To those who don't believe in eternal security...

corinth77777 said:

You said,Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)

This believes...is it not continual

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What makes one "believes" he is son?.

God's Revelation..Faith comes by hearing
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyman that believes


We look to Jesus? Why?
Because we know we have sin........

One look intending to follow..and I inferr we get (regeneration, justification,sanctification, and Glorification.)...full package.

This package is the source...[Jesus's spirit]

Now that by that one look we receive ...the full package..
And at this point possess salvation itself....

What is next but to intend to follow what we looked to (Jesus the Christ, the full package)

Once we intend to follow..[obey from the heart]....This is where regeneration takes place....A new life from above...Born again..spiritually..

Speaking of which...just came to mind as a sperm cell and egg cell uniting....but spiritual...
Our will intertwined with God's....or our spirit intertwined with His, Christ's spirit equals Regeneration....
Now ......when we yield to the spirit we comform to his image

We cannot do it alone!....We need to be regenerated...after being regenerated if we sin...our advocate is Christ...we can repent again...receive forgiveness and keep pressing on toward the mark of the high calling jesus Christ. [renewal]
We are in a state [flesh] where it with its habbits is in need of cleansing..looking to Jesus Christ

It is here we Come to understand passages..by living out his word..

HIs word can be intellectualized all day...but until. We trust him...we have yet to have a relationship..

in the same light....we relate to our significant other..spending time in what they are doing...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes, and not only continual.
There are over FORTY OTHER CRITERIA in the NEW TESTAMENT,
and
many of those IN JESUS OWN WORDS
that
describe those who are saved. (who are NOT pretenders)

If someone pretends for most of them (like the scribes and pharisees did)
or even for all but one (like Nicodemus )
then they are not saved.

i.e. EVERY WORD of YHWH , not just one or a few pulled out as if.

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lol..that was meant to be a rhetorical...question...lol
But thanks for answering...

Thing is you know you have life when through the spirit we live out the life of Christ....continually...remaining in his love..dying to the flesh....and those with that life will be raised on the last day...

corinth77777 said:

What makes one believes he is son?...God's Revelation..Faith comes by hearing
We look to Jesus? Why? Because we know we have sin........
One look intending to follow..and I inferr we get regeneration justification,sanctification, and Glorification....full package.

This package is the source...[Jesus's spirit]

Now that by that one look we receive ...the full package..
And at this point possess salvation itself....

What is next but to intend to follow what we looked to.

Once we intend to follow..[obey from the heart]....This is where regeneration takes place....A new life from above...Born again..spiritually..

Speaking of which...just came to mind...as...a sperm cell and egg cell uniting....but spiritual...
Our will..intertwined with God's....or our spirit..intertwined with His....Christ's spirit....Regeneration....
Now ......when we yield to the spirit we comform to his image..
We cannot do it alone....outside of first being regenerated...after being regenerated if we sin...our advocate is Christ...we can repent again...receive forgiveness and keep pressing on toward the mark of the high calling jesus Christ.

It is here we Come to understand passages..by living out his word..
HIs word can be intellectualized all day...but until you trust him...you have yet to have a relationship..in the same light....we reale to our significant other..spending time in what they are doing...

Click to expand...

So with this in mine...we must speak of what are we saved from....and if you can have life now you can expect to have life...after being raised..

And if you remain in him now...shall one be ashamed at his coming...Why do we suppose it says that those who look to him puryify themselves....and if they do how.....They continue to look to him.......We are like the pharasees....who take part of the word....just for where we need it...lol and act like the rest of the word need not apply....
Noting that....they didnt think they could keep it...so they relied on doing laws they thought they could....Yet...they lied to the Holy spirit...as we lie to ourselve thinking we do not have to do the law through Christ ourselves...

point is you can have life...Intend to follow...set your mind to things of God daily....

And He will work it out.....

greenguzzi said:

Not as clear as you seem to think it is.
In the context of the believer, the word "regeneration" (παλιγγενεσία) only appears once in the NT (Titus 3), where it is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in the (new) believer's life. It seems to me to point directly to Peter's sermon in Acts 2.

God's people in God's place under God's rule.
(Graeme Goldsworthy)

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Let's compare the views:

I said the tares are those who are not regenerated even though they initially believed because they did not continue to believe.

You seem to be saying that the tares are those who are regenerated when they initially believed.


It all hangs on what we think the Holy Spirit contributes to regeneration.

It seems that a request for baptism is a request for a process to be started, an application to be included in a string of events that God will set in motion.

1. He will give the Holy Spirit to help us understand his message
2. He will proclaim the message
3. Belief will enable a revelation of the kingdom of God
4. Acting on that belief will lead to entering that kingdom.

