Toba Catastrophe

[the_Radio_Star]

Between 70,000 and 75,000 years ago, a volcano erupted in Sumatra. The ash spread into the atmosphere and reduced the temperature, and may have been responsible for the death of 90% of humanity. Evidence includes a giant lake in Sumatra, ash spread over India, and the genetic bottleneck it created for humans.

A similar event on a much smaller scale occured 1816, after the Mount Tambora volcano explosion on the island of Sumbawa. Climate changes also occured in 535 and 536, probably because of an eruption at Krakatoa. After the Krakatoa eruption in 1883, "bright nights" were reported all over the world.

A very interesting event in its own right, but even more interesting compared to Noah's flood. My intent isn't to discuss the problems with a global flood, but rather to explore how both Genesis and natural history tell us that there was a major natural disaster early in human history which nearly caused human extinction. It's impossible that people living in the ancient world would have known anything about this, as it happened so far back into pre-history.

 

[AngryWomble]

You are indeed correct about the devastating potential of Volcanic eruptions. Did you know that after St Helens there was some funky atmospheric happenings due to the ash kicked out then? Not to mention how screwed we'd be if Yellowstone went off!

However these are all read and there is no way that a flood occured in the way that literal bible creationists make out. It's not possible in a whole host of ways.

But anyway, back to volcano's, they're pretty and i like them....

 

[SeaShepherd]

You are indeed correct about the devastating potential of Volcanic eruptions. Did you know that after St Helens there was some funky atmospheric happenings due to the ash kicked out then? Not to mention how screwed we'd be if Yellowstone went off!

However these are all read and there is no way that a flood occured in the way that literal bible creationists make out. It's not possible in a whole host of ways.

But anyway, back to volcano's, they're pretty and i like them....

They kill millions, what's not to like.

 

[sfs]

Between 70,000 and 75,000 years ago, a volcano erupted in Sumatra. The ash spread into the atmosphere and reduced the temperature, and may have been responsible for the death of 90% of humanity. Evidence includes a giant lake in Sumatra, ash spread over India, and the genetic bottleneck it created for humans.

The problem with this theory is that the bulk of the genetic evidence says that there was no bottleneck in human population size within the last 10,000 years. (Within Africa, that is -- populations leaving Africa experienced substantial bottlenecks, presumably related to the small size of the migrating groups.) The Wikipedia article does not address the large amounts of genetic data that have been collected in the last ten years.

A very interesting event in its own right, but even more interesting compared to Noah's flood. My intent isn't to discuss the problems with a global flood, but rather to explore how both Genesis and natural history tell us that there was a major natural disaster early in human history which nearly caused human extinction. It's impossible that people living in the ancient world would have known anything about this, as it happened so far back into pre-history.

Despite popular belief, humans have not been reduced to small numbers within the last couple of hundred thousand years.

 

[peter22]

They kill millions, what's not to like.

Good Christian attitude.

 

[Nooj]

but rather to explore how both Genesis and natural history tell us that there was a major natural disaster early in human history which nearly caused human extinction.

The theme of major natural disasters is common in religious stories, not just Genesis. So if Toba really is evidence for the Flood story (I don't see how, one affects the global climate and the other swamps the Earth's surface), the catastrophic event is also evidence for numerous other religions.

 

[SeaShepherd]

Good Christian attitude.

Did you miss the ?

 

[peter22]

Did you miss the ?

Fine, your joke is merely inappropriate instead of offensive & inappropriate.

 

[AngryWomble]

They kill millions, what's not to like.

The loss of life caused by volcanic eruptions is always a tradgedy.....that does not nullify the sheer magnificance and spectacular displays of power and beauty that volcanic eruptions represent. They show us that we live on a dynamic and powerful planet, and that it is 'alive' and changes over time. They remind us that life is a delicate balance and needs the right conditions to prosper, they remind us that it is the people that are more important than the place when families can escape volcanic eruptions and re-build their lives. We are at the mercy of nature and she is a wonderous thing.

Besides it's not my fault that those people choose to live in areas that are hazardous or go into the danger zones when they've been told not to. I'm a Geologist, of course i'm going to find volcanos alluring.

 

[SeaShepherd]

The loss of life caused by volcanic eruptions is always a tradgedy.....that does not nullify the sheer magnificance and spectacular displays of power and beauty that volcanic eruptions represent. They show us that we live on a dynamic and powerful planet, and that it is 'alive' and changes over time. They remind us that life is a delicate balance and needs the right conditions to prosper, they remind us that it is the people that are more important than the place when families can escape volcanic eruptions and re-build their lives. We are at the mercy of nature and she is a wonderous thing.

Besides it's not my fault that those people choose to live in areas that are hazardous or go into the danger zones when they've been told not to. I'm a Geologist, of course i'm going to find volcanos alluring.

Lot of volcanos in England, are there?

 

[the_Radio_Star]

However these are all read and there is no way that a flood occured in the way that literal bible creationists make out. It's not possible in a whole host of ways.

