To Catch A Predator Is Wrong

[Gishin]

Wasn't there a guy who killed himself because of this show?

Here it is. NBC-To Catch A Predator Sued- Man Commits Suicide — Non Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

I just don't like the idea of punishing people for a crime they would have committed but didn't commit.

 

[Zebra1552]

Wasn't there a guy who killed himself because of this show?

Here it is. NBC-To Catch A Predator Sued- Man Commits Suicide — Non Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

I just don't like the idea of punishing people for a crime they would have committed but didn't commit.

Leads to all sorts of sticky issues that the current law system isn't prepared to deal with at this time. It's always wise to prevent crime, however, and while they probably shouldn't be convicted, they should be encouraged to get help (of course, with the kinds of attitudes we've seen here, why should they even bother?). QED, your story.

 

[William_0]

Appeal to popularity isn't enough to excuse anything.

How does our electoral system... wait, no, any democratic institution function without popular support?

This is a moral issue, not a political one.

Moral issues are addressed through political institutions. I.E. it's a political issue. Which isn't in any way relevant, by the way, buddy.

And qualifying the issue with civil society doesn't exclusively mean it's a political issue. Under the premise that society supports the actions of To Catch a Predator, society condones the public humiliation of child predators. Therefore, society feels that it is morally acceptable to treat predators in this manner. I.E. it's socially acceptable, as moral values to be enforced are designated by society.

Stick to the issue. The issue is whether TCAP is wrong in how they treat the criminals. I think it is, and I have stated my reasons. Care to address them?

Heinous crimes deserve harsher punishments.

Dignity is not an inalienable right. Not to mention public shaming has significant deterrence value. It all boils down to one's valuation of dignity vs. the impact of punishment. Does the deterrence and retributive value of shaming a criminal outweigh the value of a criminal's dignity? When one knowingly attempts to commit a sexual crime against children, he/she has voluntarily given up his or her right to dignity.

 

[Zebra1552]

How does our electoral system... wait, no, any democratic institution function without popular support?

You follow up an appeal to popularity with a red herring. This isn't about democracy. It's about how predators are treated by NBC.

Moral issues are addressed through political institutions. I.E. it's a political issue. Which isn't in any way relevant, by the way, buddy.

They are also addressed through religious institutions. Like the church. Or Jesus Himself.

And qualifying the issue with civil society doesn't exclusively mean it's a political issue. Under the premise that society supports the actions of To Catch a Predator, society condones the public humiliation of child predators. Therefore, society feels that it is morally acceptable to treat predators in this manner. I.E. it's socially acceptable, as moral values to be enforced are designated by society.

Society also says it is acceptable to do many other things that we as Christians should be against, like affairs and premarital sex. Why should we, as Christians, pay attention to what society thinks on issues of how to treat other people?

Heinous crimes deserve harsher punishments.

This thread isn't about punishments. Red herring.

Dignity is not an inalienable right. Not to mention public shaming has significant deterrence value. It all boils down to one's valuation of dignity vs. the impact of punishment. Does the deterrence and retributive value of shaming a criminal outweigh the value of a criminal's dignity? When one knowingly attempts to commit a sexual crime against children, he/she has voluntarily given up his or her right to dignity.

This isn't about punishment. This is about how a show publicly treats a certain class of criminal and if it is wrong.

 

[Macx]

Then let's subject you to the same sort of treatment

Stop right there. Re-read the thread. I said, I was a victim, that I lost my virginity when I was less than 3 & because someone violated HIPPA, it is now a matter of public record with my name out there for anybody. My privacy . . . gone! I can't get the record sealed and I was less than 3 (a juvenile by ANYBODY'S standards, none of this gray area 18 year old dating a 15 year old) 3, not 13. I have BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE SAME TREATMENT and I'M A BLOODY SURVIVOR!

See if you like it.

Does it sound like I like it?

Do you think that's fair?

For victims? no. For perps. . . more than fair.

Why should they be given especially worse treatment?

