To all Mormons

[skylark1]

Wouldn't you agree that Adam and Eve fall into a different category than the rest of us? They started out immortal and in the presence of God.

However, to answer your question: I do not believe that Adam and Eve were born - they were created and I don't believe when they were created they had the Light of Christ as we know it.

Do you feel the situation with Adam and Eve impacts the explanation I have given?

Yes, I feel that the situation with Adam and Eve is very relevant to the explanation that you gave me. (I agree that "born" was a poor choice of words, as I realize that Adam and Eve where not "born," but created.)

Do you believe that at some point in their lives Adam and Eve knew good from evil because of the Light of Christ?

 

[Visage of Glory]

I appreciate your input, VoG.

How can there be Christians both in the LDS and outside of it? MormonFriend seems to think we are listening to different Spirits. Would God lead some Christians to believe in Joseph Smith and others to not believe in him?

I believe they are Christian by trying to follow Christ's teachings to the best of their knowledge. They strive to follow Him and His commandments. And most importantly, they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for the sins of the world. That is my definition of Christian. Now, whether they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit is a different story.

When you say we are confounded by the craftiness of men, are you referring to our belief in a Triune God and salvation without requirements of the laws and ordinances that you follow?

I was not referring to anything specific, but, yes, those could be some of things that they are confused about.

 

[Akuma]

People are really getting into this.

 

[Rescued One]

I believe they are Christian by trying to follow Christ's teachings to the best of their knowledge. They strive to follow Him and His commandments. And most importantly, they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for the sins of the world. That is my definition of Christian. Now, whether they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit is a different story.

How can anyone be a Christian (adopted into God's family for eternity) and not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Ran77]

Yes, I feel that the situation with Adam and Eve is very relevant to the explanation that you gave me. (I agree that "born" was a poor choice of words, as I realize that Adam and Eve where not "born," but created.)

Do you believe that at some point in their lives Adam and Eve knew good from evil because of the Light of Christ?

Yes, I believe that they obtained the Light of Christ when they ate of the fruit. (Although, that is my initial reaction to your question. I haven't really spent any time researching it.)

Ok, I have answered you. Will you explain how it is relevant?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

How can anyone be a Christian (adopted into God's family for eternity) and not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

They can't.

 

[unbound]

How can anyone be a Christian (adopted into God's family for eternity) and not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Wow, that question is a double edged sword, for sure....The answer is, they cant.

 

[MormonFriend]

How can there be Christians both in the LDS and outside of it? MormonFriend seems to think we are listening to different Spirits. Would God lead some Christians to believe in Joseph Smith and others to not believe in him?

I believe they are Christian by trying to follow Christ's teachings to the best of their knowledge. They strive to follow Him and His commandments. And most importantly, they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for the sins of the world. That is my definition of Christian. Now, whether they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit is a different story.

How can anyone be a Christian (adopted into God's family for eternity) and not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

It helps to keep quotes or comments in contexet of the issue at hand. "MormonFriend seems to think we are listening to different Spirits." You have never directly answered me on this issue either. My main focus stll is that when Christians claim to understand doctrine, and when their understandings differ, they cannot claim to be understanding from the same Spirit of God. It is biblical that understanding comes from the Spirit of God. So how then can Christianity be "one body" when they do not learn the same things from the One Head?

Regarding your discussion with VoG, you stated: "Would God lead some Christians to believe in Joseph Smith and others to not believe in him?" Technically, you should remove the "in." (See our first article of faith)

I understand in our theology that all who enter into any degree of salvation (1 Cor. 15:41&42) will have bowed the knee and confessed with the tounge that Jesus is the Christ, and will have received baptism by authority of God's Priesthood in this life or after, while awaiting the ressurection.

As for what the Holy Ghost reveals to each individual in this life, you are not taking into account with our beliefs that we made choices in a pre-earth life as to what the Holy Ghost will reveal to us, having learned that where knowledge is given by That Source, obedience to such knowledge is crucial. It is not given us to know who made what choices, so it is impossible to differentiate who in this life is not listening to the Holy Ghost, or who the Holy Ghost has not revealed certain truths.

To answer your current question, yes the Holy Spirit can tell all Christians, regardless of denomination, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and by none other can salvation be gained. Of doctrines that pertain to the different degrees of salvation, the Holy Ghost may or may not reveal such things. We do not know who they are, whether within the LDS Church or not. Condemnation is based on adverse choices made to the light given by the Spirit. Many LDS who know by the Spirit may face condemnation according to what they know. It should not be assumed that having knowledge by the Spirit automatically brings us into the family of God, but becoming a part of that family does require such knowledge from such Source, as well as obedience to that knowledge.

 

[Rescued One]

It helps to keep quotes or comments in contexet of the issue at hand. "MormonFriend seems to think we are listening to different Spirits." You have never directly answered me on this issue either. My main focus stll is that when Christians claim to understand doctrine, and when their understandings differ, they cannot claim to be understanding from the same Spirit of God. It is biblical that understanding comes from the Spirit of God. So how then can Christianity be "one body" when they do not learn the same things from the One Head?

