To be or not to be, that is the question.

[Par5]

The question being, do Christians consider the biblical god to be omniscient or do they consider him not to be omniscient?
There is an interesting discussion In the Controversial Christian Apologetics thread (a thread in which I am not allowed to participate) on this very topic and how it would affect free will.
I think the only way a believer could claim they had free will would be if they also claimed that their god is not omniscient.
I can think of a couple of things in the bible that seem to suggest the biblical god is not omniscient. God was at first pleased with his creation, then later felt grieved and regretted his creation. That is hardly the reaction of a supposedly omniscient being and it also calls into question the claim that the biblical god does not change.
Another incident, recorded in the book of Job, tells of the sons of God gathering before the Lord and that Satan was among them. God asks satan what he has been up to which again does not suggest omniscience. Job is then put to the test to show his loyalty to the biblical god and it would appear that satan did not consider god to be omniscient as only a complete fool would bet against a being it knew was omniscient and therefore in full knowledge of the outcome of such a wager. If the biblical god is not omniscient would that also mean he is not omnipotent?
Looking forward to your comments.

 

[St_Worm2]

...the only way a believer could claim they had free will would be if they also claimed that their god is not omniscient.

Hi Par5, we call God omniscient because He knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, but how does "knowing" our choices become the same thing as "controlling" our choices? IOW, why do you believe that God being omniscient also means that He is our Cosmic Puppet Master

Thanks!

--David

 

[Par5]

Hi Par5, we call God omniscient because He knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, but how does "knowing" our choices become the same thing as "controlling" our choices? IOW, why do you believe that God being omniscient also means that He is our Cosmic Puppet Master

Thanks!

--David

I often hear Christians say things like, "It's part of god's plan". That would mean that it is predestined and what happens is what god meant to happen. It would mean that those involved in that plan would only be doing what was already set out for them to do. What they do can only be a delusion of free will.
I also have great difficulty in understanding why a supposedly omniscient being and creator of mankind would do so knowing that even before the creation started that he would eventually destroy his creation, that his creation would vex him and fill him with regret even though he was initially pleased with his creation. Hardly the reactions you would attribute to an omniscient being. All very human emotions.

 

[Freodin]

Hi Par5, we call God omniscient because He knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, but how does "knowing" our choices become the same thing as "controlling" our choices? IOW, why do you believe that God being omniscient also means that He is our Cosmic Puppet Master

Thanks!

--David

It is a direct consequence not only of God's omniscience, but also his omnipotence and him being the "creator" of everything.

Christians who disagree with the idea of God as a "Cosmic Puppet Master" cannot think beyond the direct, instantaneous influence of God. It is a very understandable, very human limitation.

But it is also a wrong understanding of this problem.

Rather, consider this whole process as a huge and extremely complicated Rube-Goldberg-Maschine.

So when God "controls" the human decision, it is not a direct divine action made at the moment of decision-making, but it refers to God setting up the whole system - and because of his omniscience knowing each and every result comming from this initial system - so that there is no other outcome possible.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Free will is a poorly defined idea to begin with.

We have these primitive desires, desires which are fundamental to us and which we cannot control. We act in accordance with them and we didn't "choose" these primitive desires.

Even if we did choose them, that would still solve nothing. Suppose we imagine all the souls waiting to be born into a body and they're sitting there determining what their primitive desires will be which will guide their free will. Since they have no primitive desires yet, their choice would not be made according to free will. One cannot have a will if one has no desire.

We're all just born how we are, a process that is more or less random. At least we can say we have no control over how we were born. We're born with these desires which we initially try to satisfy until we learn how to be a part of society. Everyone's participation in society is their way of satisfying their desires to the greatest degree possible. We are slaves to our desire, and no, Christ doesn't set you free from that.

 

[cvanwey]

The question being, do Christians consider the biblical god to be omniscient or do they consider him not to be omniscient?
There is an interesting discussion In the Controversial Christian Apologetics thread (a thread in which I am not allowed to participate) on this very topic and how it would affect free will.
I think the only way a believer could claim they had free will would be if they also claimed that their god is not omniscient.
I can think of a couple of things in the bible that seem to suggest the biblical god is not omniscient. God was at first pleased with his creation, then later felt grieved and regretted his creation. That is hardly the reaction of a supposedly omniscient being and it also calls into question the claim that the biblical god does not change.
Another incident, recorded in the book of Job, tells of the sons of God gathering before the Lord and that Satan was among them. God asks satan what he has been up to which again does not suggest omniscience. Job is then put to the test to show his loyalty to the biblical god and it would appear that satan did not consider god to be omniscient as only a complete fool would bet against a being it knew was omniscient and therefore in full knowledge of the outcome of such a wager. If the biblical god is not omniscient would that also mean he is not omnipotent?
Looking forward to your comments.

