To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question! (2)

LOL, let me get. This right

If

You tithe and share how your tithe helped people - your bragging

But if

You don't tithe, but open threads sharing how you think other people's giving is being used, that is discernment.

Hmmmm.......

WordofHisPower said:

@ BeforeThereWas

Jacob promised to tithe and then broke his promise? Where's scripture say that?

Abraham tithed from something that wasn't legally his? I think not.

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it was war spoils, not his money in gen 14.

A bragging tither nullifies tithing? Then a bragging non-tither nullifies non-tithing?

Tithing from all his possessions is a law tithe? You 7 anti-tithers have been saying it's only crops and livestock.

The Pharisee's tithing mint and herbs. Tithing herbs isn't a law tithe. Christ's telling him to keep tithing apart from the law.

You're right about some Pharisees not being Levites.

Already answered the give 10% of all your possessions in post # 33. Honor the Lord with all your possessions and with the firstfruits. Firstfruits, tithes, alms, offerings are the only forms of giving to the Lord anywhere in scripture. This type of terminology is used elsewhere for tithing. 10% is the only number associated with any of these 4. IOW firstfruits, tithe, alms, offerings, were all 10%, so whatever you consider this to be, it still ends up 10%.

Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes. Read those chapters for clarification. I'll try to post the whole thing in a different post later.

2 Chronicles 31:5 isn't a law tithe. It says a tithe of all, not only crops or livestock. All means all. Just like Abraham gave a tithe of all. That's a lot more than crops and livestock.

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WordofHisPower said:

@ BeforeThereWas

Jacob promised to tithe and then broke his promise? Where's scripture say that?

Abraham tithed from something that wasn't legally his? I think not.

A bragging tither nullifies tithing? Then a bragging non-tither nullifies non-tithing?

Tithing from all his possessions is a law tithe? You 7 anti-tithers have been saying it's only crops and livestock.

The Pharisee's tithing mint and herbs. Tithing herbs isn't a law tithe. Christ's telling him to keep tithing apart from the law.

You're right about some Pharisees not being Levites.

Already answered the give 10% of all your possessions in post # 33. Honor the Lord with all your possessions and with the firstfruits. Firstfruits, tithes, alms, offerings are the only forms of giving to the Lord anywhere in scripture. This type of terminology is used elsewhere for tithing. 10% is the only number associated with any of these 4. IOW firstfruits, tithe, alms, offerings, were all 10%, so whatever you consider this to be, it still ends up 10%.

Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes. Read those chapters for clarification. I'll try to post the whole thing in a different post later.

2 Chronicles 31:5 isn't a law tithe. It says a tithe of all, not only crops or livestock. All means all. Just like Abraham gave a tithe of all. That's a lot more than crops and livestock.

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the incident with the pharisees? Jesus actually said the tithe was not important there by comparison, besides, they were under tithe laws.

let me ask you this, since u use the pharisees. Are we too keep the jewish food restriction laws, no shrimp, lobster, crab, pork, catfish? The kept them do we, and can we wear interwoven clothing, cotton and poly clothing, they could not, can we?

you use the pharisees with tithe laws, and food laws were more important in judaism, so please advise

WordofHisPower said:

As to where each person hands over their tithe is what the Holy Spirit leads them to do.

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That's a very broad assumption.

I also noticed you avoided answering my questions in post 62 onward. You make wild claims, and then provide no support or reasoning behind any of it.

If an institutional church organization is using God's money properly then all of it can go there.

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Based upon what? What do you consider "proper"?

If they're not, God will show you where to give your tithe. It's up to each person to ask God.

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The Lord told me to challenge people on this issue because so many out there aren't listening to Him or reading His written word.

If you don't ask God where to tithe, you can't complain about the way the tithe's used.

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It's also true many people are more subject to their feelings originating from what they're taught by the many false teachers within institutionalized religion. Nothing new about this at all.

BTW

WordofHisPower said:

@ BeforeThereWas

Jacob promised to tithe and then broke his promise? Where's scripture say that?

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Because you didn't quote me, you seem to think you therefore have license to misrepresent what I actually said.

I said there's no evidence he actually fulfilled his promise. There's no evidence he ever did so because nothing else is said to lend credible reason to believe he did what he said he would do. After all, he's known as a lying scoundrel at times in his life. His name even means "deceiver".

Abraham tithed from something that wasn't legally his? I think not.

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You really have a subjective memory of what I actually said.

I said nothing about legalities. I said that the very action of intentionally returning to the place and the people from whom the spoils were stolen, and his actively giving it back to them, clearly shows that he never had any intention of keeping what he knew was not his to begin with.

