to deep6sleep

[dandymandy]

I don't want to hijack this thread and make this a pity party for myself

That thread is moving pretty lathargically, if you ask me. In fact this whole unequally yoked sub-forum slow---Havana16 was disappointed that it had so few posts.

But what the heck, let's start a new thread.....

Now, the whole premise of Christian Forums is for ordinary people to lend each other mutual support. There are other men and women in your predicament. It provides some comfort to find you are not alone, if nothing else. Maybe your situation will help somebody who is simply reading without posting.

You are right, being fanatical about a cause can certainly destroy a marriage. The difference is her cause has a reference work (bible) that can be used to do whatever she wants, if she finds the quotes that suit her. And to top that off, those words aren't hers, they are "the word of God". If she wants to compell me to believe, behave or do something that she deems right, all she has to do is find a scriptural passage, quote it and
use/distort it any way she wants in order to state her case. That in itself makes her "cause" more destructive than some political or enviromental issue, IMHO.

What is different is that she is invoking the Word of God which just happens to matter to you. If you were a non-believer, it wouldn't have the power upon you and be so hurtful. If you cared about animals, it would only make it more difficult for you if she became a fanatic with sheltering cats

But let's face it: is she following the Word of God? Actually? Not in my book she isn't. She is abusing the Word of God in my opinion. She is on no more solid ground than if she were running a cat shelter. There. I've said it. You can agree. You can agree silently in your own mind. You can disagree. Just my opinion for you to mull over.

There is a passage in 1 Corinthians 14 (I think) I'm sure of the book but not the chapter. In it it says the unbeliving spouse married to a Christian is blessed. It is a very hopeful passage for me.

Your are right, there is no mutual respect. But in her world it doesn't matter. I don't believe as she, I am damned and am the enemy. How I lead my life is of no consequence. I accompany her to her church. I support her financially with a very good income and retirement. She was an at home mom and I was home a lot to take care of our kids. I don't steal, murder, bear false witness, lie, commit adultery, I do swear occasionally, covet my neighbors goods, make and worship idols, I honor my parents,. She acknowledges these things, but it makes no difference in her behavior towards me, because if I am not born again, I am immoral, no matter how I act or what I do. Period.

Unless you are Roman Catholic, all the good works you perform do not count as points toward Salvation. In the Protestant camp it's faith and faith alone that gets you saved.

Because you love God is why you strive to be Godly. In as tough a situation as you are, you need to have your feet solidly on the ground with God. Renew your request for Salvation. Keep Christ in your life as your Saviour. ...and you are set for the hereafter. There is no fine print on Christ's Sacrifice.

As far as counseling. I went for 6 years alone. She refused after the first session, because the counselor held her responsible for her disrespectful behavior. She said wouldn't go because the counselor wasn't a "christian" counselor. We went to a christian counselor of her choice. He said the same thing and after a few sessions she quit again.

She is a fanatic to be sure. The world to her is always black and white, no inbetween. Mind you, she was not always like this. The first 15 years of our marriage was wonderful. Her conversion, and then distortion of how a "true Christian" should live has put an unbelievable strain on what was once a very good marriage. If children were not involved, I would most likely have parted ways. Thankfully, they have turned out to be good kids, actually christians, which I supported. I don't think they are the kind of christians my wife wants, as they are not hard core fundamentalists, but just the same, they live a christlike life and are very moral, kind and compassionate.

The Christian faith is a powerful faith and has the potential to become malignant in some individuals and make them quite dangerous. Those who bomb abortion clinics generally think they are doing so in the Name of God.

For my part, I have yet to find a Christian feloowship in my town. Either I am unacceptable to them or they are unacceptable to me. I find it cause for my personal concern.

A secular counsellor might not consider your wife mentally ill but likely to say she has mental health issues. I commend and admire you for honouring your vows to remain with her in sickness and in health.

Again, I don't want this to be a thread about my situation. It is what it is, and I'm fairly happy, as things have quieted down the past few years. What has not changed is how I am viewed by my wife. Someone whom I devoted my best years to, as a good husband and father. But that means nothing unless I declare myself "born again"; and nothing that has happened in my life has hurt me as much as this.
I have gotten over this disappointment, but it dramatically changed how I view my spouse. I still love her dearly, but live my life more for me these days, and keep what she says in perspective and don't put much thought into her words towards me. Nuff said....now back on topic. Thanks for letting me rant
Deep6

A rant? Perhaps.

