To Tithe or not to Tithe, That is the question?

[Yitzchak]

Giving is one the five love languages talked about in the famous book on that subject. It does not have to be tithing though.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Actually there were many tithes in OT times not just the 10% but that is another story.
Jesus seems to tie it with Love for our enemies not support of the church as such.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#comm/30
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/30

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/31

Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/32

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/33

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/34

Luk 6:34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/35

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/36

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/37

Luk 6:37¶Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=6&t=KJV#dict/38

Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

[Svt4Him]

And to some people Tithing is anything BUT a law. And our views are very different because of that.

Fair enough, and I am glad for this. But to some, circumcision is anything but a law.When others say you must do it, it does then become a law, but even if I do it out of love, it was still a law. And if we use circumcision, can we say that even though it was a law, I will change it to make it you can simply cut your nails, then I've become circumscribed every time I cut my nails. Now you don't need to be actually circumscribed, but if you don't cut your nails twice a week you are displeasing God because you are so greedy. This is how the law of tithing has been so twisted to now mean what it does is beyond me. But it was still a law, and the law was clear on how it was received and given.

But when someone says, and it's coincidentally often from pastors, that you have to tithe (as even seen in this thread) then it does in fact become a law. And when people say the minimum you should give is a tithe, it again becomes a law. Our views differ? Well, the OT tithe was a law and the law has passed away. Not only that, but the OT tithe was only applicable to certain people and was actually eaten by those who brought it. The OT law of tithing never involved giving money to the church. Do we disagree yet? Now you are not required to give any set amount apart from what's in your heart to anyone who God puts on your heart. Still disagreeing?

Don't be stingy. Don't store for yourself earthly treasures. But don't give to a man-made tradition while your family is hungry. Don't make others wait to be paid (go into debt) while you tithe to the church, there is no excuse for this. But don't be irresponsible, otherwise you have the groundwork for what happened with the mortgage crisis. If you want to give to the church, by all means do. If you believe you are the church and you want to have a BBQ to reach out and love you neighbour, by all means do. I'd bet though we'd feel too guilty to do that.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I'll give the example of my own case.

My Church growing up taught that tithing was a requirement. At the same time we weren't particularly concerned with money. We never took an offering, and we almost never taught on tithing or giving. There was a simply an offering box in back and every once in a great while, like maybe once a year or something, there would be a sermon about tithing.

I never really thought much about it at all, until I saw some conversations on it, and eventually came to the conclusion that tithing was not a requirement in the sense that you have to give a minimum of 10% of your income.

In my current church its kind of a unique situation because its a nursing home/retirement community chapel and thus the pastor's salary and the building expenses are paid by the nursing home/retirement community.

The money thats given in offerings there goes to extra things here and there, and some charity works etc.
As a result I don't give to that chapel because I don't really feel its needed there.

However, I also realize that part of this is my nature of simply wanting to keep my money. I recognize a problem that I don't give enough to help others etc. I don't do enough.

And when I say "enough" I don't mean there is some legal criterion I have to meet, but rather I know in my spirit I can and should do more.

So, I try to always be willing to give whenever I see a need that I can help meet. I try to give to local charities when I see them collecting etc. I believe my first responsability in that regard is to needs in the Church, and then to my local community.

The reality is I know I should give more than I do, both of my time and my money. I say "should" because it is good for me spiritually to do so. It is part of what God desires of me.. not money, but a giving heart, generosity and charity.

There is definetly something wrong with Christianity that doesn't teach generosity and charity.

In fact, the word charity is a good case study in and of itself. The word charity originally meant love. Biblically love was so synonymous with action to help people that charity eventually came to mean working or giving to help those in need.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Charity = Love Very good point Simon. gg

 

[Svt4Him]

I'll give the example of my own case.

My Church growing up taught that tithing was a requirement. At the same time we weren't particularly concerned with money. We never took an offering, and we almost never taught on tithing or giving. There was a simply an offering box in back and every once in a great while, like maybe once a year or something, there would be a sermon about tithing.

