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Originally posted by webboffin
There are many theories all respectfully plausable in their own right though there are some a little bazaar but it is a tough question to crack. Maybe untestable.
Originally posted by Outspoken
"But which times? "
When he wills it. No, I am not calling for a gaps principle, so please don't build that strawman. What I am saying is that there is, in certain places flaws in theories. In those places you can choose to think either 1. the theory is true and there is a "gap" of info you will get later in time or 2. the theory could be wrong due to some reason science can't explain (ie a supernatural occurance). Its current knowledge for anyone that is a christian that science cannot enter the realm of the supernatural, it is not the right tool, thus inlies your answer.
Originally posted by webboffin
Budoka, you have to try harder than that explaination. Since when is it solid sound theory that there was no before Big Bang and no pre-universe?
Science has not gone that far.
Originally posted by Outspoken
"that is god-of-the-gaps. Pure GOTG, in fact. Insert God into places where science can't explain."
NO, its a lack of science. Science is not the right tool for the job, that's the problem. Its not a "gap" its a falure of tool problem.
Not the way you are using it. You said:
What I am saying is that there is, in certain places flaws in theories. In those places you can choose to think either 1. the theory is true and there is a "gap" of info you will get later in time or 2. the theory could be wrong due to some reason science can't explain (ie a supernatural occurance).
See? A "gap in info". That is not a problem with science, but simply the data you have on hand at the time.
Now, your next sentence:
Its current knowledge for anyone that is a christian that science cannot enter the realm of the supernatural, it is not the right tool, thus inlies your answer.
You are correct that science cannot test directly for action of the supernatural. It's called methodological materialism and arises directly from how experiments are done. But that is separate from saying that there is, in certain places flaws in theories Methodological materialism has nothing to do with any possible flaws or lack of data in an specific theory.
"if God really had stopped the rotation of the planet to let Joshua continue the battle, the heat generated by doing that would melt the planet."
I'd love to see the paper on that one.
It's easy enough to calculate. Take the rotational energy and transfer that to the motion of the molecules that make up the earth. You end up with motions of the molecules that correspond to a couple of thousand degrees centigrade.
"then you have made God into a deceiver. A liar."
Not at all. there are many recorded instances where cancer was there, then it was gone. This doesn't make God a liar at all, its called a miricle (ie an very unprobable event happening).
This is not the same thing. Disappearing cancer (if it is indeed done by deity) is not covering up a consequence that would be there if deity had acted. Here the consequence is the absence of cancer. What you are describing is the actual detection of a miracle.
In the case I brought up of Joshua, the consequence would be a molten earth. Covering up that consequence (hiding God's action) is actually covering up the miracle by another one so that it appears that God did not act. That is deception.
That creationism makes God a deceiver has been around for 150 years.
In 1844 a pamphlet entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, espousing an evolutionary viewpoint, was published. In response Philip Gosse, an minister in the Fundamentalist group called the Plymouth Brethren, wrote Oomphalos, published in 1857. In it Gosse made the first written argument that creation only LOOKS old. In it, Gosse even argued that Adam and Eve had navels because that is what one would expect in God-created creatures.
Gosse expected Oomphalos to be attacked by scientists. What he should have expected, but didn't, was the denunciation by the religious community. Asked to write a review of Oomphalos, his friend Charles Kinglsey, a minister and author of Westward Ho! refused and wrote the following letter to Gosse.
"You have given the 'vestiges of creation theory' [the pamphlet discussed above] thebest shove forward which it has ever had. I have a special dislike for that book; but, honestly, I felt my heart melting towards it as I read Oomphalos. Shall I tell you the truth? It is best. Your book is the first that ever made me doubt the doctrine of absolute creation, and I fear it will make hundreds doso. Your book tends to prove this - that if we accept the fact of absolute creation, God becomes God-the-Sometime-Deceiver. I do not mean merely in the case of fossils which pretend to be the bones of dead animals; but in ...your newly created Adam's navel, you make God tell a lie. It is not my reason, by my conscience which revolts here ... I cannot ...believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for al mankind. To this painful dilemma you have brought me, and will, I fear, bring hundreds. It will not make me throw away my Bible. I trust and hope. I know in whom I have believed, and can trust Him to bring my faith safe through this puzzle, as He has through others; but for the young I do fear. I would not for a thousand pounds put your book into my children's hands." Garret Hardin, "Scientific Creationism'" - Marketing Deception as Truth" in Science and Creationism edited by Ashley Montagu, 1982.
BTW, Kingsley was one of the first ministers to accept evolution after Origin was published. Because Darwin solved this crisis of faith that creationism created.
Originally posted by King of Wishful Thinking
Long before the theory of evolution came to be traditional Christianity went into decline because people found so many holes in it. That's how deism got started, which eventually led to atheism.
Originally posted by Outspoken
[BYour loaded language is quite inapproprate though. [/B]
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