Let me explain something: I did not mean that a global flood ever occured, especially not within the last 10,000 years, and I don't know why so many people in this thread think that I did.

My point was that Genesis says that a natural disaster occured which greatly reduced the human population early in human history (Noah's Flood), and natural history also says that a natural disaster occured which greatly reduced the human population early in human history (Toba). Toba (an actual event) is in not way connected to Noah's flood (a story), except in that regard. In no sense was I saying that Noah's flood actually happened (although a regional flood may have been the basis of the story).

 

[the_Radio_Star]

The problem with this theory is that the bulk of the genetic evidence says that there was no bottleneck in human population size within the last 10,000 years. (Within Africa, that is -- populations leaving Africa experienced substantial bottlenecks, presumably related to the small size of the migrating groups.) The Wikipedia article does not address the large amounts of genetic data that have been collected in the last ten years.


Despite popular belief, humans have not been reduced to small numbers within the last couple of hundred thousand years.

Never did I claim that there was a genetic bottleneck within the last 10,000 years. The bottleneck would have occured shortly after Toba, between 70,000 and 75,000 years ago.

Steven Ambrose's theory (hypothesis?) is that the cold climate folowing the eruption would have reduced the human population to 1,000 to 10,000 "breeding pairs." Those sound like small numbers to me.

 

[the_Radio_Star]

Good Christian attitude.

I think he was making a play at the fact that evil non-believers are responsible for "killing millions of people." That's a red herring and an out of place potshot.

 

[the_Radio_Star]

The theme of major natural disasters is common in religious stories, not just Genesis. So if Toba really is evidence for the Flood story (I don't see how, one affects the global climate and the other swamps the Earth's surface), the catastrophic event is also evidence for numerous other religions.

Never did I make the claim that Toba is evidence of a flood. I explained this a few posts ago.

 

[sfs]

Never did I claim that there was a genetic bottleneck within the last 10,000 years. The bottleneck would have occured shortly after Toba, between 70,000 and 75,000 years ago.

Steven Ambrose's theory (hypothesis?) is that the cold climate folowing the eruption would have reduced the human population to 1,000 to 10,000 "breeding pairs." Those sound like small numbers to me.

Sorry, I left off a zero in my post; it should have said that there had been no overall bottleneck in humans within the last 100,000 years. (Hey, what's an factor of ten here or there?) It was a reasonable hypothesis, but later genetic studies haven't supported it very well. Instead, humans seem to have had an effective population size of 10 to 15 thousand for an extended period.

 

[AngryWomble]

Lot of volcanos in England, are there?

There are a few though, all extinct though. Did you mean Active Volcanos?

 

[SeaShepherd]

There are a few though, all extinct though. Did you mean Active Volcanos?

Extinct volcanos aren't that thrilling to watch, are they?

 

[Loudmouth]

Sorry, I left off a zero in my post; it should have said that there had been no overall bottleneck in humans within the last 100,000 years. (Hey, what's an factor of ten here or there?) It was a reasonable hypothesis, but later genetic studies haven't supported it very well. Instead, humans seem to have had an effective population size of 10 to 15 thousand for an extended period.

For one example of contradictory evidence for a recent bottleneck:

Science. 1995 Dec 22;270(5244):1930-6.

Comment in:
Science. 1996 May 31;272(5266):1363-4.
Science. 1996 Nov 29;274(5292):1552-4. ​

The myth of Eve: molecular biology and human origins.

Ayala FJ.
University of California, Irvine, USA.
It has been proposed that modern humans descended from a single woman, the "mitochondrial Eve" who lived in Africa 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. The human immune system DRB1 genes are extremely polymorphic, with gene lineages that coalesce into an ancestor who lived around 60 million years ago, a time before the divergence of the apes from the Old World monkeys. The theory of gene coalescence suggests that, throughout the last 60 million years, human ancestral populations had an effective size of 100,000 individuals or greater. Molecular evolution data favor the African origin of modern humans, but the weight of the evidence is against a population bottleneck before their emergence. The mitochondrial Eve hypothesis emanates from a confusion between gene genealogies and individual genealogies.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Extinct volcanos aren't that thrilling to watch, are they?

Active volcanoes are a beautiful thing. Sure some people die (tragically), but volcanism is probably partially why we have an atmosphere, why we have water on the surface. It is an indicator of a healthy planet that is dynamic and "alive"!

Volcanism is part of livable planet, we are merely riding its coattails.

As for dormant volcanoes, those are cool too! Very attractive features. Try a visit to the Taos Volcanic fields. Remember these aren't extinct, just sleeping.

Capulin Volcano is pretty nifty.

And the Bandelier Tuff not too far away is also quite interesting:

Provided some nice homes for various indian tribes in the past!

The stuff is easy to work and light. So, again, humans make use of the natural "disasters" the earth provides us.

Indeed, "what's not to like"?

 

[AngryWomble]

Extinct volcanos aren't that thrilling to watch, are they?

Actually you couldn't be further from the truth!!! They give us some of the best insights as to the inner workings of active volcanos.