To Make Heaven

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks. This is wonderful and Inspirational. But you said, one can be saved by Grace and also that its a gift. Gift is an act of love, so once you like Jesus and accept that gift either openly or secretly (for the fear of those around you) then we are qualified for heaven.

It is a gift, a gift which is yours in Christ, freely. If you believe, then the gift is yours already.
If you do believe, then you can be confident of God's promises in the Gospel. The next step would be to receive Baptism, if you've never been baptized before that is. Traditional churches usually offer a period of instruction for new, adult converts, which lasts for a few months to a year, at the end of which is Baptism (usually on Easter Sunday). That would be the correct course of action at this point; but if all you are wanting to know is if you can have hope in Christ for salvation, then the answer is absolutely, and unquestioningly, yes.

If your hope is found in Christ, then you are Christ's, and your salvation is in His capable hands.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ScottA]

Thanks for your insight but I am referring to the Heaven after death (Place/ Location/Destination)

So am I.

 

[Butch5]

So Heaven is not REAL?

I didn't say that. I said no one goes there. Christians don't go to Heaven when they die. You won't find that taught in the Bible.

 

[Grafted In]

I believe Butch5 believes in a doctrine called "soul sleep", which teaches that at death there is exists no consciousness until the resurrection of the dead.

This isn't what most Christians believe, as most Christians believe that there is a conscious existence between death and the resurrection.
-CryptoLutheran

I think the idea that we are not aware of anything between death and the resurrection has some merit.
Think of it this way, if you will: If we go directly into the presence of The Lord at the moment of death, and since there is very little said about it in Scripture as you pointed out, wouldn't dying and being aware of nothing until resurrected be much the same.
If a friend called and said he'd be over to see you in an hour and you fall asleep as soon as you hang up the phone, that hour would not exist for you. He'd knock on the door in a matter of seconds.
Am I making any sense ?
Whether we go directly into the presence Jesus or "sleep" for, say 1,000 years and go directly into the presence of Jesus would be no different. Either way we'd be in His presence in the twinkling of an eye.

FYI, I do not consider this to be Scriptural Truth, but a posibility I consider since I do not know.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think the idea that we are not aware of anything between death and the resurrection has some merit.
Think of it this way, if you will: If we go directly into the presence of The Lord at the moment of death, and since there is very little said about it in Scripture as you pointed out, wouldn't dying and being aware of nothing until resurrected be much the same.
If a friend called and said he'd be over to see you in an hour and you fall asleep as soon as you hang up the phone, that hour would not exist for you. He'd knock on the door in a matter of seconds.
Am I making any sense ?
Whether we go directly into the presence Jesus or "sleep" for, say 1,000 years and go directly into the presence of Jesus would be no different. Either way we'd be in His presence in the twinkling of an eye.

FYI, I do not consider this to be Scriptural Truth, but a posibility I consider since I do not know.

Possibly, my major issue with this idea is that Scripture speaks as though the saints and martyrs are before the throne of God, and quite aware of what's going on; we see this depicted in the Apocalypse where those before God's throne pray asking how long will God withhold His judgment upon the earth. And while I don't think the Apocalypse should be taken very literally, I think it's at least enough to suggest the saints who have come before us, being in the Lord's presence, are conscious and praying for us--this is also the historic belief of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Butch5]

I don't use the term soul sleep because I've heard too many different definitions of it. ViaCrucis is correct. I believe the dead are dead until the resurrection. I don't believe that anyone goes to Heaven at any time. I believe this is what the Scriptures teach. While there are some passages that seem to suggest the dead are alive, I believe a close examination reveals that those passages need not be understood that way. I've looked at all of those passages and they can be understood within the doctrinal position I hold. However, there are pasages that indicate that the dead are dead and I see no other way to understand them, thus my position.

 

[David Rhodes]

I didn't say that. I said no one goes there. Christians don't go to Heaven when they die. You won't find that taught in the Bible.

Still not clear. Please more explanation about heaven.

 

[David Rhodes]

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. (12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Not rejecting Jesus, but method of getting to heaven is the concern here. How?

Not good enough.

You said not "good enough". So can one make it good enough?

 

[David Rhodes]

Our salvation is not found in our ability to be righteous, because we can't be righteous, not in this life. The Law condemns us in our works, which is why St. Paul says, "What the law was powerless to do because of sin, God has done by sending His Son", the Apostle also says, "there is a righteousness apart from the Law, through faith".

What saves us is the grace of God in Christ, "For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith--and this is not of yourselves, this is the gift of God--not by works, lest anyone should boast." It is not by our efforts, but God's kindness toward us in Jesus, rescuing us by His death and resurrection; and the righteousness we receive apart from the Law, through faith, is the alien righteousness of Jesus given to us as God's gracious gift. By this righteousness (not ours, but Christ's) we are freely justified, and by the promises of the Gospel in Christ we, by faith, have hope of eternal life and salvation as we look forward to the future resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come; this is ours now as a promise, through faith, it is the reality which comes in the future at Christ's glorious return.