We know that enlightenment does not guarantee belief, because many understand God's ability to deliver, but do not want to volunteer to demonstrate that ability. It's like the crowd that cheers the tight rope walker who carries his assistant across on his shoulder, but do not want to take that assistant's place.

So Titus 3 does speak about the regeneration by the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't specify that it is monergistic. The Holy Spirit is involved, but only in communicating the message and helping to understand the message. You get this with baptism. What you don't get is monergistic regeneration.

We know that many will get all the benefits of baptism, exposure to the message and enlightenment, but many will not respond as they should. God will not be pleased when His voice is heard and not obeyed, resulting in Him swearing that these latter will not enter His rest.

As for those who obey, meta noia, change mindset, who switch from serving the world to serving God, they will see the kingdom of God, his partnering with them, and enter the kingdom of God, begin partnering with Him.

Jesus used the phrase 'finger of God' in describing the power behind his work:

Luke 11
220But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

He was obviously connecting the idea with the occurrence of the phrase in OT:

Exodus 8
19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

So the kingdom of God, rather than God's rule, is God's partnering. When God decides to get involved, to let His kingdom come, His will be done, nothing can prevail over his actions.

Acts 5
38So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.

@aiki and razzelflabben. Remember that we are all Christians here. We are all on the same team.

There is usually a lot more unbelievers visiting ,
AND SURPRISE !
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aiki said:

I appreciate that what you have just written is, in your mind, an attempt to foster clearer, more fruitful communication. In reality it amounts to "throwing the Elephant" which is a tactic of argument designed to overwhelm the opponent with information and make a response difficult, if not impossible. Now, you may not have intended to "throw the Elephant" but, regardless, the effect on our conversation is the same: it makes a response to your comments very difficult and time-consuming. Understand then, that if/when I make a response, it is likely to be much larger than what you have just fashioned. I have to go point-by-point through your remarks and reply. It is also going to take considerable time. You will have to wait a while 'til I can write out a full response.

Selah.

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lol I purposely broke it up so that it wouldn't end up being "throwing the elephant" not to mention it isn't even everything you have already been told but refused to address to point.

jason_delisle said:

@aiki and razzelflabben. Remember that we are all Christians here. We are all on the same team.

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I guess I'm done here if this is what I get when I pay compliments and pray before posting so as not to flame anyone....

razzelflabben said:

I guess I'm done here if this is what I get when I pay compliments and pray before posting so as not to flame anyone....

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It was just a general comment. I am glad that you are trying to change your tone. During a conversation I had with my pastor, he recommended that I focus my attention "upward instead of outward". What he meant was that rather than arguing amongst other believers in order to win arguments for personal gain, we should be focusing that time sharing the gospel to win over souls for God's gain.

jason_delisle said:

It was just a general comment. I am glad that you are trying to change your tone. During a conversation I had with my pastor, he recommended that I focus my attention "upward instead of outward". What he meant was that rather than arguing amongst other believers in order to win arguments for personal gain, we should be focusing that time sharing the gospel to win over souls for God's gain.

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which is the only thing I have ever tried to do...I was getting tired of the way the discussion was going because I would present passages and Lexicon entries, etc. and I would have my points either ignored or taken out of context and then mocked for the misrepresentations, so I took the bull by the horns so to speak and put the whole thing out in a different format so it made it harder for the other poster to misrepresent, twist, and ignore and for that, you issue me a "general comment" like this...sorry, I really do think I am done after that. I even gave the other poster compliments and he took them out of context and insisted they were insults and flaming, that is enough of that, I do not need to subject myself to that type of rude behavior. Even Christ said there is a time to shake the dust off our feet and move on.

razzelflabben said:

which is the only thing I have ever tried to do...I was getting tired of the way the discussion was going because I would present passages and Lexicon entries, etc. and I would have my points either ignored or taken out of context and then mocked for the misrepresentations, so I took the bull by the horns so to speak and put the whole thing out in a different format so it made it harder for the other poster to misrepresent, twist, and ignore and for that, you issue me a "general comment" like this...sorry, I really do think I am done after that. I even gave the other poster compliments and he took them out of context and insisted they were insults and flaming, that is enough of that, I do not need to subject myself to that type of rude behavior. Even Christ said there is a time to shake the dust off our feet and move on.

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Let me ask you a question, is someone not saved for being wrong about eternal security regardless of the fact they believe the gospel? If not, why spend so much effort trying to prove your case? The threat is not about eternal security. The threat to focus on is carnal Christians who are deceived by the idea of "easy believism" that results from eternal security. The question that needs to be addressed is how OSAS should handle "carnal Christians".

jason_delisle said:

Let me ask you a question, is someone not saved for being wrong about eternal security regardless of the fact they believe the gospel? If not, why spend so much effort trying to prove your case? The threat is not about eternal security. The threat to focus on is carnal Christians who are deceived by the idea of "easy believism" that results from eternal security. The question that needs to be addressed is how OSAS should handle "carnal Christians".

