To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

GodismySalvation · Dec 9, 2012

GaryArnold said:
For every one tither who testifies about all the blessings they get because they tithe there are thousands who have tithed all their life who still struggle from paycheck to paycheck. I am a Money and Finance Minister. I see this all the time.

Mandatory tithing was replaced by grace giving, not grace tithing.

You believe 10% is such a wonderful number. Fact is, no number is more wonderful than another. You seem all wrapped up in emotions rather than truth.

If 10% is right for you, fine. For me, it has to be 20% or 30% or more. I wouldn't feel right giving a measly 10% of my income. But that is me. I don't try to force or recommend others to give what I give.

God is not concerned with how much ones gives. God is concerned with how much one keeps for themselves.

We are called to help one another, NOT an organized corporation doing business and disguised as a church. WE are the Church. If one attends church services, they should feel obligated to help pay the bills. But thinking that is giving to God is not scriptural.

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Just because the law ended doesn't mean you can take what God said belonged to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, and you now come along and give it to the organization doing business as a church. The law ended. You don't have to tithe. But if you DO tithe, shouldn't you do it the way God prescribed?

It is my opinion that those who claim to tithe today are insulting God. God defined His tithe as a tenth from HIS increase, not man's income.

I'm not sure what more to say other than what I did. It seems like you are missing the point and reading something different into what I said and I don't know how to help you see. It's almost like you can't see grace tithing. The word tithe seems to be a stumbling block to you and you misread what's being said. I went to your website and checked out some of the other sites you posted on. People can see the good points you make but you don't seem to see the good points they make.Your ministry seems to be based on proving the tithe ceased rather than allowing for the law tithe to have been replace by the grace tithe. Maybe that means you won't be able to see the points where you are wrong and others are right. What would happen to your ministry if you realized law has been replaced by grace AND law tithe has been replaced by grace tithe? I really see how similar your ideas are to the grace tithers yet you oppose them dogmatically. If you could join forces with the grace tithers you could help a lot of people get free from leagalist fear tithing. If you remain opposed to grace tithing you are alienating all the people that see that tithing hasn't ceased.

GaryArnold · Dec 9, 2012

GodismySalvation said:
Your ministry seems to be based on proving the tithe ceased rather than allowing for the law tithe to have been replace by the grace tithe.

The scriptures say NOTHING about grace tithing. Man made that up.

Don't you find it odd that according to documented history, NO Christian Church ever taught anyone to tithe on their income until 1870? I haven't found any theologian who uses the term "grace tithing."

Pastors know there is no such thing as grace tithing. Pastors know that tithing ended at the cross if they have studied the scriptures. Future Baptist pastors are now being taught at Liberty University (Baptist) that there is no place in the Christian Church for tithing. More and more people are leaving the organized church because of this false teaching. It has got to stop before the Protestant Church goes through a reformation like the Catholic Church did.

Truth needs to be taught, not man-made doctrines. All it takes is a little research to see how this whole man-made doctrine got started.

GodismySalvation · Dec 9, 2012

GaryArnold said:
The scriptures say NOTHING about grace tithing. Man made that up.

Don't you find it odd that according to documented history, NO Christian Church ever taught anyone to tithe on their income until 1870? I haven't found any theologian who uses the term "grace tithing."

Pastors know there is no such thing as grace tithing. Pastors know that tithing ended at the cross if they have studied the scriptures. Future Baptist pastors are now being taught at Liberty University (Baptist) that there is no place in the Christian Church for tithing. More and more people are leaving the organized church because of this false teaching. It has got to stop before the Protestant Church goes through a reformation like the Catholic Church did.

Truth needs to be taught, not man-made doctrines. All it takes is a little research to see how this whole man-made doctrine got started.

Tithing didn't cease it changed what was done under the law is now done under grace. Still semantics. If the bible disagrees with church history or modern day seminaries and pastors I will side with the bible. I learned a lot from you and you make a lot of good points but I can see now for myself the bible proves tithing did not cease.

GaryArnold · Dec 9, 2012

GodismySalvation said:
Tithing didn't cease it changed what was done under the law is now done under grace. Still semantics. If the bible disagrees with church history or modern day seminaries and pastors I will side with the bible. I learned a lot from you and you make a lot of good points but I can see now for myself the bible proves tithing did not cease.