Our place with God is found in Christ, and only in Christ. It is Christ who reconciles us to God, makes us right with God, and in Whom, by the Holy Spirit, that we have adoption as children of God the Father.

When we are born again in the waters of Holy Baptism we are heirs of all God's promises which are attached to it: that we have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), are united to Christ in His death and resurrection (Romans 6:2-10), clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and saved (1 Peter 3:21).

All of this is not about "going to heaven", because it's not about some place called "heaven"; it's about our reconciliation to God in Jesus Christ, and being found in Christ, having a place in the renewal of all creation in the age to come, "a new heavens and a new earth".

This is the work of God, not ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your write-up. You talked about reconciliation, guessed reconciliation towards God you mean? If that is correct. What caused separation? and what method to take to reconcile?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for your write-up. You talked about reconciliation, guessed reconciliation towards God you mean? If that is correct. What caused separation? and what method to take to reconcile?

We are out of communion, separated, from God because of sin.

In Lutheran thought human beings are, because of the Fall (mentioned in Genesis ch. 3) human beings have inherited Adam's sinful disposition, this is usually known as Original Sin. That is, we are fundamentally broken, injured, wrongly bent at the very core of our human personhood. We are so wrongly bent and broken that not only do we sin, but we prefer sin, and we have animosity toward God. We don't even want anything to do with Him. So because of this we are estranged from God, and our relationships with even our fellow human beings, and with the rest of God's creation is out of whack.

God, in Jesus, is making everything right. That's how we are reconciled. God in becoming human takes our humanity upon Himself in order to restore it, to heal it, to make it right again; in dying Christ is united even in our mortality and death; in rising from the dead Christ overcomes death, has destroyed the power of sin, has defeated the devil, defeated hell, and overcome the world; and in Him and by Him there is new creation. Our estrangement from God is ended, because God takes hold of us, in Christ, adopting us as children; He gives us the Holy Spirit, He clothes us with Christ's own righteousness thereby declaring and making us just, and promises us that we will, at Christ's return, be raised up from the dead even as Jesus was raised up from the dead. So even we ourselves, in our body, will triumph over death by the power of God in Jesus Christ. And we will, then, share in the future world when God renews all of creation, all things, the heavens and the earth, and all shall be as it was always meant to be.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[David Rhodes]

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. (12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Jesus is the way. How can one follow and know he is following the right way? Any check list?

 

[Emmy]

Dear David Rhodes. Being born again is going to Heaven, being born again is to be a different person, be as God wants us to be. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. ( our neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friend and not friend) Matthew 7: 7-10: tells us: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share
all love and joy with our neighbour. God will see our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will led us all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY. Let us all remember that God wants our love, freely given and conditions made. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring, be kind and always friendly.
I say this with love, David. greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[juvenissun]

You said not "good enough". So can one make it good enough?

Of course. That is why I ask you how do you love God.

 

[Butch5]

Still not clear. Please more explanation about heaven.

I'm not sure what you mean by more explanation about Heaven. People don't go there. There is nowhere in the Bible that we read that people go to Heaven when they die. The idea of ascending into the heavens comes from Greek philosophy.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I'm not sure what you mean by more explanation about Heaven. People don't go there. There is nowhere in the Bible that we read that people go to Heaven when they die. The idea of ascending into the heavens comes from Greek philosophy.

he may be asking you to substantiate your position biblically.

 

[Butch5]

he may be asking you to substantiate your position biblically.

You can't prove a negative. All I could do is post the entire Bible and say see there's nothing here. The presupposition in the OP is that one goes to Heaven. That would put the onus on the OP to prove that people go to Heaven. However, as I said, there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that people go to Heaven when the die.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You can't prove a negative. All I could do is post the entire Bible and say see there's nothing here. The presupposition in the OP is that one goes to Heaven. That would put the onus on the OP to prove that people go to Heaven. However, as I said, there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that people go to Heaven when the die.

you said that the bible does not say that anyone goes to heaven. we're asking you to substantiate that claim biblically.

 

[Butch5]

you said that the bible does not say that anyone goes to heaven. we're asking you to substantiate that claim biblically.

I understand that. As I said you can't prove a negative. One has to prove that the Bible does teach that people go to Heaven. That can't be done. Since that can't be done it can be said that the Bible doesn't teach that people go to Heaven.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I understand that. As I said you can't prove a negative. One has to prove that the Bible does teach that people go to Heaven. That can't be done. Since that can't be done it can be said that the Bible doesn't teach that people go to Heaven.

accept you made a positive claim that through your study of scripture in the verses pertaining to the subject you found that it does not teach that people go to heaven. you're being asked to substantiate that claim.

 

[Butch5]

accept you made a positive claim that through your study of scripture in the verses pertaining to the subject you found that it does not teach that people go to heaven. you're being asked to substantiate that claim.

Am I not being clear? You cannot prove a negative. The OP presupposed going to Heaven. That presupposition was not proven or established, it was just assumed. Because there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that people go to Heaven it can be said that they don't.