I never really thought much about it at all, until I saw some conversations on it, and eventually came to the conclusion that tithing was not a requirement in the sense that you have to give a minimum of 10% of your income.

In my current church its kind of a unique situation because its a nursing home/retirement community chapel and thus the pastor's salary and the building expenses are paid by the nursing home/retirement community.

The money thats given in offerings there goes to extra things here and there, and some charity works etc.
As a result I don't give to that chapel because I don't really feel its needed there.

However, I also realize that part of this is my nature of simply wanting to keep my money. I recognize a problem that I don't give enough to help others etc. I don't do enough.

And when I say "enough" I don't mean there is some legal criterion I have to meet, but rather I know in my spirit I can and should do more.

So, I try to always be willing to give whenever I see a need that I can help meet. I try to give to local charities when I see them collecting etc. I believe my first responsability in that regard is to needs in the Church, and then to my local community.

The reality is I know I should give more than I do, both of my time and my money. I say "should" because it is good for me spiritually to do so. It is part of what God desires of me.. not money, but a giving heart, generosity and charity.

There is definetly something wrong with Christianity that doesn't teach generosity and charity.

In fact, the word charity is a good case study in and of itself. The word charity originally meant love. Biblically love was so synonymous with action to help people that charity eventually came to mean working or giving to help those in need.

This is true. Jesus said if the eye is dark the whole body is dark which means if you are greedy you will suffer.

But when the church teaches on tithing, it should teach on the Biblical examples and go deep. Abraham or Abram didn't tithe like we do today. Nor are not robbing God through your tithes and offerings, a simple study of this book will show who it's to and what they are doing. Not only that, but the whole robbing God has to make it that the tithe is money and your food is spiritual...but only spiritual from a pastor.

Give, and it will be given back to you. Give to take care of your family because one who doesn't is worse than an unbeliever. Give to those you meet who bless you, or the Melchizedek's in your life. Give to those you owe, as you are to let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. If you say you will pay someone, do it. Help the poor, help the widow help the orphan. And if you feel led, help the pastor (I would say church but when we are the church, it takes on a different meaning. Actually, if we really believed it...another thought). But I'd be willing to bet many who give do so because they feel they are letting God down. Every year around spring you'll hear preached from the pulpit how you must give to the church, and it is simply not Biblical. You may, in the same way you give to everyone, and when you do it like that you become a cheerful giver.

So I'd be willing to say my first responsibility is to my family, my mother-in-law a widow, my mother a widow, my father who is dying of cancer and of course my kids. Not to use it in a consumerish way where I just need bigger and better, but to make sure they have their needs met. Then to not go into more debt and be disciplined in what I buy. God has said settle quick with those you owe as the borrower is slave to the lender. The belief that I must first give to the church is simply a tradition that has been passed down for a long time.

 

[Simon_Templar]

This is true. Jesus said if the eye is dark the whole body is dark which means if you are greedy you will suffer.

But when the church teaches on tithing, it should teach on the Biblical examples and go deep. Abraham or Abram didn't tithe like we do today. Nor are not robbing God through your tithes and offerings, a simple study of this book will show who it's to and what they are doing. Not only that, but the whole robbing God has to make it that the tithe is money and your food is spiritual...but only spiritual from a pastor.

Give, and it will be given back to you. Give to take care of your family because one who doesn't is worse than an unbeliever. Give to those you meet who bless you, or the Melchizedek's in your life. Give to those you owe, as you are to let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. If you say you will pay someone, do it. Help the poor, help the widow help the orphan. And if you feel led, help the pastor (I would say church but when we are the church, it takes on a different meaning. Actually, if we really believed it...another thought). But I'd be willing to bet many who give do so because they feel they are letting God down. Every year around spring you'll hear preached from the pulpit how you must give to the church, and it is simply not Biblical. You may, in the same way you give to everyone, and when you do it like that you become a cheerful giver.