Also a very, very inspirational testimony for others whether they are in your situation or not. You have it all for a Christian spouse: Commitment through thick and thin. Enduring respect in the face of disrespect. Forgiveness and acceptance---that is huge.

God bless you. I am married but four months to a Hindu. May we each maintain the character and integrity thoughout our marriage that you have.

 

[deep6sleep]

Thanks for the blessing....tonight I needed it.

Ironically, spouse and I got into biblical discussion tonight...didn't go well.
I am tired and going to bed...this stuff just wears me out..

Deep6

 

[deep6sleep]

It has been a while, but the same theme came up again. I am a heathen, the enemy. Everybody who is not a fundamentalist, born again Christian will burn it hell for eternity...."It is not my standard, but God's written standard, here in the Bible," she said as she lifts her bible to show me.

I say" that's fine, but I don't believe that"......then launches into a scripturally based lecture to me on how I am wrong. Been there done that...

I basically said that you do not have mutual respect for our differences. I never complain about her committed hours to bible study and church activities (at least 20 hours a week), yet when I decide to not accompany her to church, which is rare, I get the emotional freeze out for a few days. She says she is working on that. SHE HAS BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS!! This crap will never go away, so I better just accept it and move on and not worry about it. It takes too much time and energy...

 

[havana16]

Hi deepsleep; this is mary ann I am the wife of an unbelieving husband as well as dandymandy. I am Pentecostal I can only say that I hink your wife is approaching this matter in the wrong way That is not the way Christ taught us to do Christ is loving and shows only goodness and kindness to others. She is not following the ways Christ has told us to be represenatives of His Word! I was spending alot of times in church when first saved but felt that it was wrong not to spend time with my husband no matter his spirituual state so cut back on it. I try to do the best I can amd leave the rest to God. Being fanatical about christianity is not the right way to go!

 

[kat69]

I agree 100% with Mary Ann!

Kat

Hi deepsleep; this is mary ann I am the wife of an unbelieving husband as well as dandymandy. I am Pentecostal I can only say that I hink your wife is approaching this matter in the wrong way That is not the way Christ taught us to do Christ is loving and shows only goodness and kindness to others. She is not following the ways Christ has told us to be represenatives of His Word! I was spending alot of times in church when first saved but felt that it was wrong not to spend time with my husband no matter his spirituual state so cut back on it. I try to do the best I can amd leave the rest to God. Being fanatical about christianity is not the right way to go!

 

[dandymandy]

Here is the passage I had in mind:

1 Corinthians 7

12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

---This is not for you, deep6sleep, but for your wife.....if she is to invoke the Bible, then she is bound by the entire Bible. Picking and choosing verses just to confirm a preconceived idea just isn't on.

.....and again: the confrontational approach will never win souls for Christ---whether with strangers or with husband.

I know that this is so tiresome. Just know that we here are sympathetic. Unload on this forum whenever you like....better than unloading on her.

God bless,

 

[havana16]

To true dandymandy! live what one confesses to believe!

 

[deep6sleep]

Thanks dandymandy and havana16,

I will certainly keep that reference in mind. But I have used scripture in the past to make some points on issues of disagreement. I was told "I was not in the Word" and didn't understand the bible. She was actually irate that I, as an unsaved person, was using the bible in disagreement with her position. But I will certainly tuck that chapter away and most certainly will bring it up if the time is right.

This past 6 months have been a real eye opener for me and our confrontations have shown me the extent of her personal and spiritual evolution. Maybe I was hopeful that things would get back to some semblance of a happier and less combative time in our marriage. But after 17 years of hope, her conversations with me the past 6 months have snuffed what little passion I had left. Even during the worst of times, there were instances when I could still look at her and see the woman I first married and enjoyed being with for the first 15 years of our 32 years of marriage. I see things differently now. I still do love her dearly, but that love has changed from a passionate one to a love based on loyalty and responsibility. I think that is the thing that saddens me the most, and I mourn that loss in this marriage. I find myself making living decisions based on what is best for me first and consider her second. I have never lived like that in this marriage, but after taking a back seat to own personal spiritual growth along with not having a mutual respect for our differences, I am starting to look out for myself more. In fact, the past few months, after our biblical discussions, I think to myself what the next 25 years will bring, and whether or not I want to live my remaining years under those conditions. More and more I think not. For the first time in my marriage I have thought about divorce. At the end of some "debates" I think about how nice it would be to just live alone, out in the country where it would be peaceful and quiet and not deal with this anymore. I don't like those thoughts, but I feel there will be a point of no return and I will have to act inorder to survive, both emotionally and physically. I am not sure where that point is, but I am becoming less and less concerned about the ramifications of ending this marriage.

