To tithe or not to tithe...

[Techbot]

I've recently had conversations with other Christians who don't pay tithe based on the fact that there is no command for it in the NT. What do you say?

 

[armothe]

If you belonged to a church, why wouldn't you want to pay a tithe?

Many of the 1st century Christians gave everything they had to found the local bodies of the church.

-A

 

[Techbot]

If you belonged to a church, why wouldn't you want to pay a tithe?

The belief was based on the fact that there IS no command in the NT, therefore the tithe was something based on the old covenant and not to be done today.

 

[Superman]

I've recently had conversations with other Christians who don't pay tithe based on the fact that there is no command for it in the NT. What do you say?

No NT command?

Matthew 22
15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said.
16 And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.
17 "Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?"
18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
21 hey said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, " Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
22 And hearing this, they were amazed, and eaving Him, they went away.

This was their attempt to get the people to go go against Him. If he said "Dont pay the tax" then the Romans would be angry. If he said "Do pay the tax" the Jews would be angry. So Jesus tricked them.

Now understanding that Jesus was dealing with men who knew the law inside and out, and so did Jesus. The point is, Jesus is referring to "what is God's." So what is God's?

Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If God is robbed, that means His possession was taken. And what was the possession taken?


Tithes.

Jesus reaffirmed that men ought to pay their tithes. They aren't robbing the men, they are robbing God Himself.

And why on earth would you not want to support your church?

 

[desper84unity]

I used to belong to a church where we gave three tithes that we found mentioned in the Bible. Amazingly we were blessed above and beyond all that tithing.

However, I believe the tithing system was part of the old covenant.

Why people go dippin' into the old testament to prove it still applies to the new covenant, is beyond logical.

I believe we should give as we (those with the Holy Spirit) are lead by the Spirit. From a cup of cold water, to everything; money, possessions, even selling our house if the Holy Spirit leads us as individuals. We should never give grudingly, if we feel grudging we are not being led by the Spirit. After all ,God loves a cheerful giver. That doesn't mean we should fake it. We should give primarily to two set of recievers, the physically poor, and the spiritually poor. Widows and orphans is an ideal receiver. Giving to a cost effective mission that is reaching the lost, is giving to the spiritually poor. Conversely giving that hurts our ability to provide the necessities to our aged parents, or our children is wrong.

I think giving a straight 10% to a church that uses it for three fulltime pastors, when one would do, or for an expensive church building, or even elaborate crusades that don't reap believers is wrong.

I think if you think about sacrificing our lives to God and the work of preaching the gospel, we should expect to be led by the Spirit to live simple and frugally and give all that we can to evangelism, and bibles, and enough to the poor widow and orphans.

 

[armothe]

The belief was based on the fact that there IS no command in the NT, therefore the tithe was something based on the old covenant and not to be done today.

All commands and covenants aside....
your friend/s want to attend a church, but not help keep it running?

-A

 

[BarbB]

I used to belong to a church where we gave three tithes that we found mentioned in the Bible. Amazingly we were blessed above and beyond all that tithing.

However, I believe the tithing system was part of the old covenant.

.

Don't you still want those blessings? I do and have been blessed beyond belief since beginning tithing.

 

[desper84unity]

Perhaps you miss-understand. I am not tithing a tenth, I am giving time, money, and blood and sweat, in a more responsive way to God's purposes. I have the satisfaction that I know I am obeying Christ, and believe my contribution and sacrifice now are more effective than giving according to an old covenant rule.

The reason I mentioned being blessed under the old covenant tithing I used to do was to show that even when we are off base Christ looks at our heart and blesses accordingly.

I do not give to get, I give to obey. I love obeying God, and am blessed by the freedom of his Lordship.

 

[swordman]

No NT command?