Are you telling us that you would keep other people's property you retrieved from a crook, rather than to return the property to the rightful owner(s)? Come on! Who are you trying to fool?

A bragging tither nullifies tithing? Then a bragging non-tither nullifies non-tithing?

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What are you talking about?

Tithing from all his possessions is a law tithe? You 7 anti-tithers have been saying it's only crops and livestock.

The Pharisee's tithing mint and herbs. Tithing herbs isn't a law tithe. Christ's telling him to keep tithing apart from the law.

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Wrong. The produce, even from gardens, is produce from the land, which fell with within the confines of the Law. Nice try, but the ol' switcheroo doesn't work against those of us who know better.

Already answered the give 10% of all your possessions in post # 33. Honor the Lord with all your possessions and with the firstfruits. Firstfruits, tithes, alms, offerings are the only forms of giving to the Lord anywhere in scripture.

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NOWHERE does scripture say to tithe from ALL one's possessions. The best you can do is to provide reference to a verse-out-of-context you're misrepresenting here.

This type of terminology is used elsewhere for tithing. 10% is the only number associated with any of these 4. IOW firstfruits, tithe, alms, offerings, were all 10%, so whatever you consider this to be, it still ends up 10%.

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Prove it! Show me where such things as alms was based upon 10%. Show me where offerings was based upon 10%.

Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes. Read those chapters for clarification. I'll try to post the whole thing in a different post later.

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The context shows us that the tithe was used as the measuring of which priesthood was superior. Nowhere does the context speak of a continuance of tithing from believers to institutional church organizations.

2 Chronicles 31:5 isn't a law tithe. It says a tithe of all, not only crops or livestock. All means all. Just like Abraham gave a tithe of all. That's a lot more than crops and livestock.

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You forgot that the things from which the tithe was to be taken was already defined in Deuteronomy. Therefore to try and separate those things out in such a fashion as to assume that wages were a part of what was given is to assume into the text what clearly isn't there.

Again, nice try.

BTW

Stop using facts to support your belief, it makes the other six of us look bad!

Nice post though, and it doesn't even start to touch on what happened to some of the tithe.

Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

BeforeThereWas said:

Because you didn't quote me, you seem to think you therefore have license to misrepresent what I actually said.

I said there's no evidence he actually fulfilled his promise. There's no evidence he ever did so because nothing else is said to lend credible reason to believe he did what he said he would do. After all, he's known as a lying scoundrel at times in his life. His name even means "deceiver".



You really have a subjective memory of what I actually said.

I said nothing about legalities. I said that the very action of intentionally returning to the place and the people from whom the spoils were stolen, and his actively giving it back to them, clearly shows that he never had any intention of keeping what he knew was not his to begin with.

Are you telling us that you would keep other people's property you retrieved from a crook, rather than to return the property to the rightful owner(s)? Come on! Who are you trying to fool?



What are you talking about?



Wrong. The produce, even from gardens, is produce from the land, which fell with within the confines of the Law. Nice try, but the ol' switcheroo doesn't work against those of us who know better.



NOWHERE does scripture say to tithe from ALL one's possessions. The best you can do is to provide reference to a verse-out-of-context you're misrepresenting here.



Prove it! Show me where such things as alms was based upon 10%. Show me where offerings was based upon 10%.



The context shows us that the tithe was used as the measuring of which priesthood was superior. Nowhere does the context speak of a continuance of tithing from believers to institutional church organizations.



You forgot that the things from which the tithe was to be taken was already defined in Deuteronomy. Therefore to try and separate those things out in such a fashion as to assume that wages were a part of what was given is to assume into the text what clearly isn't there.

Again, nice try.

BTW

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The tithe proponents have so little to go on, as far as scripture is concerned. I find the doctrine to be a paper tiger. Thanks, Source.