That's because you error in your interpretation of Hebrews 7. You won't find any respected version of the Bible to say the "he" is referring to Jesus. They either say "he" or they actually say Melchizedec. You also won't find any respected Bible Commentary that says the "he" is Jesus. They also say it refers to Melchizedec. You are taking the one verse totally out of context. Follow through from verse 1.

Faulty · Dec 9, 2012

Here are a couple interviews with Russell Kelly, a man who earned his doctorate doing his thesis on tithing. The first is an interview from just a couple days ago, The second was in March, but a bit more comprehensive in the matter.

Tithing? Is it for today? the Real Truth with Russell Kelly 12/08 by Susan Puzio | Blog Talk Radio

Tithing-Must you PAY God? Blessings For Sale? 03/17 by Susan Puzio | Blog Talk Radio

FoundInGrace · Dec 10, 2012

GaryArnold said:
If YOU want to choose 10% as a useful guideline for yourself, that is fine. However, the Biblical tithe averaged 20% over a 7-year period, NOT 10%.
Year 1 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 1 - 10% for the festivals = 20% during Year 1
Year 2 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 2 - 10% for the festivals = 20% during Year 2
Year 3 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 3 - 10% for the festivals
Year 3 - 10% for the poor = 30% during Year 3
Year 4 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 4 - 10% for the festivals = 20% during Year 4
Year 5 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 5 - 10% for the festivals = 20% during Year 5
Year 6 - 10% to the priesthood
Year 6 - 10% for the festivals
Year 6 - 10% for the poor = 30% during Year 6
Year 7 - No tithing. Sabbath rest for land.

So IF you choose 10%, fine. But that is NOT what the Bible teaches about tithing, so don't think you are using some Biblical guideline. You are using your own guideline, which is fine. Treat it as such.

ok, sorry i offended you

Messy · Dec 10, 2012

GodismySalvation said:
I really see how similar your ideas are to the grace tithers yet you oppose them dogmatically. If you could join forces with the grace tithers you could help a lot of people get free from leagalist fear tithing.

He already helped me get free from condemnation. The outcome is similar. Both give more than 10%. But I've got problems with the 'you have to' teaching. It's not that now I'm beginning to get convinced it's not Biblical, that I will give less. Of course people can use this teaching as an excuse to give almost nothing, while they can, but that's a problem with their own heart and has got nothing to do with this teaching. Someone who could give 50 % could also misuse the tithe preaching to only give 10 %. I don't tithe correct like it's taught, but because I give, the Lord can bless me. And He can bless the grace tithers, which doesn't prove they have the right doctrine.

Messy · Dec 10, 2012

GaryArnold said:
For every one tither who testifies about all the blessings they get because they tithe there are thousands who have tithed all their life who still struggle from paycheck to paycheck. I am a Money and Finance Minister. I see this all the time.

Mandatory tithing was replaced by grace giving, not grace tithing.

You believe 10% is such a wonderful number. Fact is, no number is more wonderful than another. You seem all wrapped up in emotions rather than truth.

If 10% is right for you, fine. For me, it has to be 20% or 30% or more. I wouldn't feel right giving a measly 10% of my income. But that is me. I don't try to force or recommend others to give what I give.

God is not concerned with how much ones gives. God is concerned with how much one keeps for themselves.

We are called to help one another, NOT an organized corporation doing business and disguised as a church. WE are the Church. If one attends church services, they should feel obligated to help pay the bills. But thinking that is giving to God is not scriptural.

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Just because the law ended doesn't mean you can take what God said belonged to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, and you now come along and give it to the organization doing business as a church. The law ended. You don't have to tithe. But if you DO tithe, shouldn't you do it the way God prescribed?

It is my opinion that those who claim to tithe today are insulting God. God defined His tithe as a tenth from HIS increase, not man's income.

This I do understand if you look at pastors in the USA with an income of 200.000 a year, out of tithing, also from poor people. But there are also pastors with small churches and no income, called by God, who really give good preaching and work for the church at least 40 hours a week and help the people and visit their house if they're in need and pray for them a lot. If such a pastor used let's say, if there's enough, 2000 a month for living, not demanding tithes and helping the poor in his congregation, why shouldn't he get any money? You don't say to the church members they can't get an income and have to live by faith, why should a pastor have to when his people have enough and just don't want to give to him? I wonder if you have also seen pastors who struggle from paycheck to paycheck.

