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If the gifts did cease, where is the notice in scripture?
The two scriptures contain entirely different topics addressed to different parties. Matthew 19:28 is past tense and addressed to "you who have followed me" - we are not in that. John 14:12 is present tense speaking to believers like John 3:16.
WHAT would be a shock?This would be a shock to the old-fashioned Pentecostals who see members of the Anglican and Lutheran churches as dead and lukewarm, and "lacking in the Holy Spirit."
Well, that's cute enough to say, but we all know that this thread is about continuationism as referring to the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we've been talking about right along and as they were identified early in the discuscion. It's not about "continuing" something else entirely.But Anglicanism and Lutheranism, along with Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, are continuationalist by definition. Thats obviously because of the ritualistic liturgy of priests turning bread to the body of Christ, and their sacraments or ordinances of confession, anointing of the sick.
But the practice of glossia was practiced throughout church history between the apostles and Azusa. The Anabaptists practiced some glossia or miraculous gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongued. The early Methodist movement, an ancestor of the Holiness and Pentecostal movements. with John Wesley also reported miraculous tongue speaking.
Why must scripture pinpoint the decline and then absence of the gifts? There are all sorts of developments in Christianity that are not specifically identified or dated in Scripture, and yet we Christians adhere to them with little difficulty.If the gifts did cease, where is the notice in scripture?
Instead, its almost always the 4 Gospels and Acts.
Of course, it is most fitting that they use them! That is because they are major history books of the early church and of the life of Jesus.
Jesus is YHWH said: ↑
I've never heard of such HERESY. The way you twist the scriptures are incredible.
You realized that healing, raising dead, casting out demons are all linked to the gospel of the kingdom, which is not meant for Gentiles, but for the House of Israel, during Jesus earthly ministry?
I do not buy into that sort of hyper Dispensational theology because Scripture is the whole Bible, written for the salvation of the whole world.
Therefore, since the OP is about ceasing or continuance of the Gifts of Holy Spirit I shall decline to go on that rabbit trail.
The notice is that Israel the nation has fallen, as Paul explained in great details in Romans 9 to 11.
That is not in Romans. In fact, those chapters things that are directly opposite of what you state:
Romans 9:
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
There are other verses, but true to my word (and your claim was so outrageously contrary to Scripture, I felt compelled to respond) so let's return to the OP..
Well, I given you scripture, but I understand that most of us don't let scripture get in the way of our pre-existing doctrine.
Incorrect, again. I can state that because I quoted Scripture in its context to disprove your thesis.
OTOH you made a very B R O A D generalization without specific Scriptural support.
BTW, I am not intending to discuss Dispensationalism on this forum. Please return to the OP.
I only quoted from half of Romans 9. Deal with that, but do so on another thread that you create yourself.You forgot Romans 11:11?
BTW, I am not intending to discuss Dispensationalism on this forum. Please return to the OP.
Have you addressed my use of Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 10:5 onwards?
I only quoted from half of Romans 9. Deal with that, but do so on another thread that you create yourself.
I only quoted from half of Romans 9. Deal with that, but do so on another thread that you create yourself.
I meant what I said earlier:
Utter garbage.Have you ever wondered why people who teach that signs and wonders are for today, that the gospel of the kingdom is still to be preached today, and then healings always accompanied that preaching, they rarely use Romans to Philemon for that purpose?
Instead, its almost always the 4 Gospels and Acts.
Like many other things we read in scripture, there's absolutely nothing to indicate they would cease.Actually, there is nothing in those passages that says these gifts will be present through all of time to come.
If you start claiming they were limited to only those present, then you have to adopt the same policy with the whole of scripture. And then you might as well burn your bibles and make up your own religion from scratch.They are obviously addressed to the those who were the readers and listeners at that time, whether or not anyone among us now thinks the gifts continued uninterrupted.
That's because remnants the gifts had always been there, but illegal, subject to persecution and death, and consequently hidden away from the mainstream.But there is also this, which no one ever seems to mention. The modern Pentecostal movement dates from several centuries ago, and involves several separate events which amounted to a call to RESTORE the gifts to the church.
Modern Pentecostalism was about legitimising an ancient ongoing biblical phenomena.So today, the heirs of those people tell the rest of us that the gifts never ceased even though their own movement was based upon the idea of bringing them back into use!
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