To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Guojing said:

God gave Paul signs and wonders to authenticate to the other apostles that he was a legitimate apostle like them, and that the gospel he was preaching to the gentiles was legitimate.

If you recall Acts 15

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

He further confirmed that signs and wonders were necessary to verify apostleship in 2 Corinthians 12:12. Jews always required a sign (1 Cor 1:22).

But come to the end of his ministry, Paul indicated that those signs have ceased, even for him. In the letters to Timothy, that is where the advice of wine drinking came in.

Click to expand...

Spot on !

Guojing said:

God gave Paul signs and wonders to authenticate to the other apostles that he was a legitimate apostle like them, and that the gospel he was preaching to the gentiles was legitimate.

If you recall Acts 15

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

He further confirmed that signs and wonders were necessary to verify apostleship in 2 Corinthians 12:12. Jews always required a sign (1 Cor 1:22).

But come to the end of his ministry, Paul indicated that those signs have ceased, even for him. In the letters to Timothy, that is where the advice of wine drinking came in.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I don't agree with any of that.
I need to quote this again and point out WHY Paul used "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power..." See bold below. Nothing about proving himself to the Apostle through signs and wonders.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks, but I don't agree with any of that.
I need to quote this again and point out WHY Paul used "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power..." See bold below. Nothing about proving himself to the Apostle through signs and wonders.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Click to expand...

Okay, let me examine the passage that you used.

Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles. He demonstrated to the gentiles that his apostleship was legitimate, because, as that passage stated, it came with signs and wonders.

So for the gentiles who believed him in Corinth, yes they can use those as proof that God was sending Paul to them, and that the gospel of grace he was preaching to them is legitimate for them to place their faith in.

But you are trying to use that passage to imply that those gentile believers can thus also be like Paul and also demonstrate signs and wonders to other people.

You do agree that is not what the passage you used is saying, correct? You are trying to read that into the passage.

Guojing said:

But you are trying to use that passage to imply that those gentile believers can thus also be like Paul and also demonstrate signs and wonders to other people.

You do agree that is not what the passage you used is saying, correct? You are trying to read that into the passage.

Click to expand...

You can't be serious.
Are you not familiar with 1 Corinthians twelve and fourteen?

1 Corinthians 12:7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 12:31
Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. ...

1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Saint Steven said:

You can't be serious.
Are you not familiar with 1 Corinthians twelve and fourteen?

1 Corinthians 12:7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 12:31
Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. ...

1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Click to expand...

the least of the gifts (tongues) ceased after 1 cor was written

next...........................

Jesus is YHWH said:

the least of the gifts (tongues) ceased after 1 cor was written

next...........................

Click to expand...

How did you come to that misguided conclusion?

Saint Steven said:

How did you come to that misguided conclusion?

Click to expand...

where is tongues mentioned in any letter after 1 cor ?

its time to face the facts

next......................

Saint Steven said:

You can't be serious.
Are you not familiar with 1 Corinthians twelve and fourteen?

1 Corinthians 12:7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 12:31
Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. ...

1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Click to expand...

So now you are invoking other passages from Scripture, but before I go thru them with you, do you agree with my point about that particular passage, and that you are reading into that?

Jesus is YHWH said:

ad hominem

Definition of ad hominem
(Entry 1 of 2)

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellectan ad hominem argument
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions mademade an ad hominem personal attack on his rival

your responses to me say much more about your arguments/character

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

My response was aimed directly at your comment, not yourself, but if you are offended by the word "childish" then I withdraw it.
"hope this helps!!!!"

Nevertheless, your comments are still very much ill thought out, and you obviously didn't take them to their logical conclusion, so I repeat what I said before.-

"If you insist on that approach you then need to go through Paul's writing and delete anything that isn't confirmed exactly by his other writings.

Perhaps he should have photocopied one letter and sent it to very church."

Jesus is YHWH said:

where is tongues mentioned in any letter after 1 cor ?

its time to face the facts

next......................

Click to expand...

Are you assuming that the books in the NT are ordered by writing date? If so, that's not true.

Besides the manifestations of the Spirit were a part of the church after Pentecost. There was no need to "mention" them at all. Where's the news?

There is historical evidence in the early church long after the Corinthian letters.