Messy · Dec 10, 2012

Frogster said:
Acts 18:3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade

1 Cor 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;

1 Cor 9:6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?

1 Cor 9:12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldnt we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Dont you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

The problem with tithe preaching is that it's forced to do. People should always give freely. I also can't understand 'grace tithing' , because of Maleachi: if you don't do it, you get cursed and the heavens are closed. The heavens were not closed, Paul had no place left to preach, it was preached everywhere, there was revival, even if they didn't want to give. But he didn't force them to.

WordofHisPower · Dec 10, 2012

Messy said:
1 Cor 9:12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

The problem with tithe preaching is that it's forced to do. People should always give freely. I also can't understand 'grace tithing' , because of Maleachi: if you don't do it, you get cursed and the heavens are closed. The heavens were not closed, Paul had no place left to preach, it was preached everywhere, there was revival, even if they didn't want to give. But he didn't force them to.

Tithing by grace is the same as obeying the 10 commandments or the other OT commandments by grace.

Starting at Deuteronomy 28:15, is a list of the curses that'll come upon you, when you break any of God's commandments (lying, stealing, swearing, coveting, murder, adultery)

Christ said thinking of sinning in your heart is equal to breaking a commandment. Matthew 5:28

James 2:10 says if you break even one commandment you're guilty of breaking them all.

The law's done away with but does it mean we can now steal, lie, swear, covet, or disobey the other instructions of God? No. Romans 6:1-23

In the NT if you sin by doing something wrong (like lying), or not doing something right (like tithing), there's no curse for you because Christ became a curse for us. Galatians 3:13-14

Does it mean you can do what ever you please because there's no curse for disobedience? No. Ephesians 5:10, Romans 6:1-23

Obedience now comes by faith. Romans 1:5 (NIV), Romans 16:26 (NIV)

Grace and faith are how we do everything now. Romans 4:16, Romans 5:1-2, Ephesians 2:8

God doesn't force us to do the right thing, and we shouldn't force others either. All we can do is show each other from scripture what the right thing is, and leave it between them and God (this includes tithing).

Rubiks · Dec 10, 2012

Everyone should give 10%, unless if you're poor

WordofHisPower · Dec 10, 2012

Rubiks said:
Everyone should give 10%, unless if you're poor

I wasn't poor when I first started tithing, but my bills were too high for my income. I got a miracle from God to be able to tithe.

A lady on this thread said her income was only $300 a month but tithing $30 was not a problem. I'd consider her to be poor.

Messy · Dec 10, 2012

GaryArnold said:
1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Using the above principles, the New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

Thanks, that's a good one. I'll tell my father. After praying for years for his salvation, finally (he's 77) he wanted to go to church with my mom. Then after a few weeks he didn't want to go anymore. They taught on tithing to the local church. He isn't a believer and gives to me and his grandkids. Never had problems with my mother tithing when she went to our church. This pastor's got a better income than he and a bigger house (yes, that's the way he thinks). Can't they think about searching nonbelievers in their preaching? His brother lives in the States, was almost converted when he was in his 20's and stopped going to church because of the extreme preaching on money.

probinson · Dec 10, 2012

GaryArnold said:
And just what kind of fruit do you call a pastor living better than those he is asking money from? The Biblical tithe was partially used to feed the poor. The pastor asks the poor to give to him. Would you call that fruit pretty rotten? It goes both ways.

I'd say it depends.

Maybe y'all have hoarding, greedy pastors who are just looking to get rich and that's why you ask questions like this. This has not been my experience. I've been blessed by a pastor who sacrifices and gives. He's not really interested in what he can get for himself; he's interested in being blessed to be a blessing.

I asked this earlier, but do you think that poor people should ever give anything? Or should they be so concerned with themselves and their own well-being that they hang on to everything they have?

probinson · Dec 10, 2012

Frogster said:
it doesn't have to be the usual mansion preacher, BMW driver. What about a local pastor, should he take from those earning less, who may have family struggles, or old people on a fixed income? Do I raise a fair point?