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And this has been discussed already. E.g. Does one need a law to not eat dirt?

jason_delisle said:

Let me ask you a question, is someone not saved for being wrong about eternal security regardless of the fact they believe the gospel?

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I answered that in a previous post, if you think I need reprimanded why don't you know the answer to this question? Why did you feel the need to reprimand without reading what I said?

If not, why spend so much effort trying to prove your case? The threat is not about eternal security. The threat to focus on is carnal Christians who are deceived by the idea of "easy believism" that results from eternal security. The question that needs to be addressed is how OSAS should handle "carnal Christians".

Click to expand...

My issue as I already said is knowing all of God I can possibly know which is why I asked people to look at the scriptures with me and show me if I am missing something. IOW's it's a look at the truth of God with other believers so that we can grow together...apparently that is to much to ask of the OSAS crowd which actually tells us a lot if we listen to what God tells us.

jason_delisle said:

Let me ask you a question, is someone not saved for being wrong about eternal security regardless of the fact they believe the gospel? If not, why spend so much effort trying to prove your case? The threat is not about eternal security. The threat to focus on is carnal Christians who are deceived by the idea of "easy believism" that results from eternal security. The question that needs to be addressed is how OSAS should handle "carnal Christians".

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The point is that salvation is contingent on remaining faithful. It could be a weak analogy, but say a person is driven by love of fellow human beings to be an orderly/nurse. He saves many lives through his work and finds it that He has the potential to save even more by studying to be a doctor. You could say his salvation, approval, is now conditional on him being obedient to upgrade his form of service.

This quote, I think, encapsulates that idea:

Ding Ding wrote:

Quote
I agree it does speak for itself, but it was written originally in Greek, and that is where one must go for a careful examination. My time is short, but the Greek verbs used suggest a different interpretation than you think. The use of present participles and the perfect tense strongly suggest something like the following reading.

"Truly, truly, I am saying to you, he that is hearing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) and is believing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) on Him that sent Me, is not presently under condemnation, but is presently passed from death to life."

So, even though I rather strongly suspect you will reject it, a careful study of the Greek reveals that this verse connects a current state of life to a current state of hearing/belief. This verse makes no promise of continued life in the case of former (not current) hearing/belief.

Wordkeeper said:

The point is that salvation is contingent on remaining faithful. It could be a weak analogy, but say a person is driven by love of fellow human beings to be an orderly/nurse. He saves many lives through his work and finds it that He has the potential to save even more by studying to be a doctor. You could say his salvation, approval, is now conditional on him being obedient to upgrade his form of service.

This quote, I think, encapsulates that idea:

Ding Ding wrote:

Quote
I agree it does speak for itself, but it was written originally in Greek, and that is where one must go for a careful examination. My time is short, but the Greek verbs used suggest a different interpretation than you think. The use of present participles and the perfect tense strongly suggest something like the following reading.

"Truly, truly, I am saying to you, he that is hearing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) and is believing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) on Him that sent Me, is not presently under condemnation, but is presently passed from death to life."

So, even though I rather strongly suspect you will reject it, a careful study of the Greek reveals that this verse connects a current state of life to a current state of hearing/belief. This verse makes no promise of continued life in the case of former (not current) hearing/belief.

Click to expand...

I don't think we should be led into thinking that our salvation relies on our present works though, only our present believing. This means our assurance and confidence are built on the new covenant and not obedience to laws or any other condition. The covenant is made between Jesus and The Father and we enter into it. To be removed from the covenant would take present unbelief I.e no more faith in Jesus.

razzelflabben said:

I answered that in a previous post, if you think I need reprimanded why don't you know the answer to this question? Why did you feel the need to reprimand without reading what I said?

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I understand that it is difficult to gauge tone and context on a forum so please believe me that the tone is not to be taken as a reprimand. My tone is entirely like that of a friend trying to give some advice with good intentions.

razzelflabben said:

My issue as I already said is knowing all of God I can possibly know which is why I asked people to look at the scriptures with me and show me if I am missing something. IOW's it's a look at the truth of God with other believers so that we can grow together...apparently that is to much to ask of the OSAS crowd which actually tells us a lot if we listen to what God tells us.

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I think that is wonderful.

YouAreAwesome said:

I don't think we should be led into thinking that our salvation relies on our present works though, only our present believing. This means our assurance and confidence are built on the new covenant and not obedience to laws or any other condition. The covenant is made between Jesus and The Father and we enter into it. To be removed from the covenant would take present unbelief I.e no more faith in Jesus.