So I'd be willing to say my first responsibility is to my family, my mother-in-law a widow, my mother a widow, my father who is dying of cancer and of course my kids. Not to use it in a consumerish way where I just need bigger and better, but to make sure they have their needs met. Then to not go into more debt and be disciplined in what I buy. God has said settle quick with those you owe as the borrower is slave to the lender. The belief that I must first give to the church is simply a tradition that has been passed down for a long time.

I don't disagree with anything you said here. My views on the Church differ from pretty much everyone else in here. My views on a lot of things are.

I absolutely agree that we have priorities that we need to follow. Many people have the mistaken idea that it is spiritual to shirk your responsabilities (such as to family) in order to serve God, etc. The reality is they are disobeying God to do such a thing (as seen in the very verse you referenced).
The world, and sadly the church is full of people who think they are doing God's will and following his call when in reality they are doing the exact opposite of what he actually commanded.

I also have no time for those who make the Faith all about money, or who use subtle tactics to manipulate people into giving money. I have no doubt that people who do this will answer for every penny.

 

[Svt4Him]

I don't disagree with anything you said here. My views on the Church differ from pretty much everyone else in here. My views on a lot of things are.

I absolutely agree that we have priorities that we need to follow. Many people have the mistaken idea that it is spiritual to shirk your responsabilities (such as to family) in order to serve God, etc. The reality is they are disobeying God to do such a thing (as seen in the very verse you referenced).
The world, and sadly the church is full of people who think they are doing God's will and following his call when in reality they are doing the exact opposite of what he actually commanded.

I also have no time for those who make the Faith all about money, or who use subtle tactics to manipulate people into giving money. I have no doubt that people who do this will answer for every penny.

I know some who are amazing in manipulating people into giving money. Yet these people love and fear God and are prayerful people. The reason I had to do such an in-depth study of tithing is because of them, and I actually really respect them in all areas but this. I could give examples of how there has been manipulation, but it would serve no purpose. In your opinion, why do they do this?

 

[hislegacy]

Don't be stingy. Don't store for yourself earthly treasures. But don't give to a man-made tradition while your family is hungry. Don't make others wait to be paid (go into debt) while you tithe to the church, there is no excuse for this. But don't be irresponsible, otherwise you have the groundwork for what happened with the mortgage crisis. If you want to give to the church, by all means do. If you believe you are the church and you want to have a BBQ to reach out and love you neighbour, by all means do. I'd bet though we'd feel too guilty to do that.

I'll grant you this - and to a major extent I agree with what's written. But given that less than 15% of people who call themselves Christians actually give 10% of their income. I don't think it's a widespread problem.

The issues are exaserbated by ministers who do what Kenneth Hagin wrote about in his book.

 

[Pat Colby]

The best thing a congregation can do to a leader who uses scripture to leverage tithe.Is to put him under discipline,and make him get a side job,as Paul did,not to be a burden.There are numerous citations that show he worked to be an example for people.In Both Thessolonian letters,Acts 18,Acts 20,1 Corinthians 9,2 Corinthians 11-12.Acts 20,in particular,he was talking to ELDERS.

He also said to give only if the person had it,and it was to be out of their extra,not off the gross income,as we see taught today.He also said it was not a command.I have citations for these too.Blessings,Pat.

 

[JEBrady]

This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

I've tithed for decades, but always felt hard put to justify it scripturally as a NT principle. While I've given above the tithe as it was in my heart to do so, I considered the tithe to be "not mine to give", since it belonged to God anyway, and I really think there have been times when I just gave it joylessly and legalistically. I've also wondered if it wasn't an excuse for not giving total control of my purse to the Lord, since it's easier to just give a "set" amount rather than to trust God fully and give as He directs.

