To Tithe or not to Tithe, That is the question?

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I'm not sure if you are to give the whole tithe to the widows and orphans or if they are to join you in it every three years. I tend to think the last tithe of the year is for the widows, orphans and you can't forget the Levite.

22“You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.
23And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.
24But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you,
25then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses.
26And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
27You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
28“At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates.
29And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

This is from the law. Obviously someone not under law, freed from the law and the curse of the law by the greatest gift anyone ever gave anyone, the Lord Jesus Christ, would be giving far more than 10% to the local church and be rejoicing far more than the people under the law.
 
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ydouxist

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Are you asking if we are fulfilling our requirements by tithing or are you saying we are?

This story pretty much sums up what I'm saying.

A nondenominational church that meets in a junior high started a "giving epidemic" Sunday that led to about $750,000 in cash and goods being given away during the worship service.
Brandon Hawk admits his route to becoming senior pastor of Kingdom Life Fellowship in Clyde has been unusual. Perhaps it should be expected that a sermon about giving should be unusual as well.
"We felt God was calling us to give," said Hawk, a retired professional tennis player. And give the church did.
The church had accumulated a nest egg of about $320,000 over its annual budget of $338,000. That money was given away Sunday to church members who had financial need.
But that's not all.
People handed their tithes to other people who had needs. Cars were given; even a business was handed over.
"We gave over our budget," said Hawk. "It was the single greatest moment by far I've ever experienced in church. We want to start a giving epidemic."
On Sunday, people who had dire needs, ranging from keeping their homes to putting food on the table, were asked to come forward. Then people who had pressing needs were asked to come forward, and instead of collecting tithes from the members, those people were asked to give their tithe to a person in need.
No questions were asked, and no judgments made as money was given to pay off credit cards and college loans.
"We can't make that judgment," said Hawk. "In Acts, there's the passage that no one lacked."
Finally, about $20,000 was distributed to people just to do something enjoyable.
"If you had never gone to Dillard's and bought a red dress, go do it," said Hawk. "Go to a nice restaurant and leave a big tip. God not only takes care of our needs but also our desires. We really wanted to touch on God's goodness."
Hawk admits that he doesn't know how much was actually given because the process was ongoing. He thinks a conservative estimate is $750,000. And this from a congregation of a little more than 300 and mostly blue-collar folks.
"I know this: You can't outgive God," Hawk said.
He said Sunday's experience was a natural extension of what has been preached.
"We feel called to transform our city, and you do that by transforming people," he said. "We want to transform this city into one God would be proud, one that's free of mass addictions and poverty. We say: 'Give, pray, love.' Give means to meet the physical needs. Pray meets the spiritual needs, and love meets the emotional needs. A lady may need a roof on her house, but she may also have a broken heart. You have to try to meet both needs. How can we ask our members to give sacrificially if corporately we're not willing to give sacrificially?"
Hawk repeatedly said the service was not held to boost membership or to grab headlines.
"This is for the advancement of God," he said. "God's love changed my life. This is to transform our city. I'm passionate about Clyde, America."
In case any cynic is wondering, the plan is to do this again.
"We're hoping this becomes the norm," Hawk said.

$750K given away at Clyde church » Abilene Reporter News
 
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Svt4Him

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You have summed this up so well.

Just give Jesus what you think He is worth.

But I tend to think this is a way to manipulate people. I don't think you mean to do it, but the Biblical examples of giving were never based on what God was worth, it was based on need (widows and orphans), what God place on your heart, what you felt, what you had and who around you you could help. To say you must give based on what you think Jesus is worth infers those who give less have less of a view of Jesus. Follow God, give what He puts on your heart, and if God tells you to not give anything to the 'church' but take and bless your family, am I really in a place where I can say that is thinking less of Jesus?
 
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Svt4Him

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This is from the law. Obviously someone not under law, freed from the law and the curse of the law by the greatest gift anyone ever gave anyone, the Lord Jesus Christ, would be giving far more than 10% to the local church and be rejoicing far more than the people under the law.