Evidence of Speaking in Tongues in the Early Church | Christian Assemblies International

Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…

A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4

A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46

A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6

A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all." 1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Guojing said:

So now you are invoking other passages from Scripture, but before I go thru them with you, do you agree with my point about that particular passage, and that you are reading into that?

Click to expand...

No, I don't agree. Which I already stated.
Paul gave the reason for the "demonstration of the Spirit’s power", and it wasn't to prove his Apostleship. See bold text below.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Saint Steven said:

No, I don't agree. Which I already stated.
Paul gave the reason for the "demonstration of the Spirit’s power", and it wasn't to prove his Apostleship. See bold text below.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Click to expand...

So basically you are telling me that, you interpret this passage as, since Paul used signs and wonders to reassure the gentiles in Corinth that his gospel is correct, it means we could also expect to be able to use signs and wonders to reassure the world of unbelievers now, that they should believe the same gospel too?

Is that the correct understanding of your position?

Guojing said:

So basically you are telling me that, you interpret this passage as, since Paul used signs and wonders to reassure the gentiles in Corinth that his gospel is correct, it means we could also expect to be able to use signs and wonders to reassure the world of unbelievers now, that they should believe the same gospel too?

Is that the correct understanding of your position?

Click to expand...

It is a powerful, but neglected tool.
Are you familiar with the Kevin Dedmon Treasure Hunt?

Imagine being approached by a complete stranger at a coffee shop that said they were on a treasure hunt. They showed you a slip of paper that listed the location and a description of you and something that you needed prayer for. Like a specific malady or injury. They explained that they were part of a church group reaching out to the community. How likely would you be to hearing what that person had to say, and getting prayer for your situation?

Would that be more powerful, or less powerful than a presentation of the gospel that they have heard before and likely rejected?

2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. ...

Saint Steven said:

It is a powerful, but neglected tool.
Are you familiar with the Kevin Dedmon Treasure Hunt?

Imagine being approached by a complete stranger at a coffee shop that said they were on a treasure hunt. They showed you a slip of paper that listed the location and a description of you and something that you needed prayer for. Like a specific malady or injury. They explained that they were part of a church group reaching out to the community. How likely would you be to hearing what that person had to say, and getting prayer for your situation?

Would that be more powerful, or less powerful than a presentation of the gospel that they have heard before and likely rejected?

2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. ...

Click to expand...

I see, alright then.

Guojing said:

I see, alright then.

Click to expand...

Wow.
I expected a rebuttal.
Yes, I believe that the God of miracles is still at work today.
The same God that parted the Red Sea, consumed Elijah's sacrifice -- stones and all, brought the walls of Jericho down, made ax heads float, raised the dead and healed every disease; is still alive and well.

1 Corinthians 14:24-25
But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Saint Steven said:

Wow.
I expected a rebuttal.
Yes, I believe that the God of miracles is still at work today.
The same God that parted the Red Sea, consumed Elijah's sacrifice -- stones and all, brought the walls of Jericho down, made ax heads float, raised the dead and healed every disease; is still alive and well.

1 Corinthians 14:24-25
But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Click to expand...

Well, most people already made up their mind about the doctrine they hold already, so I don't see any point in rebutting.

My objective is more to understand how people form their doctrine.

Guojing said:

I see, alright then.

Click to expand...

Do you stand as an enemy against this pioneering work to re-establish what has been lost? Holding rather to a fleshly religion without the power of God? The religion that hopes to argue humankind into faith through Christian apologetics? (persuasive words - 1 Corinthians 2:3-5) The religion that has to resort to fear tactics (the threat of hell) to "win" converts.

Guojing said:

My objective is more to understand how people form their doctrine.

Click to expand...

I appreciate that. An approach rarely seen on the forum.
Have I adequately explained how I arrived at my doctrine? (there is a story)
I am happy to answer any questions you have about that. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:

I appreciate that. An approach rarely seen on the forum.
Have I adequately explained how I arrived at my doctrine? (there is a story)
I am happy to answer any questions you have about that. Thanks.

Click to expand...

I have a sense that you worship at a word of faith church, or learn that doctrine from bethel church.

I Guess You might have read bill johnson book heaven on earth?