This thread is becoming personally valuable, and I think it's going to bring me to a new way of ordering my finances before God.

 

[ydouxist]

Are you asking if we are fulfilling our requirements by tithing or are you saying we are?

I'm saying if you love your neighbor as yourself giving isn't even an issue forget the 10%. Perfect love HAS to give. For God so loved the world He GAVE.

 

[ARBITER01]

The best thing a congregation can do to a leader who uses scripture to leverage tithe....

You just mentioned something a lot of folks are somewhat oblivious to. It is advantageous for a leader of a semi large church to promote tithing to force the congregation to give. It happens a lot.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I know some who are amazing in manipulating people into giving money. Yet these people love and fear God and are prayerful people. The reason I had to do such an in-depth study of tithing is because of them, and I actually really respect them in all areas but this. I could give examples of how there has been manipulation, but it would serve no purpose. In your opinion, why do they do this?

I couldn't begin to offer a valid opinion about the specific people you know, since I don't know them.

I can give you my observations and my experiences that I think may be pertinent.

First. I was raised in a non-denom, evangelical, charismatic church and spent the first 30 years of my life in that church. It was a relatively small church, so everyone knew everyone else pretty well.

Growing up and even as an adult I believe most of the elder figures in that church were really mature people of God, very spiritual people, who loved God and knew God.
These were people I knew well and had known for literally my whole life.

I had begun to be discontent with church in general, though it was kind of vague and I didn't have specific reasons why at the time. I stuck in that church anyway because my dad was the pastor and it was a matter of family loyalty and I knew he wouldn't take it well if I left etc.

Eventually there began to be some troubles that culminated in some of the elders basically taking over the church and forcing my dad out. Now, I don't pretend to think, or intend to convey that my dad was perfect. He had a lot of faults as a pastor and I can understand why some people were discontent with him. I can understand and sympathize to a certain degree with the opinions and viewpoints of people on both sides of this issue.
However, something was clearly revealed to me during this process. Many of the people who I had respected and believed to be real mature people of God, spiritually mature people, etc. Proved that they were not what I thought they were. It was an eye opening experience.
Since that time I've continued in contact and friendship with people on both sides of the issue, but in spiritual terms I have also been significantly distanced from people on both sides of the issue. I'm not on either side but I fellowship from time to time with both sides so I see both sides.

What I see is that very few if any of the people I once believed to be truly mature and close to God, really know God very well. I don't doubt their intentions for the most part, and I have no doubt that they are sincere believers. They are very sincere about their feelings in worship, and so on. I don't believe that any of that is made up, or put on.
But what I have learned, and I don't think most of them have, is that relationship isn't about feeling. We used to judge how much someone loved God by how they felt, how they responded emotionally to worship, to prayer etc. The reality is that has almost nothing to do with actual relationship.

When I say it has little to do with it.. I should clarify that I mean showing feeling, is not a reliable sign of depth of relationship. Even when the feeling is sincere.
Feeling and emotion are good, I'm not advocating that they should be shunned or avoided. Just that they are unreliable and they don't actually truly foster depth of relationship.

So when someone tells me that a person really loves God, and is spiritually mature etc... I don't put a lot of stock in it because most of the outward signs that people go by really often don't correlate to true depth of relationship.
I've known people who were tremendous students of scripture, people who throw themselves into worship etc, but don't really know God all that well.

Probably the best real measure of how much someone really loves God and knows God, is how much they love others and how much they sacrifice of themselves for others.

Sorry if that got long

The second point I wanted to make is that no one is perfect. Even people who really do love God a great deal and who really do know God well still have character flaws and are still human. In general they try to over come them, but thats an ongoing process.