So you are saying those who are no longer under the law should fulfill the law better? Do we apply that to circumcision? Sacrifices? And again I ask, do we tithe like in the OT just with more joy? So I bring my sheep to the, yes, the temple (no, not a temple or a church, it has to be to the temple, collected by the tribe of Levi) and eat it with my family? If we are going to again bind people under the law, even if we call it grace, we should at least understand the law we are placing them under.
 
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Pat Colby

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So you are saying those who are no longer under the law should fulfill the law better? Do we apply that to circumcision? Sacrifices? And again I ask, do we tithe like in the OT just with more joy? So I bring my sheep to the, yes, the temple (no, not a temple or a church, it has to be to the temple, collected by the tribe of Levi) and eat it with my family? If we are going to again bind people under the law, even if we call it grace, we should at least understand the law we are placing them under.
Exactly.Are we also saying to listen to the food ordinances,and now we can't eat pork? The most damage comes from the "curse" from Malachi 3,that pro tithers use to make people give out of fear.Again,why do they just raise the curse for that one levitical law,but not the others?
 
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Pat Colby

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I'm saying if you love your neighbor as yourself giving isn't even an issue forget the 10%. Perfect love HAS to give. For God so loved the world He GAVE.
Hello.I think you might be confusing giving,and obligation.Obligation is what comes from the tithe teachers,who have turned it into law,written or non written.Either by ostrasized,or by actual expulsion from the church.

And why is it,the "giving" is always to go to the asker of the money,instead of the poor and needy,like we see in Acts? Thanks,Pat.
 
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hislegacy

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And why is it,the "giving" is always to go to the asker of the money,instead of the poor and needy,like we see in Acts? Thanks,Pat.

The vast majority of the "askers" of the money use that money to feed the poor, cloth the homless, send missionaries and support families. Along with salaries for their staff and the care of the facilities they use.

If you are experiencing a case of the minister taking the funds for himself. RUN, don't walk away.

Be as wise as the founder of the Word of Faith - he had some great insight.
 
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Pat Colby

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The irony is that all the poor in churches,are forced to tithe to all the other poor,and to the teachers salary,who may live in a better situation,than the poor tither.Is that fair?They should just teach what Paul did,and not let anyone be burdened,and those who wish to give,may do so.It is irresponsible to not teach the whole of giving.
 
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probinson

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The irony is that all the poor in churches,are forced to tithe to all the other poor,and to the teachers salary,who may live in a better situation,than the poor tither.Is that fair?They should just teach what Paul did,and not let anyone be burdened,and those who wish to give,may do so.It is irresponsible to not teach the whole of giving.

Me-ness; That's what you called it on the other thread.

"The pastor lives better than ME."

"The pastor is in a better situation than ME."

"It's not fair to ME."

Me-ness gone to seed.

:cool:
 
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Merlin

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This subject was brought up in another thread. So let's discuss this, please.
Are Christians obligated to tithe?

I say no. But I am not offended by it. It is an area where people disagree.


I have been asked to clarify how I am defining tithe.

By tithe I mean giving 10% of our income because the bible commands it. I figure the idea of gving is a seperate issue. Of course we should give. But I'm speaking of specifically giving 10% because we believe that is what the bible teaches us to do.
I say no.
Laws to follow Acts 15:

In the early church, discussion of which laws to follow came up

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and
said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some
time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message
of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,
just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that
neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No!
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

The consensus was:

Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond
the following requirements:
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
 
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Pat Colby

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Me-ness; That's what you called it on the other thread.

"The pastor lives better than ME."

"The pastor is in a better situation than ME."

"It's not fair to ME."

Me-ness gone to seed.

:cool:
I was not talking about me.Why are you getting personal?.Sorry,but you are.Thanks,Pat.
 
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Pat Colby

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I say no.
Laws to follow Acts 15:

In the early church, discussion of which laws to follow came up

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and
said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some
time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message
of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,
just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that
neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No!
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

The consensus was:

Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond
the following requirements:
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
Exactly, a yoke of bondage. It's an ordinance of the OC. Those were nailed to the cross. Anyone who does a simple study will see how tithing is not for NT believers. Paul spoke of giving as you can afford. He never mentioned tithing. Try talking to pastors about this, it makes them fly into a rage.
 
