Tithing

[YahwehLove]

That doesn't answer my questions.

I would appreciate it if you would just answer my questions in the post.

Better yet, just answer this: were Y'shua, Sha'ul and the Apostles Torah-observant Jews?

you tell me.

Now it came to pass on the first Sabbath of the second month that He was going through the grainfields. And His disciples were picking the heads of grain and were eating them, rubbing them in their hands. But some of the Pharisees said to them, "Why do you do what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?"

But Jesus answering them said, "Have you not even read this, what David did when he became hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered into the house of God, took and ate the showbread, and also gave some to those with him, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat?" And He said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(Luk 6:1-5)

Something I note there is that Jesus didnt say ''youre wrong'' or ''you are misinterpreting the law'' as a defense.

He seems to be in agreement with them that His disciples are doing something unlawful on the sabbath in his defense of them by using Davids eating the showbread which wasnt lawful either.
Was Jesus a lawbreaker?
Did He condone His disciples breaking of the law?
Or did the law pass with the coming of Johns preaching baptism for the remission of sin as scripture shows?

The Law and the Prophets were until John; from then the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
(Luk 16:16)

John came baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for remission of sins.
(Mar 1:4)

 

[muffler dragon]

you tell me.

Y'shua, Sha'ul and the Apostles were Torah-observant Jews.

Something I note there is that Jesus didnt say ''youre wrong'' or ''you are misinterpreting the law'' as a defense. He seems to be in agreement with them that His disciples are doing something unlawful on the sabbath in his defense of them by using Davids eating the showbread which wasnt lawful either.

Since you ignored Andy's statements earlier, I'm sure this will be nothing but fruitless. Anyway... are you familiar with Oral Torah? Oral Torah is a set of traditions that allows for interpretation of the Written Torah over time. Oral Torah will explain such things as "what is work on Shabbat?", "how to perform an animal sacrifice", "how to kill an animal in a kosher manner." so on and so forth. The majority of what Y'shua dealt with when he was here was correcting people's interpretations of Written Torah. Or in not so many words, he corrected Oral Torah.

Lastly, regarding the showbread and other things like that. In Judaism, any mitzvoh may be broken in order to save a life. There are stipulations to that statement, so don't take it as a blanket. But that is more or less the consideration behind David and the showbread.

Was Jesus a lawbreaker?

If Y'shua changed/deleted/added anything to the Torah, then he would be a FALSE Messiah. Therefore, you tell me if you believe he was a lawbreaker.

Did He condone His disciples breaking of the law?

See above statement.

Or did the law pass with the coming of Johns preaching baptism for the remission of sin as scripture shows?

Your rhetorical question is offered in ridicule.

One thing to keep in mind: if the Torah passed away with Yochanan's preaching of baptism; then the majority of Y'shua's words and actions are void of meaning. And furthermore, you would be espousing a FALSE Messiah.

 

[YahwehLove]

Y'shua, Sha'ul and the Apostles were Torah-observant Jews.



Since you ignored Andy's statements earlier, I'm sure this will be nothing but fruitless. Anyway... are you familiar with Oral Torah? Oral Torah is a set of traditions that allows for interpretation of the Written Torah over time. Oral Torah will explain such things as "what is work on Shabbat?", "how to perform an animal sacrifice", "how to kill an animal in a kosher manner." so on and so forth. The majority of what Y'shua dealt with when he was here was correcting people's interpretations of Written Torah. Or in not so many words, he corrected Oral Torah.

Lastly, regarding the showbread and other things like that. In Judaism, any mitzvoh may be broken in order to save a life. There are stipulations to that statement, so don't take it as a blanket. But that is more or less the consideration behind David and the showbread.



If Y'shua changed/deleted/added anything to the Torah, then he would be a FALSE Messiah. Therefore, you tell me if you believe he was a lawbreaker.



See above statement.



Your rhetorical question is offered in ridicule.

One thing to keep in mind: if the Torah passed away with Yochanan's preaching of baptism; then the majority of Y'shua's words and actions are void of meaning. And furthermore, you would be espousing a FALSE Messiah.

Sorry, but the text is plain.
I probably didnt ignore andys post, but may not have agreed with it.

The fact remains that Jesus used Davids breaking of the Law in His defense when all He had to do was explain the situation.

The FACT is that the scripture shows very clearly the the Law and the prophets WERE until John.

The fact is the Jews are practicing a covenant that no longer exists.

you have ignored every piece of scripture I have offered so I assume you no longer need to respond to my posts.

You say that the law may be broken to safe a life, So why didnt JESUS just say that?
AND WHY didnt the pharisees KNOW that?
Werent THEY more knowledgable about their own law than you or andy are?


.

 

[YahwehLove]

One thing to keep in mind: if the Torah passed away with Yochanan's preaching of baptism; then the majority of Y'shua's words and actions are void of meaning. And furthermore, you would be espousing a FALSE Messiah.

