To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

ISteveB said:

Well.... as one of the first incidents of a God-moment in my life was a miraculous healing, testified to by the medical doctor who did the surgery on my throat, I'm going to say--
God's been doing what God does for millennia, through to today.

So, is that continuationism?

I'm also a stage four metastatic melanoma cancer survivor, whose doctors have all stated, repeatedly, for over 2 decades, that I am a walking miracle.

I recently read a couple of books about what God is doing around the continent of Asia, and Muslim countries, which describe God raising the dead, convincing people in miraculous ways of his reality, healings, etc....

So... not once have I ever seen anything that would convince me that God is not doing what God has explicitly stated he would do for those who believe him.

After all, according to Malachi 3:6,God never changes. And according to Hebrews 13:8, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Considering that Hebrews was written in the middle of the first century CE, it seems that yesterday and today was a long time ago and forever includes the past 1950+/- years, into the eternal future.

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God can and still heals today, no cessationonist will deny that, as far as I know.

What we believe is that such miracles are no longer promised to all believers in the bible. God had mercy on you and cure you of your disease.

Another may have prayed in faith, but did not get the miracle. There is nothing that distinguished them from you.

The classic example, which I think most would have heard by now, is #WakeupOlive from Bethel, who wrongly used John 11:25-26

JohnT said:

I lost all of the small bit of respect that i may have had for the man when he plagiarized a book originally written by AB Simpson, and reprinted it under his name as if he was the author.

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hagin ?

SaintCody777 said:

1 Corinthians 13 and 14, which are used for Cessationalits were mostly for Paul rebuking the Corinthians that just because they can speak in tongues that they are holier than thou art. For instance, the Apostolic/Oneness Pentecostals, who believe that if you're saved you will speak in tongues, falls right into that category. But obviously, unlike the Corinthians, the Apostolic Pentecostals do a lot better in holy living, though it's through a rigid, one-size-fits-all "holiness code."
Another extreme measure going in a different direction, are these independent Pentecostal churches, like the Follower's of Christ/Kissers in the Pacific Northwest, and even a few non-Pentecostal churches, like the Church of God (Restoration) that emphasize faith healing waaaaay to far, to the point that going to doctors, hospitals, or taking medicine either shows that you don't really have faith, or even a sin, or a coward. That teaching has resulted in unneeded deaths or disabilities from illnesses or injuries that, if treated promptly and right away with medical treatment, full recovery is possible or the norm.
On the opposite extreme end of the pendelum, Pensecola Christian College, an Independent Fundie Baptist-affiliated (IFB is cessationalaist) college, takes cessationalism as far as actually forbidding it's students from speaking in tongues, which flies in the face of 1 Corinthians 14:39. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Furthermore in 1 Corinthians 14:1-12, Paul was giving some examples on how to properly use the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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I actually admire Pentecostals for their taking of holiness seriously. This is something that is lacking in most of Christianity these days. Are all Pentecostals perfect? By no means. But the point is that if you were to read the New Testament, our thinking should not be that we can sin and still be saved, but our thinking should be that we are to live holy unto the Lord. For what do you make of Hebrews 12:14 that says that we are to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord? For me: There is no point of being a Christian if one does not live holy unto the Lord. One is either a follower of Jesus, or they are not. Jesus said for us to pick up our cross, and not His cross. Christians should be living holy. For have you not read? “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:16). So the whole “holier than thou art” claim is false. So when Christians say something like this, I actually see such a claim as an attack upon Christians who seek to truly follow Jesus. For did Jesus advocate us to live holy or to sin?

As for Pentecostalism: Well, my position on Pentecostalism is that Scripture tells me one thing, and I have friends who are Pentecostal, so I am sympathetic and open to being wrong and yet on the other hand, I know there are tons of Scripture that keeps leaning heavily towards Cessationism. From a Scriptural standpoint (from my perspective): Pentecostals appear to take snippets of Scripture out of context to justify the continuation of the gifts. While I could be wrong about my interpretation, I have not seen any group today operating exactly like what we see in Scripture with the early church. We even see Paul later in his life appearing to not heal like he once did. It appears the sign gifts were temporary (Which is a pattern we see with all the miracles in the Bible). We see the great three miracle workers in the Bible are all followed by a time of no great miracles. Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. Then again, I could be wrong. For me: The most important thing is not focusing on the gifts, but it is focusing on God's grace, and living for the Lord. Life is too short to waste time on something that is not as important as loving God and loving others.

It did not cost God anything to do miracles. But it cost God dearly when He sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins. This is because God loves us so much. This love makes us want to love Him and others in return. But many get caught up on the misuse of those gifts today like the Corinthians once did.

Guojing said:

What we believe is that such miracles are no longer promised to all believers in the bible.

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Continuationists say that 100 percent of the people we DON'T pray for DON'T get healed.
What percentage makes it worthwhile?