Who are you to say we don't listen to God?

Regarding your discussion with VoG, you stated: "Would God lead some Christians to believe in Joseph Smith and others to not believe in him?" Technically, you should remove the "in." (See our first article of faith)

I understand in our theology that all who enter into any degree of salvation (1 Cor. 15:41&42) will have bowed the knee and confessed with the tounge that Jesus is the Christ, and will have received baptism by authority of God's Priesthood in this life or after, while awaiting the ressurection.

There are no "degrees" of salvation. He that believes is saved, not partially saved.

Revelation 3
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

As for what the Holy Ghost reveals to each individual in this life, you are not taking into account with our beliefs that we made choices in a pre-earth life as to what the Holy Ghost will reveal to us, having learned that where knowledge is given by That Source, obedience to such knowledge is crucial. It is not given us to know who made what choices, so it is impossible to differentiate who in this life is not listening to the Holy Ghost, or who the Holy Ghost has not revealed certain truths.

Since you don't know, I guess you should stop grasping at straws.

To answer your current question, yes the Holy Spirit can tell all Christians, regardless of denomination, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and by none other can salvation be gained.

So the Holy Spirit can teach Christians? How generous you are! Not!

Of doctrines that pertain to the different degrees of salvation, the Holy Ghost may or may not reveal such things. We do not know who they are, whether within the LDS Church or not. Condemnation is based on adverse choices made to the light given by the Spirit. Many LDS who know by the Spirit may face condemnation according to what they know. It should not be assumed that having knowledge by the Spirit automatically brings us into the family of God, but becoming a part of that family does require such knowledge from such Source, as well as obedience to that knowledge.

You have no problem calling people apostates, deceived, etc. It's so ironic that you call us Christians.

The so-called Christian world:

"With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century." - John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 167

"Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:287

"The gods of Christendom are just as false as the gods of the Assyrians"-Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p55

Sure---people who worship a false god(s) are Christians? Cute way you have of trying to butter people up.

 

[MormonFriend]

It helps to keep quotes or comments in contexet of the issue at hand. "MormonFriend seems to think we are listening to different Spirits." You have never directly answered me on this issue either. My main focus stll is that when Christians claim to understand doctrine, and when their understandings differ, they cannot claim to be understanding from the same Spirit of God. It is biblical that understanding comes from the Spirit of God. So how then can Christianity be "one body" when they do not learn the same things from the One Head?

Who are you to say we don't listen to God?

Just someone who has joined in a discussion and has made some significant observations that deserve a better reply than this.

 

[MormonFriend]

There are no "degrees" of salvation. He that believes is saved, not partially saved.

Please enlighten me as to what 1 Cor. 15:41&42 is talking about.

Perhaps I best should have said degress of "heaven." Each degree is salvation in the fullest that the individual is willing to accept.

 

[MormonFriend]

As for what the Holy Ghost reveals to each individual in this life, you are not taking into account with our beliefs that we made choices in a pre-earth life as to what the Holy Ghost will reveal to us, having learned that where knowledge is given by That Source, obedience to such knowledge is crucial. It is not given us to know who made what choices, so it is impossible to differentiate who in this life is not listening to the Holy Ghost, or who the Holy Ghost has not revealed certain truths.

Since you don't know, I guess you should stop grasping at straws.

Since I don't know, I do not judge any person as an individual as to what their earthly status is, or what their eternal status will be. I don't know what straws you are referring to.

 

[Rescued One]

Please enlighten me as to what 1 Cor. 15:41&42 is talking about.

Perhaps I best should have said degress of "heaven." Each degree is salvation in the fullest that the individual is willing to accept.

There is no salvation at all without accepting Christ. The person who is born again accepts His salvation, not just a little piece of it, as it can not be broken into pieces.

1 Corinthians 15
v.38

a. But gives it a body as He pleases - the first truth that Paul wanted the Corinthians to know is that God is the granter of the resurrection body / He crafts it

b. and to each seed its own body - just as God has given every seed that is planted / a form that comes out of the earth - so God will give each believer that dies a new resurrection body

v.39

a. All flesh is not the same flesh - Paul start hammering away at their logic regarding this issue / they should realize that there are different kinds of bodies for different kinds of beings

b. but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds - what paul is saying is that God has crafted each creature with a body that is suitable for them

c. for a man to survive on land / for animals to survive the elements / for fish live in the water / for birds to fly

d. why is it so difficult to think that if God can craft those creatures a body - that he can’t construct a resurrection body

v.40

a. there are also celestial bodies - there are being suited for heavenly living

b. terrestrial bodies - there is stuff suited for earthly living

c. but the glory of the celestial is one - those things that live in heaven have one kind of glory

d. and the glory of the terrestrial is another - those things that live on earth have a different kind of glory

e. if God can make different kind of bodies that live in different spheres - then why is it difficult to believe in a resurrection body

v.41

a. there is one glory of the sun - the sun has a glory suited for its existence

b. another glory for the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory - all these things in space

pg. 3 / I Cor 15 pt . 3

have been suited for their existence there / and yet we find it difficult to think God can create a resurrection body?