<Staff Edit> Yes, it says you should tithe in the OT. But does it say you "shouldn't" tithe in the NT?? I totally agree that we are not under the law anymore, but we can't disreguard the whole OT. The whole point of tithing is to break the power of GREED in your life and to give God back what He has given to you and to trust in Him! Even if you barely have enough money to get by, to still give to God and see how He will provide for everything you need. Give God your "first fruits" of your labor; not your leftovers. (In other words, your gross.. not your net. And give to Him FIRST!). If you don't tithe.. start tithing to your church and give where God tells you to and just see how much of a difference He will make and the blessing He will overflow in your life. "Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the best part of everything you produce. Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with good wine." Proverbs 3:9-10.
Here's my testimoney... At the same time I started tithing, God told me to go on a 6 month missions trip with YWAM which meant leaving my job, and spending over $10,000 on it. I was quite worried about finances at this time as you can probably guess. But even though I was trying to save money, I kept tithing. I had the money to go, but I was worried about what I was going to do about finances when I would get back home. But, I put my trust in God and He provided! Instead of having to quit my job, my boss gave me a 6 month leave of absence. As well, out of nowhere, I found out I was going to recieve $22,000 from my late mothers part of my grandparents will. Now thats provision! Since then, I've been giving my "gross" tithe as well as offerings on top where God tells me to give, I am stress free about money, I love being generous, and God just provided me with a brand new house for myself!! (And I'm only 24yrs old!) Glory be to God! Amen!
PS. Be a "conduit" of blessing; not a "cul-de-sac". God blesses you so you can bless others. Which means to tithe and give!!

WordofHisPower said:

Here's some scriptures on tithing, including pre-law and post law.
Tithing can be done as a form of worship.
Those who feel it's an obligation are missing the spirit of thankfulness and the spirit of giving behind tithing.

NON-LAW
*Abraham tithes (10%) on something he won. Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

*Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. Genesis 28:22

*NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. Luke 18:12

*NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. Matthew 23:23

*Honor the Lord with all your possession. Proverbs 3:9

*NT tithing through Christ. Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

LAW
*Lay aside a tithe of your increase for the Levite and the poor. Remove it from your house and give it. Deuteronomy 26:12-13

*Tithe (10%) is holy to the Lord. Leviticus 27:30

*The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. 2 Chronicles 31:5

1st tithe to support those doing the Lord's work. Leviticus 27:30, Numbers 8

2nd tithe to take family on yearly feast in God's presence. Deuteronomy 14:22-27

3rd tithe is the 2 year poor tithe to look after the poor. Deuteronomy 14:28-29

Tithe of the produce of the land to the Levites. Nehemiah 10:37

Tithe of the tithe to the storehouse by the Levites. Nehemiah 10:38

Malachi tithe into the storehouse. Malachi 3:10

There's no command from God or Christ to stop tithing.

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NON-LAW

Living through and by having a relationship with the Great I AM, meaning that you live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of One you is always with you. So you give what He tells you, where He tells you, and when He tells you, and if you have any questions about 'what, where, or when' you just ask Him.

LAW

Living by a set of rules instead of through a personal relationship with the Great I Am.



History has shown that men are not capable of obtainly righteousness by living from a set of rules. That is why Jesus Christ (The Word) took on flesh and became the sacrifice!!

So since He did that for us shouldn't we seek The Word and what He has to say to us about all aspects of our life. Of course if a person doesn't believe that The Word (Jesus Christ) is near you (in your heart and in your mouth) then perhaps their only choice is to try and live by a set of rules instead of just asking the Word about what to do and when.

Now it is written that the Law is fulfilled through Christ, so what is He going to tell you?

He told Abraham to give 10% to the king of Salem. Maybe someone does understand that Abraham gave 10% because he got an instruction from the Lord. And there is a reason they don't understand. The reason is that they havn't practiced living a life by just listen to the Lord regularly! And because of that they don't understand what was happening when they read the Bible.

They might notice that Abraham gave back to the king of Sodom all that belong to the king of Sodom because Abraham had sworn to the Lord to do just that, but somehow they fail to realize that if Abraham swore to the Lord to to that, then the Lord must have been talking to Abraham. They miss what was taking place. A converstaion took place between Abraham and the Lord that went something like:

God - "Abraham, I need you to give back to the king of Sodom all that belongs to him"

Abraham - "Ok Lord - I do just as you want."

Because we don't have these regular conversation with the Lord we don't understand what's going on. Did you think that somehow Abraham just came up with the idea of giving all that had belong to the king of Sodom all by himself. Why would Abraham do that. He had done the conquering and it was his to keep and own. There was no legal reason to give either to the king of Sodom or the king of Salem, but Abraham was a man of faith, and as such understood that God was with Him and so he gave just as the Lord asked.

So if you talk to the Lord and live a life of faith, and remember faith comes from hearing a word from the Great I Am, then He is going to ask you to give. Maybe he asks you to give 10% to someone like the king of Salem (your local church perhaps). Or maybe He asks you to give all that belongs to the king of Sodom back to him. Remember the rich man that asked Jesus what he needed to do to get to heaven. Jesus didn't tell him to give 10%, but rather to sale all he had, give it to the poor, and come follow Him.