No Pinetree, you don't ever raise a fair point. Given that you won't even be honest with us about your identity for reasons you and I both know are true, your points are never "fair".

Frogster said:
Where is that pastors heart? How does he go home to a comfy home, at the expense of the person in debt, or struggling along, all while he says .."praise the Lord, be blessed!", on Sunday when he sees him?

Pinetree, all you talk about in debates like this are "comfy homes", people "earning less", "bigger cars".... me, me, me, me, me... "What about my car?" "What about my house?" "Why should he make more money than me?" That's what your posts SCREAM. And then you want us to believe that you don't care about material things, and it's those "greedy pastors" that have the issue. Sure. Hey by the way, I've got some nice oceanfront property in Arizona for you. You'll love it there.

As I've said clearly all throughout the thread, EVERY Christian (note to Pinetree: that includes pastors and leaders who are Christian) should be cheerful and generous in their giving. I am far less concerned with what someone has, because I honestly don't care how big someone's house is, or what kind of car they drive, or what label they have on their clothing. I'm much more interested in seeing people who have an attitude and heart for cheerful, generous giving.

Frogster · Dec 10, 2012

Messy said:
1 Cor 9:12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

The problem with tithe preaching is that it's forced to do. People should always give freely. I also can't understand 'grace tithing' , because of Maleachi: if you don't do it, you get cursed and the heavens are closed. The heavens were not closed, Paul had no place left to preach, it was preached everywhere, there was revival, even if they didn't want to give. But he didn't force them to.

Good thoughts. I understand, it's great to give to the poor, and if people want to support a guy like Paul, who worked first, and worked so hard for us in doing so. The interesting thind also about chapter 9 is that paul said he did not charge, and put no obstacle in front of the gospel, as he continued on there.

Interesting wordage, charge, and obstacle, both negative words, as he reminded those very readers, he and barnabas worked in 4:12, and 9:6.

Paul took the high ground in 1 Cor 9 as an example.

Yeah, when the use mal 3 it's a real contortion there.

Frogster · Dec 10, 2012

probinson said:
No Pinetree, you don't ever raise a fair point. Given that you won't even be honest with us about your identity for reasons you and I both know are true, your points are never "fair".

Pinetree, all you talk about in debates like this are "comfy homes", people "earning less", "bigger cars".... me, me, me, me, me... "What about my car?" "What about my house?" "Why should he make more money than me?" That's what your posts SCREAM. And then you want us to believe that you don't care about material things, and it's those "greedy pastors" that have the issue. Sure. Hey by the way, I've got some nice oceanfront property in Arizona for you. You'll love it there.

As I've said clearly all throughout the thread, EVERY Christian (note to Pinetree: that includes pastors and leaders who are Christian) should be cheerful and generous in their giving. I am far less concerned with what someone has, because I honestly don't care how big someone's house is, or what kind of car they drive, or what label they have on their clothing. I'm much more interested in seeing people who have an attitude and heart for cheerful, generous giving.

lol! u r totally wrong, it's not about me, it's about the greedy pastors the live in mansions, taking from poor people, even in local churches, the pastor can be earning 3-4 times more, than the old couple on a fixed income does, or a family guy raising kids does, that's totally wrong, and and you ca't refute all the text i posted about it!

None of this has anything to do with me..I am not in that system!

I am making a scriptural objective analysis here, and u can't refute that.

And I am also correct, on tithe threads, that pastor and his heart or actions are NEVER called to the carpet, only the sheep, and are they "cheerful"?

Who can be cheerful under the tax code of the church!

probinson · Dec 10, 2012

mjere said:
I jumped in mid your conversation with another poster, but I was shocked at how volatile people have become over some of the comments. I thought that should be addressed. I guess that's why I drew a line in the post, because I didn't want you to think I was entirely directing my comments towards you, but your post hit most of the bullets points I wanted to address. Confusing, my apologies. But I don't really care to go through he said, she said. It's ridiculous really.

No problem. Sometimes these multifaceted threads can get confusing. No harm done.

mjere said:
In response to a "pastor driving a nicer car" conversation, I'd look no further than bitter, envying and pride... yes, there's some issues here. A person who can't rejoice when they see other believer (who cares what their calling in life is?) prosper, and succeed, doesn't have a tithing problem. They are simply not drawing on who they are in Christ all together. I would recommend that person stop harping on the tithe and learn how to receive from God freely, because when God gives, it humbles you; and at times it's almost embarrassing.