Matthew 22
21 hey said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, " Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

I would like to ask a question, if I may. If Jesus was upholding the continued requirement to tithe under the Old Testament Law in the above verse, then why do "churches" not DO with the "tithe" what that same Law demands? When "churches" use that "tithe" for its own support, God's Law does not make ANY allowances for that. That is nothing but the people lavishing their giving back upon themselves. The temple itself was not supported by the "tithe". Its upkeep was supported by the "offerings" above and beyond the "tithe". Besides, Jesus was also addresing a people who were still under the Law since the New Covenant had not yet been established.

The point is, Jesus is referring to "what is God's." So what is God's?

So, giving what is God's to a "church" institution that we know will abuse what is given is STILL giving to the Lord? That is not responsible giving on the part of each professing believer. Search the scriptures for yourself, and you will see that ALL the tithe went for the meeting of needs, not "church" buildings, carpeting, chandeliers, sound and video equipment, etc., etc.

Please pardon my observation, because I mean no offense, but what it appears that you are doing here is pitting God's word against itself. Paul of Tarsus, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that each man should give whatsoever he pusposes in his heart. He said nothing to the Gentile churches about any continued requirement to obey the Law of tithing. What basis of authority is your "pastor" relying upon as to which Laws still apply, and which do not? Can a man, on the basis of his own thinking, pick and choose what the people are bound by, and what they are not? Is it not hypocrisy for him to place the people under one aspect of the Law, and yet not obey the reciprocal Laws that deal with what is to be done with that "tithe"?

Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If God is robbed, that means His possession was taken. And what was the possession taken? Tithes.

But Malachi was talking to the leadership, not just the people. It was the Levites and the priests who were robbing God by taking the best for themselves that was supposed to be offered to the Lord first and foremost. They could partake of it later, but they were FIRST taking the choice of the tithe offerings for themselves. The people stopped bringing in the tithe because of the scandal of the religious leadership themselves. Read those verses in context again, and pay close attention to the language.

Jesus reaffirmed that men ought to pay their tithes. They aren't robbing the men, they are robbing God Himself.

What is strange is that Jesus did not at all utter a word about "tithes" in the above passages. We are to offer more to the Lord that is His due than just tithes. Worship is a way of life, not just something we do behind four walls. How many professing believers know that? Very few, and I dare say that most are not worshipping God with that which is acceptable.

And why on earth would you not want to support your church?

This too is confusing. Now, I have no problem with people supporting their institutional "church" if they so choose, so long as that support is SECONDARY to their PRIMARY responsibility in giving, but the TRUE Church is not represented by these man-made organizations that most call a "church". The local church in your city is a fragmented, schismatic body that should be unified, but is not. The local church does exist, but it is not what it once was and should be.

In Christ Jesus

Dr. Don Dean

 

[Fiat]

tithing is not just in the form of monies..it is also in the form of time. God tells us to give him 10%, that also means 10% of a 24 hour day. That time can be spent in helping a brother, counseling, reading God's word, prayer, mediating on his Word, working in his house, etc. God will bless and bless those who are obedient to him.

 

[Superman]

However, I believe the tithing system was part of the old covenant.

Why people go dippin' into the old testament to prove it still applies to the new covenant, is beyond logical.

Then by your logic, we can chuck out the 10 Commandments too, for that is the very foundation of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant...

Let me state plainly that I am not a Judiazer, and I do not believe we are justified by works of the law, nor do I believe that just because we accepted Jesus, we are to become a Jew... I read Galatians and Hebrews to learn that...

But listen, the moral code that the Old Law stood for I think we all would agree still stands. No one disputes that. Otherwise, I can kill you with no condemnation from God. The sub-laws that dealt with sacrifices and such do not apply, for Jesus was the sacrifice we base our faith on, we are cleansed by, and are justified. Not burnt turtle doves and ritual cleansings.

So is tithes part of a moral obligation, or one more in a laundry list of do's and don'ts?

Jesus said this:

Mattew 22:35
One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

22:36
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law ?"

22:37
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

22:38
"This is the great and foremost commandment.