People - when you say to give 10% you are advocating living by rules and laws, and you are not putting your faith in the fact that The Word is Near You!! You are not proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, but are going back to works of the Law.

Yeah - living by the Law will require you give 10%. Living through a relationship with Jesus Christ will result in you giving all back to the king of Sodom also!! And follow the Lord who can and will talk to you about what, where, and when to give!

Or do you still not understand what living a life by faith means?

It means that He is, not that He was!! So talk to Him! Take all thing to Him (like how much to give) and listen! Or can you still not understand that prayer is a two way conversation with your Creator? --- If not, you are still under the Law or turned back to works of the Law, as can be seen by an insistance to live by rules instead of by a relationship.

cwalker02 said:

<Staff Edit> Yes, it says you should tithe in the OT. But does it say you "shouldn't" tithe in the NT?? I totally agree that we are not under the law anymore, but we can't disreguard the whole OT.

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Actually, the NT does say tithing is no longer required. In Acts 15, we see Peter say what's required from the Law,

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

No mention of tithing being a requirement in there at all. If you continue to insist people tithe, please demand that they do it correctly and obey all of the Law starting with circumcision and animal sacrifice.

where is there a NT command, to bind the church to tithing?

<Staff Edit>

Yes, it says you should tithe in the OT. But does it say you "shouldn't" tithe in the NT??

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It's stated by Jesus Himself in the NT to go and offer up burnt sacrifices. I bet you don't do that, do you?

I totally agree that we are not under the law anymore, but we can't disreguard the whole OT.

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The OT shows us that no wage earners were required to hand over a tenth of their monetary wages to the Levites. So, what's your proof that the OT establishes tithing for today?

The whole point of tithing is to break the power of GREED in your life and to give God back what He has given to you and to trust in Him!

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According to what? The Bible doesn't say that, but you seem to think yourself qualified to try and create facts out of thin air that have no support from scripture.

Even if you barely have enough money to get by, to still give to God and see how He will provide for everything you need. Give God your "first fruits" of your labor; not your leftovers. (In other words, your gross.. not your net. And give to Him FIRST!).

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Giving a glass of water to a thirsting child is giving to God, so what are you trying to say is the manner whereby people give to God?

If you don't tithe.. start tithing to your church and give where God tells you to and just see how much of a difference He will make and the blessing He will overflow in your life.

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Handing the largest, primary portion of one's giving to MOST of institutionalized religion is ROBBERY of God, not giving TO Him.

"Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the best part of everything you produce. Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with good wine." Proverbs 3:9-10.

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Yes, and that giving was tied directly to the temple and its priesthood. Maybe YOU aren't a priest unto the Most High God, but I am.

You've done well at regurgitating the same old lies we've all heard from pulpits in almost every city and institution. Nothing new about any of it. Antiquity and general acceptance of something doesn't make it true in the eyes of God.

BTW

K2K said:

God - "Abraham, I need you to give back to the king of Sodom all that belongs to him"

Abraham - "Ok Lord - I do just as you want."

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Do you have a reference for any of this?

BTW

BeforeThereWas said:

Do you have a reference for any of this?

BTW

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Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord God Most His, possessor of heaven and earth, that I will not take a thread or a sandal thong or anything that is your, for fear you would say, 'I have made Abram rich'.

Now there are a couple of ways of looking at this verse. One is from someone who thinks they can't actually have a converesation with God. Someone like that has to think that Abram came up with this idea all by himself. So Abram just told God, and of course God did not talk to Him. That is what most people would think, because most people don't live by faith. They think the Word of God is far off in a place like heaven, so He might hear but can't talk to us.

There is another understanding of the same verse which results from living by faith in a God that is near usm so that we can inquire and hear from, just like you might hear from someone in the same room as you. They see that Abram swore to God, and understand that he was having a conversatoin with Him. That is God was saying things to Abram, and Abram was responding and saying things to God, based upon what he was told by God. If you don't understand that the Word is near you, then you can understand what I am talking about. But if a person does have regualr conversation with the Lord, they realized that Abram was swearing (promising) to God because God was talking to him.

Now we don't know exactly how the conversation between God and Abram went, but pray is a conversation with God, so since Abram talked to God, God also talk to Abram. We are not to say in our heart 'who will ascend into heaven', that is to bring Christ down. But rather we preach the Word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart, so that we can have a conversation with Him at any time. But perhaps not everyone understanding that. Some can only grasp that Abram talked to God, but can't understand that of course Abram talking to God meant he was having a conversation with God.

Frogster said:

where is there a NT command, to bind the church to tithing?