 

[dandymandy]

I concur that you must take care of yourself, take care of your own interests. If you are going to honour your commitments, you have honour yourself. It's like putting on your own oxygen mask first when the aeroplane loses cabin pressure and then placing it upon the one who is in your care.

As to divorce, I am silent. That is your lonely, lonely decision and yours alone. Even in divorce, there is scope for loyalty and responsibility---and love.

Have you approached her pastor? Probably you have but to no avail. Is there anybody whom she respects and listens to?

A word about whether another is Saved or not. This is the example I use when the subject comes up.

Suppose you are friends with Bill. Suppose there is a Mike who is also friends with Bill. Now suppose you tell Mike that he is not friends with Bill because of whatever reason. That is disrespectful of Mike and quite understandably might cause him to become irate. And if Bill gets wind of your confrontation with Mike, he can quite understandably become irate.

Is this not true?

Now substitute Christ in place of Bill.

To tell an avowed Christian that he is a false Christian is disrepectful not only to him but is an insult to our Lord.

Whether somebody else is living up to what I think a Christian represents is neither here nor there. Christ knows who is on good terms with Him. I simply do not declare an individual or a denomination as non-Christian if either declare themselves to be.

Are you on good terms with God? If you say so, that is case closed for me.

God bless,

 

[deep6sleep]

I have talked to her pastor one on one on a couple occasions. He is in agreement with my wife on who is damned and who isn't.
In the past when discussing this with my wife, I could never get a definite answer regarding other non fundamentalists, besides myself. She was sure I was damned, but when I sighted other examples of non christians, her reply was "Only God knows what will happen to them".

Our discussion the other night discussed this. The scenario is always the same:1. She questions the foundation of my moral compass. 2. She says that because my morals are not totally based on the fundamentalists belief of the bible, I am immoral and lead a life 180 degrees of her beliefs.
3. Until I declare myself born again, no matter how I live my life, I will be an immoral being and be damned to hell for eternity.

I then asked her about orthodox Jews. She hemmed and hawwed and finally admitted that her belief is that they are condemned to hell forever.
I stated, for the 100th time, that I could not believe that a benevolent, merciful God would do that to a soul because of circumstance, upbringing, economic, cultural or geographic. She went on to say that God created all people, imprinted on their brain that a Christian God is present and the have the choice to see Him out. I was stunned to hear such a thing, as I never heard this one before. I was also informed that there is no cut and dried heaven. That just because you go to heaven doesn't mean you sit at the same level as other saved souls, and experience the presence of God in the same way or as often. I had never heard of such a thing. I did not argue. I have no desire to argue. I said that was fine if you believed that, I just am not convinced of such a thing.
My not being convinced always seems to bring out a feeling of being attacked by her, and no matter how I state it, she believes that if I am not with her, I am against her and attacking. I can't win. There is no live and let live, and this is the way if will always be.
I am believing more and more, that there are some clinical emotional/mental issues here, and I am just co-lateral damage in her dealing with whatever she is dealing with.
I think if I put this in more of the perspective that this is an emotional/mental issue, it will be easier to deal with. At least from my perspective.



What do you mean by "good terms with God". I believe I am, in terms of how I lead my life. But depending on who I talk to, they may disagree.
I am willing to stand before the Man, and go over my life and let Him be the judge, not someone else. If that is being on good terms with God, then I just may be.

 

[dandymandy]

I have talked to her pastor one on one on a couple occasions. He is in agreement with my wife on who is damned and who isn't.

Ouch. Then you're screwed. Sounds like a pretty malignant congregation to me.

I am believing more and more, that there are some clinical emotional/mental issues here, and I am just co-lateral damage in her dealing with whatever she is dealing with.
I think if I put this in more of the perspective that this is an emotional/mental issue, it will be easier to deal with. At least from my perspective.

I was coming to this conclusion myself from what you have written. I think there is ample foundation to consider this a mental health matter.

And it will help you to understand that you are dealing with an illness.

What do you mean by "good terms with God". I believe I am, in terms of how I lead my life. But depending on who I talk to, they may disagree.
I am willing to stand before the Man, and go over my life and let Him be the judge, not someone else. If that is being on good terms with God, then I just may be.

My personal belief is that if you sincerely submit to Christ and ask to be Saved, then you will be Saved. Period. There is no fine print on Christ's gift to us.