The 8th amendment doesn't allow anything like justice for these men, anything within the law is just a nod in the general direction of justice. The damage done by these criminals is lifelong, can produce more of their kind or generate individuals with a hyperactive sense of vengence (like me). I don't claim to be objective on this issue, I have been forthright with the personal nature of my feelings on this topic. I know I am not a good person, but I trace most of the ways I am bad back to being sexualized before I have terms for what was happening & anger at the feelings that couldn't be expressed by a child that age under those circumstances. For every individual like me, who comes to terms with it, stays out of prison, gets quality therapy & finds a positive way to deal . . . how many do you think become what they hate, wreck their lives overcompensating, wreck their lives trying to escape through drugs, wreck their lives exacting revenge, etc. . . . ? I just don't think you have any idea the scope of the damage, Jaws.

I daresay that under the right conditions you or anyone else you know could become the predator on that show.

Nope, you have to try and hook up with a kid. If you just watch the ending you may not get it, they do a pretty good job of screening because they want to be able to prove intent in court.

Just because they did something horrible doesn't give you or anyone else the right to treat them horribly.

Sometimes, it does.

 

[Zebra1552]

Stop right there. Re-read the thread. I said, I was a victim, that I lost my virginity when I was less than 3 & because someone violated HIPPA, it is now a matter of public record with my name out there for anybody. My privacy . . . gone! I can't get the record sealed and I was less than 3 (a juvenile by ANYBODY'S standards, none of this gray area 18 year old dating a 15 year old) 3, not 13. I have BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE SAME TREATMENT and I'M A BLOODY SURVIVOR!

Does it sound like I like it?

Your background isn't the issue here, but since you introduced it, something's not adding up with what you're saying. You say you've been victimized by publicity and it sucks, yet you expect me to believe we should be treating the perps the same way?

For victims? no. For perps. . . more than fair.

Why? Because you say so? Because they should receive the same treatment you did? For what possible reason do two wrongs make it right?

The 8th amendment doesn't allow anything like justice for these men, anything within the law is just a nod in the general direction of justice. The damage done by these criminals is lifelong, can produce more of their kind or generate individuals with a hyperactive sense of vengence (like me).

So is the damage done by the current law system and how it treats sex crimes and sex offenders- of any kind. It isn't them that creates the hyperactive vengeance. They don't force your opinions.

I don't claim to be objective on this issue, I have been forthright with the personal nature of my feelings on this topic. I know I am not a good person, but I trace most of the ways I am bad back to being sexualized before I have terms for what was happening & anger at the feelings that couldn't be expressed by a child that age under those circumstances. For every individual like me, who comes to terms with it, stays out of prison, gets quality therapy & finds a positive way to deal . . . how many do you think become what they hate, wreck their lives overcompensating, wreck their lives trying to escape through drugs, wreck their lives exacting revenge, etc. . . . ? I just don't think you have any idea the scope of the damage, Jaws.

I don't care if you think I'm naive. That isn't the issue. The issue is how human beings are treated. I care about what Christ taught. Christ forgave those who beat him and killed him. If His followers cannot do the same, then we do not deserve to be called His followers.

 

[William_0]

You follow up an appeal to popularity with a red herring. This isn't about democracy. It's about how predators are treated by NBC.

Public shaming is a form of societal punishment.

They are also addressed through religious institutions. Like the church. Or Jesus Himself.

Religious institutions have no legal authority.

Society also says it is acceptable to do many other things that we as Christians should be against, like affairs and premarital sex. Why should we, as Christians, pay attention to what society thinks on issues of how to treat other people?

1. Values differ on an person-by-person basis
2. Society's values shape the institutions around us
3. Not every Christian shares your values

This thread isn't about punishments. Red herring.

This isn't about punishment. This is about how a show publicly treats a certain class of criminal and if it is wrong.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any less-wrong.


Put that herring in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Mystman]

The major underlying problem with this program is the ridiculous lack of privacy-protection in the US. Some private company should not have the right to plaster your image all over people's TV screen, no matter the reason. You think that tcap's actions are a valid form of punishment for people who would like to have sex with pubescent girls? Fine. Let the government give that punishment, and let them give it to each perpetrator equally, according to the level of the crime. A television network doesn't hand out equal punishments; it just broadcasts whatever makes the most money and the other perpetrators get of lightly.