22:39
"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

22:40
"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Jesus repeatedly reinterpreted the Law to show its intent is what is important. Just read the Beatitudes to get that. That said, I believe tithing to your local "institution" is Biblical, not based on the letter of the Law, but motivated by love for God, and your Christian brothers and sisters.


And let me say this. My wife and I are employed by our church fulltime. I am a graphic artist, and took a major paycut in order to help with the ministry, because to me, the Gospel getting out was more important than anything. If it were not for our tithe payers, we would be out of a job. My pastoir does not "impose" upon people to pay tithes, and I know for a fact quite a few in the congregation do not. What's funny is, these same people always find themselves in a financial rut.. Seems that the "curse" of robbing God still holds true, for although I make half of what I used to, I'm constantly being blessed by strange situations. But I tithe, in spite of my small salary...

I will agree that tithing transcends monetary aspects. Time is valuable too. But I fail to understand why, if God has blessed someone financially, he would not in turn oblige himself with tithing to the ministry. In fact, tithing is the only time God ever told humans to put them to the test. Interesting...

And not only that...
Paul repeatedly quoted the OT to back up his points to the churches:

1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

1 Timothy 5
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Paul is speaking to Gentiles about Jewish Law, specifically talking about monetary renderings, based on that law. Why? To show God's intent that was behind these laws still carry over to how we treat each other and the Church. At least my quote specifically is about tithes, Paul was reinterpreting literally how oxen are treated and applying it to himslef and the congregation! So how is my quote of Malachi any different than Paul's quotes of Deuteronomy and Leviticus?

 

[marvin]

Tithing, circumsicion, sacrifices, the house of God, the temple of stones....... all gone with the old covenant. Read this quote from the late Charles Gilbert Weston:

A true minister of God's Word must understand that the New supercedes and fulfills all former covenants, annulling the letter of the Mosaic Law and its priesthood, temple, sacrifices, holy days, new moons, civic ordinances, en toto. The New is the total revelation of God's Will and Testament in Christ, forever unchangeable and controls all interpretations of Scripture Old and New, Mt 24:35; Lk 22:19-20; Heb 13:20-21; Ac 3:22-26; Gal 1:8-12; IJn 4:6.

We have a similar debate going on at BiblicalDebates.com. Anybody care to weigh in?

 

[swordman]

Then by your logic, we can chuck out the 10 Commandments too, for that is the very foundation of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant...

This is a rather irrational analysis of what the other individual was saying. What you are applying is more of an ad hoc reactionism than dealing with the issue at hand. He was not at all saying that we should throw out all morality.

the moral code that the Old Law stood for I think we all would agree still stands. No one disputes that. Otherwise, I can kill you with no condemnation from God. The sub-laws that dealt with sacrifices and such do not apply, for Jesus was the sacrifice we base our faith on, we are cleansed by, and are justified. Not burnt turtle doves and ritual cleansings.

So is tithes part of a moral obligation, or one more in a laundry list of do's and don'ts?

Jesus said this:

Mattew 22:35 Jesus repeatedly reinterpreted the Law to show its intent is what is important. Just read the Beatitudes to get that. That said, I believe tithing to your local "institution" is Biblical, not based on the letter of the Law, but motivated by love for God, and your Christian brothers and sisters.

There are some serious flaws in your reasoning, one of which has to do with the fact that you are now upholding a double standard. An honest Bible student who has studied this area of God's word knows that institutional "churches" routinely violate the Law concerning the "tithe". This is not about legalism, this is about the spirit of the Law, as you pointed out above. The "tithe" was originally used for the meeting of needs for those men who had no inheritance in the land, and also to meet the needs of the orphans, widows and strangers in the land, now you are saying that today's system of man-made organizations that most mistakenly call "churches" are now entitled to the "tithe". Attempting to build today's "churches" upon the integrity of God's word is quite an exercise in symantic juggling, to say the least.