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probinson

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I was not talking about me.

Any way you slice it, you are encouraging people to say things like, "Why does the pastor live better than ME?" "It's not fair to ME." "What about ME?"

Sorry, but you are.

Thanks,
-Pete

:cool:
 
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probinson

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Paul spoke of giving as you can afford.

When did Paul ever talk about "giving as you can afford"?

Here's what he actually said;
2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
IOW, Paul is saying our giving should be led by God, by what we "decide in our heart", not based upon what we think we can "afford".

:cool:
 
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Svt4Him

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The vast majority of the "askers" of the money use that money to feed the poor, cloth the homless, send missionaries and support families. Along with salaries for their staff and the care of the facilities they use.

As a professional accountant who has worked in church and NFP as well as charities for many many years, I'd beg to differ with you that the vast majority goes to where it's suppose to, in a traditional church setting. But if your church does that, great. But why don't we let the people be the church and do that themselves, and love their neighbour while they're at it.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've seen enough charitable returns to know it's not the rule. But if this was the only reason to give, then we can also say it's OK to 'tithe' to something like the Red Cross, Salvation Army or the likes, as it is also going to a good cause?
 
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JEBrady

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When did Paul ever talk about "giving as you can afford"?

Here's what he actually said;
2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
IOW, Paul is saying our giving should be led by God, by what we "decide in our heart", not based upon what we think we can "afford".

:cool:


He does say that. Here's the reference:

2 Co 8
11 but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. 12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. 15 As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”
 
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probinson

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He does say that. Here's the reference:

2 Co 8
11 but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. 12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. 15 As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”

Hmmm.

I don't think that scripture is saying give what you can "afford". It's saying that you're not expected to give what you don't have. IOW, I shouldn't be expected to give a million dollars, because I don't have a million dollars.

When someone says "give what you can afford", that could mean a lot of different things to different people in different situations. For example, if I have $30, and I decide I want to take advantage of the $10 pizza at Pizza Hut, does that mean that I can only "afford" to give $20, or am I really able to "afford" $30?

My point was, Paul is talking about determining in your heart what you are going to give, and then giving it cheerfully. Not sitting there saying "Why does the pastor have a nicer house than ME?" as you give begrudgingly.

:cool:
 
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psalms 91

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After being around this debate many times in here I will say that you should but if not dont worry about it as the scriptures that apply to tithing and blessings do not apply to you and if you would tithe begrudgingly then it is of no use. God owns everything so He is able to get by without our help but He sure likes to see our appreciation of what He has done for us.
 
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JEBrady

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Hmmm.

I don't think that scripture is saying give what you can "afford". It's saying that you're not expected to give what you don't have. IOW, I shouldn't be expected to give a million dollars, because I don't have a million dollars.

When someone says "give what you can afford", that could mean a lot of different things to different people in different situations. For example, if I have $30, and I decide I want to take advantage of the $10 pizza at Pizza Hut, does that mean that I can only "afford" to give $20, or am I really able to "afford" $30?

My point was, Paul is talking about determining in your heart what you are going to give, and then giving it cheerfully. Not sitting there saying "Why does the pastor have a nicer house than ME?" as you give begrudgingly.

:cool:

I think what this passage says is pretty clear. It's obvious that it doesn't mean to give something you don't actually possess- such as give a million dollars when you don't own a million dollars. It very clearly says not to give what you can't afford to give. The word afford means, "to manage to bear without serious detriment", which is exactly what is being said in this passage. You don't give to the point where now you yourself have a financial burden.

Your point about giving grudgingly is a different principle. What I can afford to give is based on what I have, not on what someone else has. There is, however, something to be said about the purpose of the giving in the specific biblical case. I wouldn't give someone with a million-dollar house anything because he doesn't have a financial need. The giving in the biblical passage was to meet a lack on the part of other saints who had fallen on hard times. Those with a lot don't have too much and those with little don't have too little because the more wealthy share with the ones who need. It wouldn't make sense to give to the point where now I don't have enough to get by. Then I would need for someone to give to me!
 
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