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Not just to "tithe" but to do so in the complete and intentional mutilation of what it was as a Scriptural command to the Israelites ...

Why is such a thing required for obtaining and maintaining salvation ? Does the Lord need a bribe ? Upon rebirth , is it retroactive to all they have been given until that time ? Complete records before they are reborn would be spotty at best for most people . How can they pay for their salvation in those cases ?

Simple solution to the question of to tithe or not.

Do what your conscience says.

The conscience is the "voice" of your born again spirit where the Holy Spirit lives.

New_Wineskin said:

Not just to "tithe" but to do so in the complete and intentional mutilation of what it was as a Scriptural command to the Israelites ...

Why is such a thing required for obtaining and maintaining salvation ? Does the Lord need a bribe ? Upon rebirth , is it retroactive to all they have been given until that time ? Complete records before they are reborn would be spotty at best for most people . How can they pay for their salvation in those cases ?

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yes, tithers seem to think it is a financial/spiritual maintnence program, today's circumcision, be snipped to be "in".

Optimax said:

Simple solution to the question of to tithe or not.

Do what your conscience says.

The conscience is the "voice" of your born again spirit where the Holy Spirit lives.

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but the counscience can be taken over by guilt, by tithe malachi 3 guilt fear text manipulations/mutilations.

That's the WRONG Question!! The RIGHT Question is:

What's my motivation for giving???

Optimax said:

Simple solution to the question of to tithe or not.

Do what your conscience says.

The conscience is the "voice" of your born again spirit where the Holy Spirit lives.

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Not quite: We all have a conscience! I had a conscience before I knew the Lord. Your conscience is 'your' conscience. Then there is the small voice of the Lord talking to you, if you are born again. They might come across kind of similar, but they are not quite connected like you think.

For example; In the USA we drive on the right side of the road. There is a part of us (a conscience) that will, because of training, experience, and expectations in our society, speak to us if we are driving on the wrong side of the road.

Now the Lord is not controled by our conscience, He is always going to tell us to do what is right. So if we go to a country where people drive on the left side of the road, there is going to be an awkardness and even a part of you questioning if you are doing what you should, but that is not the Lord.

This is probably more evident in customes of different cultures. Chrisianity has offend come against cultural differences in the name of God. Yet it wasn't God but rather their conscience which condemned the other society because of cultural differences. The Lord understands cultural differences, which is not the same thing as worshiping other gods.

And this is important to understand when talking about tithing. We develope a culture in many churches that demand tithing, but it is not God but the conscience of people. And churches often play off peoples conscience instead of turning them to God for advice.

His thoughts are not your thoughts!!!

Your conscience is 'your' conscience and is a part of 'you' that tries to follow the laws, rules, and customs of the land in a reasonable way. Jesus said He and the Father are one, and that they would come and make their abode in you. So you are seeking the voice of 'God', which doesn't think like you!!

Your conscience thinks like you, because it is you. The Lord so often asks us to do what seem like crazy things to us, because He doesn't think like me!! My conscience never asks me to do what seems like crazy things, because it is me!!

The Lord once had me get a car, which had a gas gauge that always showed full. He didn't want me to get it fixed, but it being broken forced me to trust and turn to Him to find out when I need to get gas. It was crazy driving a car when I didn't know if it would run out of gas, but it did indeed force me to seek the voice of God everytime I got in the car.

My conscience (because there is part of me that wants to conform) or someone trying to getting me to feel guitly by playing on my conscience, might try to get me to give 10% according to the law of the land.

But it is written, "He takes away the first in order to establish the second" (Heb 10:9)

The Law of sacrifice and offering has been taking away, in oder to establish a relationship with us.

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD"

My friends - The Bible explains that Jesus Christ has come; that His sheep hear His voice and are lead by His voice. So why do you say the people must give 10% as a sacrifice and also make an offering of what ever is on their heart? Why are you not saying, talk to the Lord and listen to Him??? Is not your message all wrong? Are you not preaching the Law and instead of Jesus Christ? Are you not acting like someone who doesn't walk and talk with Him daily?

If you are walking and talking with Him, then surely you are telling others to do like wise, because that is what you do. Yet if you are telling others that they need to live by rules and trying to get their conscience (the part of us that wants to conform to rules) to get them to live by rules instead of by the voice of our Lord Jesus Christ, then isn't that because you are not being lead by His voice, but perhaps the voice of your conscience?

The rule you need to be following is "HEAR, O ISREAL!"

Mark 12:28, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, HEAR, O ISREAL!....