You live a life with a moral compass for your own reasons. We all have our own reasons. But I don't think moral living gets a body into heaven. That is my belief.

For a long time, I made the calculation that Morality led to happiness; that immorality led to unhappiness. Along the way, a fellow Christian convinced me that God built virtue into each and every one of us. I also ask myself how I can please God because he has given me a "pre-Salvation" here on earth. I did not have a happy childhood. Upon accepting baptism, I have never been happier. I have a lot of gratitude toward God.

From what you say, it sounds to me like you're a Christian but at the end of the day, only you know whether you actually are. There are too many self-appointed deputy smiters going around, deciding who is on good terms with Christ and who is not.

God bless,

 

[havana16]

Deepsleep, what denomination church does your wife go to? I find it shocking that a Pastor would condemm someone like that. As a Christian I know that people who do not believe in Christ will have to answer someday for their disbelief but it is wrong just to condemm someone Only God holds that right. Deepsleep are you a believer?

 

[deep6sleep]

Deepsleep, what denomination church does your wife go to? I find it shocking that a Pastor would condemm someone like that. As a Christian I know that people who do not believe in Christ will have to answer someday for their disbelief but it is wrong just to condemm someone Only God holds that right. Deepsleep are you a believer?

Non denominational fundamentalist bible church. The pastor hesitated when I presented the question to him, but in the end he said "all that do not come to Christ are damned to hell, no matter what the circumstance", myself included if I did not declare myself born again.

I was raised very strict Roman Catholic, but by age 22 questioned some of the absolutes within the church, mortal sin, purgatory and limbo. I was taught that if you weren't Catholic you were damned to hell aslo. I got fed up with the infighting amoung christian faiths claiming to have the one and only truth, and settled on an informal Deism, and to live my life morally without the community of a church.

If you are asking if I think the path to eternal salvation is only thru Christ, then no I am not a believer. At this point I am just a human being trying to live a Christlike life.....nothing more, nothing less.

 

[havana16]

Have you ever thought about going to see a Christian counselor to help you sort this out? I feel for you and wish I could offer you a soluution.....but do not have the right answers for you

 

[dandymandy]

.....and settled on an informal Deism, and to live my life morally without the community of a church.

If you are asking if I think the path to eternal salvation is only thru Christ, then no I am not a believer. At this point I am just a human being trying to live a Christlike life.....nothing more, nothing less.

So you're not a believer by some people's definition. You and I might have different beliefs but you have my respect.

I don't know whether you are Saved or not. You know what? This is between you and God, not between you and me. My denomination came into being because an English king divorced his wife so he could marry another---pretty flimsy underpinnings by anybody's standard.

God bless,

 

[deep6sleep]

Have you ever thought about going to see a Christian counselor to help you sort this out? I feel for you and wish I could offer you a soluution.....but do not have the right answers for you

We did go to a Christian counselor of her choice. She didn't like many of the things she heard from him, and he has a impeccable reputation in the Christian community and shrink community. She was not enthusiastic about going back after he told her to tone things down and have mutual respect for each others beliefs even though we may disagree. I suggested she go by herself to sort some things out, but it never happened.

In her mind this is my fault, as I am the heathen. I have free choice to join her, but refuse because I am "pridefull". My wife had/has a very low self esteem. Fundamental Christianity really empowered her. It is how she totally defines herself, IMHO. Now, if you are not with her, you are against her, end of story.

 

[havana16]

Deepslep I meant some private counseling for you to help you sort things out. She has choosen not to listen tothe advice givven but it seems you are the only one suffering.

 

[deep6sleep]

I did single counseling for 6 years and it helped. It helped me understand that this is an emotional/self esteem issue. Had my last session last year. I decided I was just going to live my life and let the chips fall where they may. Even though I can determine the reason for behavior, it doesn't change the day to day stress. After this length of time dealing with this, I don't think things will change. I am more focused on my health and well being, and sometimes that grates my wife, as I used to be quite flexible regarding her spiritual schedule. No more...

Deep6sleep

 

[havana16]

What about a seperation from each other for awhile? maybe she would miss you.

 

[dandymandy]

What about a seperation from each other for awhile? maybe she would miss you.

Deep6sleep---

This is not something to do lightly but if you're considering divorce, then desperate measures can be justified for the sake of saving the marriage. Separation has its hazards and should be considered a last-ditch attempt.

You have to decide what is best.

God bless,