God is either 'watching re-runs' or is not omniscient. So one may argue that He is either a sadistic voyeur in many specific cases, or is not all powerful.

And in regards to free will, this term is widely disputed, as many differing definitions arise. Is one a hard determinist vs compatibilist vs a libertarianist?

My contention is that free will is defined by the control of your thoughts, not your actions; (Daniel Do, UC Irvine). And since every action requires a prior thought, there you go...

 

[Tinker Grey]

Is God outside time? Many Christians would say he is. The universe is space-time. If God created everything, he created the space-time continuum. Would it make sense to say that he created only one instant or would it make sense to say he created all instants? I'd say the latter. Otherwise you'd have to posit that creation is an on going activity which kind of makes God limited. Also, it means that he didn't create all of the universe in an instant just part of it--a time-slice of it. (Never mind wondering how a god outside time does anything at all.)

So if we can agree that God create the whole of space-time and did it all at once or at least actively created each time-slice of it however he did it, he does not merely know the sin you will commit next Wednesday, he created you doing it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The question being, do Christians consider the biblical god to be omniscient or do they consider him not to be omniscient?
There is an interesting discussion In the Controversial Christian Apologetics thread (a thread in which I am not allowed to participate) on this very topic and how it would affect free will.
I think the only way a believer could claim they had free will would be if they also claimed that their god is not omniscient.
I can think of a couple of things in the bible that seem to suggest the biblical god is not omniscient. God was at first pleased with his creation, then later felt grieved and regretted his creation. That is hardly the reaction of a supposedly omniscient being and it also calls into question the claim that the biblical god does not change.
Another incident, recorded in the book of Job, tells of the sons of God gathering before the Lord and that Satan was among them. God asks satan what he has been up to which again does not suggest omniscience. Job is then put to the test to show his loyalty to the biblical god and it would appear that satan did not consider god to be omniscient as only a complete fool would bet against a being it knew was omniscient and therefore in full knowledge of the outcome of such a wager. If the biblical god is not omniscient would that also mean he is not omnipotent?
Looking forward to your comments.

God is God. What do I care if He's Almighty or All-knowing or not? My only concern is with whether or not He has enough power to sustain Life and Love after I lose my physical body.

Unfortunately, as a limited, mortal human being, I can never fully "know" in this life that He has the power and knowledge to do the things I hope He can do. In fact, the only thing I can be certain of is that I will never be certain about what God is or can do, and I say this with truncated or superficial interpretations of Hebrews 11 notwithstanding.

 

[Par5]

God is God. What do I care if He's Almighty or All-knowing or not? My only concern is with whether or not He has enough power to sustain Life and Love after I lose my physical body.

Unfortunately, as a limited, mortal human being, I can never fully "know" in this life that He has the power and knowledge to do the things I hope He can do. In fact, the only thing I can be certain of is that I will never be certain about what God is or can do, and I say this with truncated or superficial interpretations of Hebrews 11 notwithstanding.

So, in other words, you believe in a being that you don't really have a clue about and only hope this being can do certain things that will be to your spiritual advantage. On that basis, I find it difficult to understand why anyone would devote their life to this being when their understanding of this being is so terribly limited.
Hebrews 11 is, as you know, about faith, but faith is believing something that you cannot prove which is hardly a good foundation on which you devote your life to something.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, in other words, you believe in a being that you don't really have a clue about and only hope this being can do certain things that will be to your spiritual advantage. On that basis, I find it difficult to understand why anyone would devote their life to this being when their understanding of this being is so terribly limited.
Hebrews 11 is, as you know, about faith, but faith is believing something that you cannot prove which is hardly a good foundation on which you devote your life to something.

I wouldn't define my belief and faith in that way, but feel free to do so if you feel you must. And while you do that, I'll just return the compliment by asserting that all atheists are simply maladjusted individuals who, due to bad circumstances in life, can't seem to find room for faith in God in their own hearts and minds. It wouldn't be "true," of course, since there's much more to any one atheist's disbelief than that, but I guess I'd be free to define it in that way if I feel I must ...

 

[Steve Petersen]

Do we get to choose our parents or the nation we are born in? Can we choose options we are unaware of?