Connected to this is simply the reality that a lot of sincere people are badly taught on various issues. The people you know may have been raised with that view point about raising money and had it engrained in them.
By far the majority of people do not seriously question the view points that have been really engrained in them. They look, uncounciously usually, to prove and uphold those view points and this basically makes them blind on those issues.
God works with people where they are at, and we are all in different places. Maybe they aren't to the point yet in God's working with them where that issue can be addressed.
That doesn't mean they are necessarily infants in the faith or anything like that. They may be way better off in other areas that you and I aren't ready to address yet in our own lives.

 

[WOFFER]

This subject was brought up in another thread. So let's discuss this, please.
Are Christians obligated to tithe?

I say no. But I am not offended by it. It is an area where people disagree.


.

No, tithing is not biblical for NT believers.

 

[Pat Colby]

You just mentioned something a lot of folks are somewhat oblivious to. It is advantageous for a leader of a semi large church to promote tithing to force the congregation to give. It happens a lot.

I agree.There are some churches that dont even allow some to serve,if they don't tithe.If I am not mistaken,the early church did not tithe until about 800 years after the cross.

Your right about whom it serves.Here is a great verse from scripture,when Paul confronted exploiters.Imagine the fortitude of Paul,not wanting to burden the churches,while he was fighting tooth and nail for them,and all the churches to spread the Gospel.


2 cor 12:14 Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

 

[Svt4Him]

We were taken out of leadership because we don't believe in tithing. We can serve as in help put up and take down what's needed, but for the rest, we can't help. It was because of this I had to start a more in-depth study on tithing and realized just how much was tradition and how much was self-serving teachings. The OT tithe was only on animals and grain, never on money. If you study how it changed, you will see it has little to do with grace or the Bible, but it is a deep-seated teaching and those are hard to get away from.

As mentioned before, people erroneously think if you don't believe in tithing you are greedy. I think that is part of the reason why we always feel guilty if we don't give specifically to the church and it's also the reason people give with little to no joy.

The kingdom principle is don't be stingy, help those you can and build eternal treasures, it's not you have to give, at minimum, 10% of your income to the institutionalized church or you're robbing God.

 

[Yitzchak]

If we look at the reason behind the original tithe. It was because the Levites could not pursue wealth like the other tribes because they were comitted to the temple duties.Every third year , the tithe went to the widows and orphans for the same reason. They were not able to support themselves. What I got out of it is that the tithe is those with abundance who have wealth to share with those who have lack. The lack could be because of full time ministry , but is not limited to just that.

So I do believe in the principle behind tithing. Just not the legalistic 10%and not the excluding of the poor from receiving of it. The principle has not changed as is listed here in this New Testament verse. The manna given was the Old Testament passage quoted here. We see in the manna G-d teaching us how to handle this issue. Do not horde , but share so that all will have what they need.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
2Co 8:15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

 

[Svt4Him]

I'm not sure if you are to give the whole tithe to the widows and orphans or if they are to join you in it every three years. I tend to think the last tithe of the year is for the widows, orphans and you can't forget the Levite.

22“You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.
23And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.
24But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you,
25then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses.
26And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
27You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
28“At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates.
29And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

I'm saying if you love your neighbor as yourself giving isn't even an issue forget the 10%. Perfect love HAS to give. For God so loved the world He GAVE.

You have summed this up so well.

Just give Jesus what you think He is worth.

If you think Jesus is worth a McDonald's, put £3 in the offering basket next time it goes by.

If you think hearing the Word preached, having a life of victory, peace and joy is worth a bit more give a bit more.

When I was not a Christian my god was drink. Never caught me failing to give 10% to my god then. I had a girlfriend who was my god for a while too, I always spent more than 10% on her too.

Same with God. And the only way I can give to God is to give to His people. Buy the single mum in the church a new washing machine, buy new speakers for the sound system, put money in the offering, set up the church's website for no charge and so on.

I don't give because I have to. God loves me NO MATTER WHAT I DO. I give because I love God, more than anything else.

If you claim you love God more than anything else, but your bank statement doesn't show more money going to God than anywhere else, I don't believe you. I love you, I just don't believe you...