Justice by capitalism is a very scary idea, one that we really should try avoiding.

 

[MountainCappuccino]

Wasn't there a guy who killed himself because of this show?

Here it is. NBC-To Catch A Predator Sued- Man Commits Suicide — Non Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

I just don't like the idea of punishing people for a crime they would have committed but didn't commit.

He took the honorable way out.

 

[William_0]

He took the honorable way out.

Ah, seppuku.

 

[MountainCappuccino]

You follow up an appeal to popularity with a red herring. This isn't about democracy. It's about how predators are treated by NBC.

They are also addressed through religious institutions. Like the church. Or Jesus Himself.


Society also says it is acceptable to do many other things that we as Christians should be against, like affairs and premarital sex. Why should we, as Christians, pay attention to what society thinks on issues of how to treat other people?


This thread isn't about punishments. Red herring.


This isn't about punishment. This is about how a show publicly treats a certain class of criminal and if it is wrong.

The Christian concept of forgiveness does not assert that criminality should be coddled and the privacy of those who sinned kept secret. A sinning member of a Church is publicly confronted by other members and condemned for their actions; in revelation 20 all man kind stands before God in a public setting as they are judged for their sins. I'm sure the pharisees and temple merchants were quite embarrassed as they were being lambasted by Jesus in front of crowds of people as well!
I'm not one for verse nit-picking and semantics, except when it crosses into the threshold of protecting child killers and molesters from public scrutiny and then using the bible to justify it.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The guys Dateline catches as a result of this show are criminals, who need should be punished as criminals. Thanks to them, many potential child molesters are off the streets.

But have you seen what they do just before sending them off to jail?

I Just saw one episode, where a man about 31 years old with glasses stripped naked, while hearing a voice of someone he believed to be a 14 year old girl in another room. When he's totally naked, Chris Hansen comes out, and proceeds to strip every last shred of dignity this man has, by asking consending questions with no purpose other than to further humiliate him:

Hansen: "Were you planning to have sex with a 14 year old?"
Man: "Uh, no I wasn't really gonna go all the way."
Hansen: "Oh come on! You're naked!"

Well Chris, if it's soooo obvious what he's doing, why put him through all this? Why all the snarky coments?

After what seems to be about ten minutes of useless obvious questions, he lets him know he's on national T.V., and a camera crew comes out. Now he's naked (just a towel) in a room full of people. Chris Hansen further destroys all shred of his self-respect by asking him if he has "anything to say" to millions of people who will now know what he's doing. This serves no purpose other than a sadistic enjoyment of watching him squirm. Put on the spot, he of course apologizes.

And to top it all off, Chris Hansen tells the guy he's free to go, and "keep the towel" just to stomp on his humanity one last time. What the guy doesn't know, is that he's not actually "free to go", there are cops outside in camoflage ready to put him to the ground, cuff him, and take him to jail. They don't show it, but I just know Chris Hansen is laughing his head off like "We said he was "free", let's see the look on his face when he realizes we just said that to screw with him".

Aren't there laws against "cruel and unusual punishment" for a reason? Aren't these laws in place because we recognize that criminals are still human beings? (Yes; Chris Hansen isn't offically a law enforcement official, so I guess it's okay, huh?)

Do you think this is right to do? I for one don't. Yes, what these men do is illegal, and immoral; but that's only depending on which country you live in, or in the U.S., what state you live in.

It's wrong to treat men who think they're going to have consentual sex with a teenager, who depending on the country (or state) would be legal to have sex with.

I'm not too concerned with the dignity of somebody who's about to go have sex with a minor. And I'd venture a guess that anybody who just wanders into a strange house and gets naked after walking in the door isn't too particularly concerned about their dignity either.

 

[Macx]

Your background isn't the issue here, but since you introduced it, something's not adding up with what you're saying. You say you've been victimized by publicity and it sucks, yet you expect me to believe we should be treating the perps the same way?

The perp chose to commit the crime, the 3 year old didn't choose to be a victim, why is it hard to understand that they should be treated differently?

Why? Because you say so? Because they should receive the same treatment you did? For what possible reason do two wrongs make it right?