v.42

a. so also there is a resurrection of the dead - he states it as though its a fact and for Paul it was / and for us its a fact as well

b. the body is sown in corruption - we are born with corruption - our nature is corrupted / and thus we grow old and die / from the moment we’re born we begin the long journey to our deaths

c. it is raised in incorruption - in the resurrection our nature will good, not corrupted / we will not grow old / we will not die

v.43

a. it is sown in dishonor - we are born with dishonor / apart from God we do not honor Him

b. it is raised in glory - when the body is put in the ground - it is put there in dishonor for it is dead due to sin / but at the resurrection - the body that comes forth is not capable sin for it has an incorruptible nature

c. it is sown in weakness - the bodies we have are weak, they’re frail, they sin, they don’t have much resistance, they die

d. raised in power - the resurrection is a body that is strong, that is not frail, that does not sin, and one that will never die

v.44

a. it is sown a natural body - the body we have is natural, it is common to all - it is a body that everyone alive sort of experiences the same things

b. it is raised a spiritual body - the resurrection body is not natural, and is not common - for it is a spiritual - one shaped and crafted by God Himself

c. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body - just as it is

logical that since we have a body in this life, there will be a body in the next life

v.45

a. And so it is written, “The first Adam became a living soul” - we are like the first Adam - we are living souls

b. the last Adam became a life-giving spirit - the last Adam, Jesus, is now a life-giving spiritual person - and we will be like him - a spiritual person

http://www.studynotes.org/new_page_56.htm

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago---whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows---such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

The idea of "the third heaven" is a strange concept to us today that raises all sorts of questions. Are there different levels of heaven? Do different levels of heaven correspond to how how well one has lived; more good works the higher the level, with "death bed" conversions being at the bottom? What exactly is "the third heaven"?

These are understandable questions for modern people. This verse is a good example of how 2,000 years and a different culture can come between the text and our understanding of it. If we were a part of Jewish culture 2,000 years ago this sentence would have made more sense than it does to us today.

http://www.cresourcei.org/thirdheaven.html


The lower sea of physical waters (our seas and oceans)
The first heaven (the atmosphere)
The second heaven (outer space)
The sea above outer space and below the third heaven
And above it all, there is the Third Heaven.

 

[Tawhano]

MormonFriend asked:
Please enlighten me as to what 1 Cor. 15:41&42 is talking about.

To understand those verses one must first understand it was a comment made in debating whether or not the dead were raised up or not and if they did what body would they be raised in.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Paul was explains it this way:

1 Corinthians 15:36-37 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

Paul goes on to explain that God has created different bodies for different purposes in His creation.

1 Corinthians 15:38-39 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

Not just in living beings but in organic bodies as well.

1 Corinthians 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

So there are different bodies and each body has it’s own glory (doxa). The glory of the living things is one type of glory and the glory of the celestial (epouranios) things have their own glory.

doxa
glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

epouranios
above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

1 Corinthians 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

Paul explains that everything, even the stars, have their own glory. He explains that the glory of the heavens is broken down into each individual body that has it’s own glory. And he says that in the same way that everything has a different body with it’s own glory that is how we will be raised from the dead. In a new body which has it’s own glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So you see Paul isn’t speaking about different degrees of salvation but how God has given everything a body and that body has it’s own glory. Paul concludes that when we die our earthy bodies are turned to dust and a new body is raised from the death of the old one just as it is with seeds. Our earthy bodies will serve us no more and we will be given new incorruptible bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So how do you interpret those verses?

 

[Tawhano]

Just as I predicted, provide scriptures and it’s as if you turned the lights on in the kitchen late at night.

 

[MormonFriend]

Just as I predicted, provide scriptures and it’s as if you turned the lights on in the kitchen late at night.

Sorry, and don't quit your day job to predict the weather or anything else. I just saw your post tonight. I'll get back to it, too tired!

 

[Tawhano]

MormonFriend
Sorry, and don't quit your day job to predict the weather or anything else. I just saw your post tonight. I'll get back to it, too tired!

I apologize for my impatience. I am getting used to my post being ignored when I post scriptures. I guess I thought this was just going to be another of the same. I need a little more work on my patience skills, such as they are.

 

[skylark1]

Tawhano,

I don't think that you have a problem with your patience. Your posts are ignored more often that not. You have a habit of addressing the issues, and not the people, and using scripture to support your point of view. Besides that, you are always calm, rational, and polite. Yet it seems that some would rather complain about the non-LDS that post here, than respond to someone who I think exemplifies how we should all post.

 

[Tawhano]

Why, Thank you skylark1

 

[Ran77]

Tawhano,

I don't think that you have a problem with your patience. Your posts are ignored more often that not. You have a habit of addressing the issues, and not the people, and using scripture to support your point of view. Besides that, you are always calm, rational, and polite. Yet it seems that some would rather complain about the non-LDS that post here, than respond to someone who I think exemplifies how we should all post.

Based on what Skylark has had to say I would like to pursue discussion of this topic with Tawhano sometime in the near future - when I have enough time to respond appropriately.