And let me say this. My wife and I are employed by our church fulltime. I am a graphic artist, and took a major paycut in order to help with the ministry, because to me, the Gospel getting out was more important than anything. If it were not for our tithe payers, we would be out of a job.

No offense, but graphic artists are not among the New Testament list of those who are entitled to receive of the Gospel. I say that only as an aside. But, hey, if the people in your "church" organization are okay with your getting a salary from what they give, then that is fine by me. I am not one to take away from your freedom or anyone else's freedom, but when I see "ministers" laying upon the people the continued requirement to tithe from God's Law, and yet they refuse to do with the tithe exactly what that same Law demands, then I have a problem with that, and rightfully so.

My pastoir does not "impose" upon people to pay tithes, and I know for a fact quite a few in the congregation do not.

Ah, but there is still the issue of the "first fruits" of the people's giving being utilized contrary to the Biblical example that is set before us in God's written word. That is good that he is not driving the stake of tithing into the people's hearts as is the case with many "pastors" across this country.

What's funny is, these same people always find themselves in a financial rut.. Seems that the "curse" of robbing God still holds true, for although I make half of what I used to, I'm constantly being blessed by strange situations. But I tithe, in spite of my small salary...

You know something, this really proves nothing. There are also many faithful tithers who still get into financial ruts. It happens all the time. I do not consider it to be funny either way, but it simply is a harsh reality that we live with on a daily basis. Giving is not some magical formula that ensures that the giver will never have problems. What we DO have faith in is that God is bigger than all our problems, no matter what we are giving. Also, the fact that you would call it "robbing God" to not give to organized religion such as what you call a "church" that almost always abuses what is given is nothing but emotionally manipulative language that affects only those who are less wary of such dishonest tactics.

I will agree that tithing transcends monetary aspects. Time is valuable too. But I fail to understand why, if God has blessed someone financially, he would not in turn oblige himself with tithing to the ministry. In fact, tithing is the only time God ever told humans to put them to the test. Interesting...

NOT interesting. He tests His people in many ways. Giving to an institution that prides itself on the thought that it is God's ideal for "ministry" is really quite similar to straining out that gnat Jesus spoke of.

Paul is speaking to Gentiles about Jewish Law, specifically talking about monetary renderings, based on that law. Why? To show God's intent that was behind these laws still carry over to how we treat each other and the Church.

This is a gross overstatement. Paul was addressing only ONE of the Gentile churches that had a problem with the idea of the itinerant church planter like Paul himself reaping benefit from the Gospel for his sustenance. You will not find anywhere in the scriptures where the LOCAL elders ceased to be productive citizens in their respective communities in order to become a perpetual burden upon the people. Paul and Peter both considered themselves to be elders in the Church, and Paul was definitely itinerant, which makes it very difficult to make a living apart from receieving of that for which they labor.

At least my quote specifically is about tithes, Paul was reinterpreting literally how oxen are treated and applying it to himslef and the congregation! So how is my quote of Malachi any different than Paul's quotes of Deuteronomy and Leviticus?

Paul was speaking of his right to partake of his labors, you were talking about the requirement to give to an institution that is mostly self-serving, and that does not move around. The difference, therefore, is quite vast. The way in which the local churches functioned in the first century are vastly different than from what most call "churches" today. Protestant "churches" are more roman catholic than they would ever dream of admitting, which is not at all a comparison to the Biblical model.

In Christ Jesus

Dr. Don Dean

 

[onionring]

I've recently had conversations with other Christians who don't pay tithe based on the fact that there is no command for it in the NT. What do you say?

If you are a Christian, pay tithe. The 10 Commandments are in the OT also. Christians (so called) that pay no attention to the OT, deny that God is never changing. Or that the Bible holds within it truth (the never changing words of God).

So all in all, believe the Bible...pay tithe...or don't. People that pick and choose aren't trying to find Truth, and so should believe whatever lie that pleases them.