If one in a hundred received a healing on the spot, would you continue to do it?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Are we not commanded to pray for the sick whether they receive a healing or not?

Saint Steven said:

Continuationists say that 100 percent of the people we DON'T pray for DON'T get healed.
What percentage makes it worthwhile?

If one in a hundred received a healing on the spot, would you continue to do it?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Are we not commanded to pray for the sick whether they receive a healing or not?

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Are you ready to state your Romans reference to sign and wonders already?

What is your scripture from, for your final point?

Guojing said:

Firstly, the rapture of the Body of Christ is a secret that was first revealed by the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51). Christ knew about it of course during the 4 gospels time period, but he did not reveal that secret during his first coming on Earth.

More importantly, you originally said my point is utter rubbish and that Romans is popularly used by preachers to teach us signs and wonders are still here today.

Yet, when I ask you directly which part of Romans they use to do that, you don't want to answer?

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Surely you must have read Romans? If so, you would already know Paul teaches about the gifts in it.

Romans12v1Therefore I exhort you, brothers, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy to God, well-pleasing, which is your reasonable service. 2And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind, for you to prove what is the good and well-pleasing and perfect will of God.

3For through the grace having been given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to be high-minded above what it behooves you to think, but to think so as to be sober-minded, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5so we, the many, are one body in Christ; and individually members one of another.

6And we are having different gifts according to the grace having been given to us: if prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith; 7or service, in the service; or teaching, in the teaching; 8or exhorting, in the exhortation; giving, in generosity; leading, in diligence; showing mercy, in cheerfulness.

Guojing said:

Well, you realized they also conveniently ignore these passages from the 4 gospels?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

You realized that healing, raising dead, casting out demons are all linked to the gospel of the kingdom, which is not meant for Gentiles, but for the House of Israel, during Jesus earthly ministry?

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That was before the final rejection of Jesus by the Jewish leaders.
After the resurrection, Jesus unleashed them with the same calling (including healing etc) on the whole world, and that melds entirely with what Paul teaches in Romans.

Mark16v15And He said to them, “Having gone into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. 16The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those having believed: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18and with their hands they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it shall never hurt them; they will lay hands upon the sick, and they will be well.”

Guojing said:

Are you ready to state your Romans reference to sign and wonders already?

What is your scripture from, for your final point?

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Already?
Why would you limit my response to Romans?
Here's a couple. (James 5:14; Matthew 10:8)

Would you pray for the sick if 1 in 100 were healed on the spot?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Continuationists say that 100 percent of the people we DON'T pray for DON'T get healed.
What percentage makes it worthwhile?

If one in a hundred received a healing on the spot, would you continue to do it?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Are we not commanded to pray for the sick whether they receive a healing or not?

Guojing said:

The notice is that Israel the nation has fallen, as Paul explained in great details in Romans 9 to 11.

So if signs and wonders are always linked to Israel, when Israel fell temporary, and the gospel is now open to all Gentiles, thru their fall (Romans 11:11), is it that incredible to believe that signs and wonders have also ceased temporary?

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But signs and wonders were not just limited to Israel were they.

The aggressive negativity that cessationists use against those who believe in the gifts is little different to that of the Pharisees against Jesus and the disciples.
You get what you have faith for, and if you have faith for continued sickness and dearth from God, that's what you get.

Luke4v23He said to them, “You will surely say this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in Your country.’ ” 24Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. 25But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”
As in the OT, when Jesus's own people reject him, he moved on, eventually moving to the rest of the world.

28So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. 30Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way.
And when unchecked, this is the rage that continuationists have experienced over many centuries, many dying at the hands of murderous cessationists

Saint Steven said:

Already?
Why would you limit my response to Romans?
Here's a couple. (James 5:14; Matthew 10:8)

Would you pray for the sick if 1 in 100 were healed on the spot?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Continuationists say that 100 percent of the people we DON'T pray for DON'T get healed.
What percentage makes it worthwhile?

If one in a hundred received a healing on the spot, would you continue to do it?
Or would the 99 percent "failure" rate stop you?

Are we not commanded to pray for the sick whether they receive a healing or not?

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Oh I apologize, it was actually Francis Drake who made that claim.

So if you are using the popular verse used by Bill Johnson at Bethel, Matthew 10:8, did you not realized Matthew 10:5 also exists?

I always wonder why no one ever ask him why he deliberately left out Matthew 10:5. The instructions in vs 8 comes after vs 5 you know?

Francis Drake said:

6And we are having different gifts according to the grace having been given to us: if prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith; 7or service, in the service; or teaching, in the teaching; 8or exhorting, in the exhortation; giving, in generosity; leading, in diligence; showing mercy, in cheerfulness.

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So when you say Romans is popularly used by WOF preachers to teach that signs and wonders are still relevant for today, you are referring to this passage, which never even mentioned that phrase?