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The point is that most of the heroes of the faith initially thought in terms of temporal blessings, personal safety, increasing the size of their herds, having a son, whilst God blessed them with spiritual goals in mind (it's amusing sometimes to read the parties talking past each other!).

As their relationship with God increased, awareness of God's concern for humanity increased too, until their goals became the same as God's goals. Abraham agreed to the demand for the sacrifice of Isaac, believing it would bless the world. Paul had himself baptised for death, so that he could serve God better, towards a better resurrection, ekanastasis, an out-resurrection so that he could share in Christ's suffering and death, and compete what remained of His afflictions, with more people being benefited from his acquiring a sin bearing role.

We know that progressive revelation is a term used in theology to describe fuller revelation over time in history, but I believe there is also a progressive revelation in each believer's life: some respond well to the increased requirement, others fall away even with the slightest of persecutions...

Wordkeeper said:

The point is that salvation is contingent on remaining faithful. It could be a weak analogy, but say a person is driven by love of fellow human beings to be an orderly/nurse. He saves many lives through his work and finds it that He has the potential to save even more by studying to be a doctor. You could say his salvation, approval, is now conditional on him being obedient to upgrade his form of service.

This quote, I think, encapsulates that idea:

Ding Ding wrote:

Quote
I agree it does speak for itself, but it was written originally in Greek, and that is where one must go for a careful examination. My time is short, but the Greek verbs used suggest a different interpretation than you think. The use of present participles and the perfect tense strongly suggest something like the following reading.

"Truly, truly, I am saying to you, he that is hearing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) and is believing (in a present, active, ongoing sense) on Him that sent Me, is not presently under condemnation, but is presently passed from death to life."

So, even though I rather strongly suspect you will reject it, a careful study of the Greek reveals that this verse connects a current state of life to a current state of hearing/belief. This verse makes no promise of continued life in the case of former (not current) hearing/belief.

Click to expand...

YouAreAwesome said:

I don't think we should be led into thinking that our salvation relies on our present works though, only our present believing. This means our assurance and confidence are built on the new covenant and not obedience to laws or any other condition. The covenant is made between Jesus and The Father and we enter into it. To be removed from the covenant would take present unbelief I.e no more faith in Jesus.

Click to expand...

Hello YouAreAwesome,

I'm going to kind of disagree with you here. This gets into the question of what do we mean by the word 'faith'. However much some may not like it, or may try to avoid it, Jesus said that a tree will be known by its fruit. A thorough study of the scriptures will reveal that we cannot speak of 'faith' without also speaking of actions/behavior. There are so many scriptures that address this, but here are a few.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Matthew 25:31-46 (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats) ...Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ ... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

Romans 2:5-10 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor. 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal. 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph. 5:5-7 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

I submit the above as evidence that a saving 'faith' in Christ cannot be divorced from right behavior. (And a recent discussion centered on the term "partake" and how it is used in the Book of Hebrews; I suggest taking a hint from how that word is used here. To partake is to be a part of, and as the verse above suggests, those who partake in an evil lifestyle will bear the consequences, therefore do not be deceived into thinking that your behavior has no bearing upon salvation and eternal life.)

Okay, I have a question for all the OSASers who agree with aiki's translation of Heb. 6 remember my interest is only to understand and know God more each day.....
Heb. 6:4-6..(NIV) ."it is impossible...and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Now, again, just as a reminder this is scripture and not my own words and for the question we are allowing aiki's interpretation as our premise and I am asking a question based on that premise nothing more or less so that anyone wanting to make it into something it isn't will be pointed back to this paragraph.

If the enlightened that are tasting the heavenly gift and the goodness of God and the power thereof and are partaking of the HS are the "goats" or those that are "playing the game" "going thought he motions" what ever you want to call them, the "tares" that being those without a true relationship with God where is the passage that tells us that they cannot be forgiven if they stop "playing the game" and instead want to repent and be forgiven? IOW's according to the text, they cannot fall away that would mean they would no longer be "playing the game" but instead would leave the church and all the things listen they partake in and that if they do, they cannot return (that would be to the church and all the things they were participating in previous) so they couldn't according to this passage come back to church and be part of the group or to be brought back to repentance. If they can't repent then they can't be forgiven. So please tell me where in scripture it says that "playing the game" being a "goat", "going through the motions" being a "tare" is an unforgivable sin that results in being excommunicated from the church if they wake up and decide to be a true believer?

Thanks, I'm anxious to see this passage so that I can understand God even better today than I did yesterday. God's words not mine....no saltiness and hostility please.

razzelflabben said:

Okay, I have a question for all the OSASers who agree with aiki's translation of Heb. 6 remember my interest is only to understand and know God more each day.....
Heb. 6:4-6..(NIV) ."it is impossible...and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

...

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I can weigh in, if you like, on Hebrews 6:4-6, but my perspective would not align with an OSAS position.