 

[ReasonableHuman]

God is not an institution. Neither is he man, therefore man-made things such as money are of no relevance to him. By paying tithes one does not support God or the ideas that stem from his being, you are instead financially supporting an inherently fallible organization that is unnecessary in the persistence of christianity.

 

[swordman]

If you are a Christian, pay tithe. The 10 Commandments are in the OT also.

Do you keep the Sabbath on Saturday? If so, how?

Christians (so called) that pay no attention to the OT, deny that God is never changing. Or that the Bible holds within it truth (the never changing words of God).

Do you wear clothing that contains more than one type of thread? What authority do you rely upon to know what Laws you are still bound by, and which you are not?

So all in all, believe the Bible...pay tithe...or don't. People that pick and choose aren't trying to find Truth, and so should believe whatever lie that pleases them.

Well, we better find Paul's phone number so that we can tell him that he completely got it wrong when he declared that each man should give whatsoever he purposes in his heart.

To whom do you say that we should give our tithe? A "church" institution?" Is giving to an institutional "church" synonymous with giving to the Lord? If so, why? There are very few "churches" that do with the tithe exactly what the Law demands. What then?

Dr. Don Dean

 

[swordman]

God is not an institution. Neither is he man, therefore man-made things such as money are of no relevance to him. By paying tithes one does not support God or the ideas that stem from his being, you are instead financially supporting an inherently fallible organization that is unnecessary in the persistence of christianity.

Wow! That was rather course and abrasive, but I certainly cannot argue with it. You have my vote. I will qualify my vote by saying that money can meet needs of those who have genuine needs, but supporting a man-made institution with one's primary giving clearly violates not only God's Law, but also the spirit of giving portrayed within the New Testament.

Good post.....even if you are looking for a fight with some of the rabble-rousers.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

The belief was based on the fact that there IS no command in the NT, therefore the tithe was something based on the old covenant and not to be done today.

Tithing is not a legal requirement for Christians. This doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't give anything, merely that Churches that require financial records to ensure that everyone is giving their 10% are way too legalistic.

As Christians, we recognize that everything we have belongs to God. Because of this, we should use our resources for God's purposes. We can provide for ourselves and our families and even keep our assests. However, if a need arrises, we need to give freely. Note that Acts describes members of the Church selling property in response to specific situations. In order to sell property, they must have still had it.

It is also important to note that while one should help support one's church, not all or even most of your resources have to go through your church. You can give directly to those who need it or give to organizations that have the ability to respond to a need more effectively.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

If you are a Christian, pay tithe. The 10 Commandments are in the OT also. Christians (so called) that pay no attention to the OT, deny that God is never changing. Or that the Bible holds within it truth (the never changing words of God).

So all in all, believe the Bible...pay tithe...or don't. People that pick and choose aren't trying to find Truth, and so should believe whatever lie that pleases them.

God doesn't change, but his covenent does. He made a covenent with Noah, Abraham, and Moses before the final convenent given to us by Jesus. In each new covenent, God goes deeper, giving us a greater understanding of what he wants. In the final covenent, legalism is dead. Instead of strict instructions about how much to give and to where, we are called to give freely to whomever is in need. Instead of the Ten Commandments, we are called to love our enemies, love our neighbor as ourselves. This isn't an easy way out. In fact, the New Covenent requires much more. However, in the new requirements is a freedom to respond in the most appropiate manner, rather than a legally defined response.

 

[ukok]

hmm, how about looking at tithing as a way of giving to the needy as opposed to giving only to the Church. I don't believe that there is any religious law, instruction or command that infers that we must ONLY support our churches. Offering funds, resources, time and energy can be of immense benefit to others and ourselves. As a Christian, i feel that it is my duty as well as my desire, to attempt to enrich the lives of others in some small way. If that means handing my cash over at Church one week and the next week, handing it over to those in strife 5 thousand miles away, so be it.

Even if we do no more than eat today and have shelter today, it will still be more than some have had today.