Francis Drake said:

But signs and wonders were not just limited to Israel were they.

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I already quoted 1 Cor 1:22 to you, plus you know Exodus 4?

It is limited to Israel, summed up by Psalms 74:9

We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

Saint Steven said:

Continuationists say that 100 percent of the people we DON'T pray for DON'T get healed.

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hmmm Jesus and the Apostles healed people they didn't pray for and that even had no faith.

so much your your assertion eh ?

Guojing said:

So when you say Romans is popularly used by WOF preachers to teach that signs and wonders are still relevant for today, you are referring to this passage, which never even mentioned that phrase?

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I never mentioned WOF preachers, nor do I listen to them. My original comment was to refute the following which makes no mention of WOF.

Guojing said-
Have you ever wondered why people who teach that signs and wonders are for today, that the gospel of the kingdom is still to be preached today, and then healings always accompanied that preaching, they rarely use Romans to Philemon for that purpose?

Instead, its almost always the 4 Gospels and Acts.

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As for the passage in Romans, it has no end date, and thus all continues till Jesus comes.

6And we are having different gifts according to the grace having been given to us:
(And all those gifts, including those listed elsewhere, shall continue till Jesus comes)

if prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith;
(Prophecy according to the proportion of faith............till Jesus comes)

7or service, in the service;
(And continue serving till Jesus comes)

or teaching, in the teaching
(And continue teaching until Jesus returns)

8or exhorting, in the exhortation;
(and continue exhorting the saints till Jesus comes)

giving, in generosity;
(And continue in generous giving till Jesus comes)

leading, in diligence; showing mercy, in cheerfulness.
(And continue in leading, diligence, mercy, and cheerfulness till Jesus comes.)

Francis Drake said:

I never mentioned WOF preachers, nor do I listen to them. My original comment was to refute the following which makes no mention of WOF.

As for the passage in Romans, it has no end date, and thus all continues till Jesus comes.

6And we are having different gifts according to the grace having been given to us:
(And all those gifts, including those listed elsewhere, shall continue till Jesus comes)

if prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith;
(Prophecy according to the proportion of faith............till Jesus comes)

7or service, in the service;
(And continue serving till Jesus comes)

or teaching, in the teaching
(And continue teaching until Jesus returns)

8or exhorting, in the exhortation;
(and continue exhorting the saints till Jesus comes)

giving, in generosity;
(And continue in generous giving till Jesus comes)

leading, in diligence; showing mercy, in cheerfulness.
(And continue in leading, diligence, mercy, and cheerfulness till Jesus comes.)

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If it included other gifts Paul would of mentioned them nice try its called EISEGESIS .

Try to exegete the passage not toss in your opinion and read your doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis. That is twisting scripture to say something that is not in the text.

hope this helps !!!

Francis Drake said:

I never mentioned WOF preachers, nor do I listen to them. My original comment was to refute the following which makes no mention of WOF.

As for the passage in Romans, it has no end date, and thus all continues till Jesus comes.

6And we are having different gifts according to the grace having been given to us:
(And all those gifts, including those listed elsewhere, shall continue till Jesus comes)

if prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith;
(Prophecy according to the proportion of faith............till Jesus comes)

7or service, in the service;
(And continue serving till Jesus comes)

or teaching, in the teaching
(And continue teaching until Jesus returns)

8or exhorting, in the exhortation;
(and continue exhorting the saints till Jesus comes)

giving, in generosity;
(And continue in generous giving till Jesus comes)

leading, in diligence; showing mercy, in cheerfulness.
(And continue in leading, diligence, mercy, and cheerfulness till Jesus comes.)

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So in case you have not seen my other post, do you think there are still apostles today?

Guojing said:

I already quoted 1 Cor 1:22

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That verse has no relevance to your argument whatsoever

to you, plus you know Exodus 4?

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Again absolutely no relevance.

It is limited to Israel, summed up by Psalms 74:9

We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

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That's an appallingly crass interpretation of one line taken out of context.

It's obvious to any novice that Asaph was speaking of where he stood at that time, not for Israel or anywhere else in perpetuity.
If your claim is correct, then you might as well rip the latter half of the OT out of your bible.

Apart from the fact that you ignore contradictory verses, your methodology of scripture interpretation is completely incoherent.

Jesus is YHWH said:

If it included other gifts Paul would of mentioned them nice try its called EISEGESIS .

Try to exegete the passage not toss in your opinion and read your doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis. That is twisting scripture to say something that is not in the text.

hope this helps !!!

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Drivel.
Eisegesis is placing an end date in Romans or any other book of the bible which is blatantly not there in the original.

Francis Drake said:

As for the passage in Romans, it has no end date, and thus all continues till Jesus comes.

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The question then becomes "If (whatever it is) DOES come to an end, how do we interpret that?"