org/CPR_God_Restores_Marriages.html

Basically, people who think marriage is permanent, even to the point of trying to break up second marriages after divorce.

Well, if you go to Theology Online its' guru Bob Enyart and his acolytles are advocating a constitutional monarchy for the U.S. There are French monarchists who want to bring back the Bourbon dynasty. We have in Kentucky a creationist museum. One can find organized nutjobbery everywhere. But, no, I hadn't encountered them. I have encountered goths who self-mutilate for erotic motivation. You've merely revealed the existence of some of the farther shores of human affiliations as here I have described organized bedlam to which it compares.

 

[Texas Lynn]

FA, I disagree with your assertion that the people Liz has described are doing a "partial work", by remaining celibate or by entering into marriages with people of the opposite sex. Those people are recipients of an amazing gift from the Holy Spirit, they have received the power to deny themselves, to deny who they are and to live their life in a way that is in accordance with what God has declared is pleasing to Himself. No one can perform a work like that on their own. It is only by God's grace that we receive the gift of faith. It is by God's grace that these people have received the power to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow after Christ. You think it's a partial delivery because they're still attracted to the same sex? Did you ever stop to think that maybe God's not done with them yet? That maybe He's still working a miracle in their lives? I say these people's testimonies are proof that God can deliver anybody from their sinful nature and transform them into a true disciple. Instead of attacking people who don't fit your pre-conceived idea of what a truly delivered person is, why don't you tell them that they are the best proof there is that God can and does change people? And if you want people to see the power God has to transform lives, don't point to God.tv, point to these people and point to God and His written word!

Disagree. I believe those engaged in such have committed an incredibly bizarre and futile gesture harmful to themselves and society all for the purpose of political correctness.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Wow...all that and no answer, Liz ?

Are you ok with men having sex with men or not ?

Objection, badgering the witness.

One can either be "okay with men having sex with men" or one can be reality-impaired; there's no other way to be on that.

BTW, there are other kinds of homosexuals. Sounds like a lot of "thinking within the box" going on there, IOW fear of differing lives and views.

I just dont understand how a person can read the whole bible as you say you have and not come to one conclusion or another.

Another indication of a desire to cling to preconceived notions is indicated in these comments indicating cognitive dissonance. IOW: "Stop confusing me with the facts! My mind is made up!"

 

[Texas Lynn]

And I can argue my case with Gods word in that matter.
Is there ANY case FOR men 'marrying' men in Gods word?
Is there ANYthing in scripture about men having sex with men that ISNT negative ?

Im open to ANY evidence from Gods word that one has to offer.

Your grasping at straws indicates the limitations of ancient texts rather than of modern relationships. You won't find specs for a Tomahawk Missile between Judges and Ruth either.

 

[HuntingMan]

Another indication of a desire to cling to preconceived notions is indicated in these comments indicating cognitive dissonance. IOW: "Stop confusing me with the facts! My mind is made up!"

Nice try, poster....shall I present the scripture again with the greek definitions included ?
I hardly had any preconceived ideas and I certainly didnt write the Bible

 

[KCKID]

Your grasping at straws indicates the limitations of ancient texts rather than of modern relationships. You won't find specs for a Tomahawk Missile between Judges and Ruth either.

Are you sure? I could have sworn that I'd come across a text pertaining to Tomahawk Missiles SOMEWHERE during my excursion through the scriptures. Hmmm (rubs chin in thought) ...maybe I'm mistaken. Ah yes ...now that I'm thinking clearer on this issue I do believe that the specs for a Tomahawk Missile are nowhere to be found in the Bible after all. Therefore, they don't exist. I mean God would have spoken about them if they DID exist, wouldn't He? So, I can't in all good faith believe in their reality either. If it ain't in the Bible I don't want to hear about it. Nothing outside of the scriptures exists.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Nice try, poster....shall I present the scripture again with the greek definitions included ?
I hardly had any preconceived ideas and I certainly didnt write the Bible

No but you made a conscious choice to promote selective literalism of it which confirms your preconceived notions. If you would choose to exercise independent analysis you would readily see such is merely an unsupported application of ancient cultural artifacts utilized out of convenience while equivalent measures are ignored.

 

[Hentenza]

Post-modernist philosophy is so out of context is amazing.

 

[Zecryphon]

Disagree. I believe those engaged in such have committed an incredibly bizarre and futile gesture harmful to themselves and society all for the purpose of political correctness.

What's PC about receiving the power from God to deny who you are and entering into a heterosexual marriage? Explain that. Cuz to me, the PC thing to do would be to not denounce gay sex as a sin for fear of the verbal repercussions from people like you.