The first wrong can never be made right, your implication that the second is a wrong. . . is wrong.

So is the damage done by the current law system and how it treats sex crimes and sex offenders- of any kind. It isn't them that creates the hyperactive vengeance. They don't force your opinions.

The alternative is to normalize the behavior of the predator, which is what turns victims into predators. Why is it you think two wrongs make a right?

I don't care if you think I'm naive. That isn't the issue. The issue is how human beings are treated. I care about what Christ taught. Christ forgave those who beat him and killed him. If His followers cannot do the same, then we do not deserve to be called His followers.

Yeah, you are right . . . I already said I am not a good person & I already explained why. If the brokeness that these predators leave in their wake isn't enough evidence for you, you are probably beyond the ability to have compasion. Go ahead and defend these heroes, maybe you'll get to stand with bad Christians like me and the predators come judgenment day.

 

[Hipsterz]

You think a 31 buy having sex with a 14 year old girl is what.. normal? cool? Are you serious??????

I think its just as bad as a 45 year old having sex with a 24 year old. Its just dreadful.

 

[Zebra1552]

The Christian concept of forgiveness does not assert that criminality should be coddled and the privacy of those who sinned kept secret.

Nor did I say that it did. This isn't about privacy, it's about whether someone should be humiliated and lied to before being arrested for something they would have done.

A sinning member of a Church is publicly confronted by other members and condemned for their actions; in revelation 20 all man kind stands before God in a public setting as they are judged for their sins. I'm sure the pharisees and temple merchants were quite embarrassed as they were being lambasted by Jesus in front of crowds of people as well!
I'm not one for verse nit-picking and semantics, except when it crosses into the threshold of protecting child killers and molesters from public scrutiny and then using the bible to justify it.

Straw man. I'm not using it to protect them from their crimes. I'm saying that how they are treated on the show is wrong, and that is fully supported by the arguments I have already made. No amount of appeal to emotion is going to rebut that.

 

[Zebra1552]

The perp chose to commit the crime, the 3 year old didn't choose to be a victim, why is it hard to understand that they should be treated differently?

Because they are both human beings.

The first wrong can never be made right, your implication that the second is a wrong. . . is wrong.

How? Why? Just because you say so? Christ died for all mankind- even child molesters. Christians would do well to remember that.

The alternative is to normalize the behavior of the predator, which is what turns victims into predators. Why is it you think two wrongs make a right?

What does that have to do with my response to your comment? A victim has a choice, the same as the perpetrator.

Yeah, you are right . . . I already said I am not a good person & I already explained why. If the brokeness that these predators leave in their wake isn't enough evidence for you, you are probably beyond the ability to have compasion. Go ahead and defend these heroes, maybe you'll get to stand with bad Christians like me and the predators come judgenment day.

I'm not defending what they did. I'm saying that they are humans, which the Bible says Christians should love. If loving everyone equally regardless of their crimes isn't compassion, I don't know what is.

 

[MacNeil, D.]

....
I'm not defending what they did. I'm saying that they are humans, which the Bible says Christians should love. If loving everyone equally regardless of their crimes isn't compassion, I don't know what is.

Do you realize you're lecturing people who have been the victims of child molestation?

 

[Zebra1552]

Do you realize you're lecturing people who have been the victims of child molestation?

Do you realize I'm stating my opinion, which is my right in this forum, and it is the same opinion I have stated since I entered this thread? How, then, am I lecturing anyone? He responded to my comment, I responded to his.

 

[MacNeil, D.]

Do you realize I'm stating my opinion, which is my right in this forum, and it is the same opinion I have stated since I entered this thread? How, then, am I lecturing anyone? He responded to my comment, I responded to his.

Just so long as you realize it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It seems to me that the desire to humiliate or to see others humiliated is nothing more than sheer petty vindictiveness. In a show like TCAP (at least as presented here--I haven't seen the show), the humiliation is a direct appeal to that vindictiveness as well as that so admiral trait--overweening self-righteousness.

So, do you stand in the temple and speak for all to hear, "Thank you God, that I am not like that other man"? Or, do you recognize, "There but for the grace of God, go I"?