Brilliantly stated! I agree with this paragraph 100%

mjere said:
OTOH, a person who criticizes a person not giving enough, or in regular proportions, or not having that "true" spirit of giving, also has never received for themselves. When a person looks at themselves in comparison to Christ, they can minister mercy and love inspite of where they think others have fallen short. God's kind of love flows out of them and they can see the good.

I agree with this as well, but I think it's a little more complex than that.

For example, I disagree with my pastor on tithing; he believes it is a requirement, I do not. The reason, however, is not based on envy or covetousness. I know for a fact that my pastor lives what he preaches, and he honestly and truly believes that the tithe is a requirement by God, which is why he teaches that way. However, I know his heart, and even though we disagree on this issue, I'm still quite proud to call him my pastor and give freely of my time, my finances and my life to my church. You hit on it a little further down this post; I am fed there, and we are able to look past our differences and still call each other family.

mjere said:
If we haven't tapped into our own gifts and callings, we shouldn't be criticizing someone who's trying and not doing it as perfectly as we would have hoped. "Against everything, and standing for nothing" is not a ministry.

Countless people think it is though. This section of CF is full of people who are against everything. I have no idea why they even come here. But that's a discussion for another thread.

mjere said:
But indirectly, what's been said about fancy pastors does have alot of truth. If the body of Christ was systematically giving where they are fed, and not where they are condemned and pressure, some of these wolves in sheep's clothing would have been starved out a long time.

That's probably true. A lot of people feel obligated, and aren't the least bit cheerful in their giving. My advice to people who are under this constant pressure to give would be to stop whining and moaning about it and go someplace where you can be fed.

mjere said:
I don't care if it's a tithe or an offering. Those who preach the gospel should live by the gospel, and I can't safely say the vast majority of churches are actually feeding the Body. Forget the fact that most churches are not teaching the gospel. (They may be presenting facts about Christ and spiritual truths.) Just as "BeforeThereWas" was saying above, the church should be meeting alot of the social needs, that the government has stepped in and started doing.

Absolutely agree. If a church stays within the 4 walls and never does anything to help people in need in the community, it is failing.

mjere said:
It would do the critics well to know that God is not to be mocked. But a pastor driving a nice car, who pulls a devotional out every Sunday to minister, and is preaching what he learned at seminary, instead of the revealed Word, oughta take heed as well.

Yep. That was my point in some earlier posts; there is not a great divide between pastors and "laypeople" in giving. Everyone should give cheerfully, generously, as they determine in their heart and as the Spirit of God leads them.

mjere said:
Galatians 6:7. A believer who's claiming, "What's the difference where I sow, just as long as I'm sowing," is not following scripture either. You give where you're fed; and we should be aware that when we give, we take part in other people's works- good and bad. "You reap what you sow. "

I like your balanced approach to this topic. It's very refreshing to hear. Thank you.

Frogster · Dec 10, 2012

probinson said:
I'd say it depends.

Maybe y'all have hoarding, greedy pastors who are just looking to get rich and that's why you ask questions like this. This has not been my experience. I've been blessed by a pastor who sacrifices and gives. He's not really interested in what he can get for himself; he's interested in being blessed to be a blessing.

I asked this earlier, but do you think that poor people should ever give anything? Or should they be so concerned with themselves and their own well-being that they hang on to everything they have?

when mega mansion preachers, live in those homes, and drive BMW's, that's not greed? And as they use text to demand "giving or sowing", making no exemptions for the poor, as they promise them the world, saying give even if you don't have, u don't have a problem with that?

probinson · Dec 10, 2012

Frogster said:
lol! u r totally wrong, it's not about me, it's about the greedy pastors the live in mansions,

Mansions? MANSIONS? MANSIONS??!!

You're one funny dude, Pinetree. I've never seen anyone who cares quite so much about other people's stuff.

To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

Should Christians tithe?

Yes, we should give 10%.

No, we should give whatever the Lord Places upon our hearts.

No, we should not give anything to the church.

Other (please explain)

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