This is absurd. It makes no sense.
with YOUR understanding of scripture He might be a false messiah, but with my understanding it is all very harmonious.
He is the Son of God. Not some cornerstore rabbi.

Please just make your assertions and then support them.

 

[muffler dragon]

My short summary of the situation.

IF the Temple were still standing, and IF the Levitical priesthood were still in operation within the Temple, and IF they were still not allowed to own property or livestock; THEN how do you suppose that they would live?

Would you like to go back through Scripture and evaluate the purpose of the tithe?

The purpose of the tithe is irrelevant.

How it worked, who it supported, how it was implemented....its all irrelevant now.

You try to speak as on educated on a particular Jewish doctrine and yet you refuse to look at the purpose. Amazing. Nothing like removing context. Your work of eisegesis is ridiculous. One cannot expect to win an argument without looking at the entire picture (context). Without context, you have nothing.

Temple => Levitical Priesthoods perform services => Levitical Priesthoods can't own property or livestock => Tithe instituted for sustenance of Levitical Priesthood.

Therefore, if the Temple is destroyed, there remainder of the logic arrows falls apart. Therefore, the efficacy of the Mosaic Covenant is outside of this picture.

Numbers 18
20Then the LORD said to Aaron, "You shall have no inheritance in their land nor own any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the sons of Israel.


21"To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the tent of meeting.


22"The sons of Israel shall not come near the tent of meeting again, or they will bear sin and die.


23"Only the Levites shall perform the service of the tent of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the sons of Israel they shall have no inheritance.


24"For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.'"

As can be seen above, the Levites performed the service of the tent of meeting (which would later become the Temple). The Levites also received the L-rd as their inheritance instead of a portion of land. Therefore, they could neither raise livestock nor receive produce from the field.

Therefore, the following can be deduced:

If the Levites no longer perform Temple service, because the Temple is not there; THEN they are no longer bound to the L-rd as an inheritance. They are free to raise livestock and receive produce from the field. And furthermore, the tithe is no longer needed because of this new ability by the Levites.

I have discussed the purpose of the tithe: who it was for, why it was implemented, and the parameters surrounding it. I have sufficiently stated through this thread (and others) why the tithe is irrelevant today. All superflous discussions now cease from my interaction. I will continue to point back to this post.

 

[YahwehLove]

I have discussed the purpose of the tithe: who it was for, why it was implemented, and the parameters surrounding it. I have sufficiently stated through this thread (and others) why the tithe is irrelevant today. All superflous discussions now cease from my interaction. I will continue to point back to this post.

And now you see why a formal debate would have been a waste of time

I understand the purpose of the tithe and how it worked.
Now if I could just get you to accept the very clear scripture that shows that that covenant has passed we could move on.

All you been sufficient at is showing the way the tithe worked UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.

 

[YahwehLove]

Regarding Israels (the nation) current state:

I say then, Did not God put away His people? Let it not be said!

For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew.
Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they killed Your prophets and dug down Your altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life." But what does the Divine answer say to him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Even so then, also in this present time a remnant according to the election of grace has come into being. But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened even as it is written, "God gave to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not seeing, and ears not hearing" until this day.

And David said, "Let their table become for a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see, and their back always bowing."


I say then, Did they not stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their slipping away came salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.

But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default is the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness? For I speak to you, the nations; since I am the apostle of the nations, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke those who are my flesh to jealousy, and might save some of them.

For if their casting away is the reconciling of the world, what is the reception except life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, also the branches.

And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you. You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

Do not be high-minded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either! Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive-tree?

For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.
And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins." Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes.

But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief, even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy.

For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaidto him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen.
(Rom 11:1-36)

 

[muffler dragon]

I understand the purpose of the tithe and how it worked.
All you been sufficient at is showing the way the tithe worked UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.

The purpose of the tithe is irrelevant.

How it worked, who it supported, how it was implemented....its all irrelevant now.

I think you answered this for me.

 

[YahwehLove]

I think you answered this for me.

Well, I wanted to make a comment, but you seem to have went back thru the thread for some reason and put "+" in place of most of your comments, so I have no idea where one of your statements was at.

I wanted to present something to you about the new covenant.
You remarked earlier that the new covenant was for Isreal (the nation), would you care to re-explain this for me a bit?
If you care to continue this, I have a point to make and will give scripture to back it up, but I need what you presented earlier.

one question tho, why did you go back thru the thread and delete so much of your posts?

 

[muffler dragon]

Well, I wanted to make a comment, but you seem to have went back thru the thread for some reason and put "+" in place of most of your comments, so I have no idea where one of your statements was at.

I wanted to present something to you about the new covenant.
You remarked earlier that the new covenant was for Isreal (the nation), would you care to re-explain this for me a bit?

If you care to continue this, I have a point to make and will give scripture to back it up, but I need what you presented earlier.

one question tho, why did you go back thru the thread and delete so much of your posts?

I deleted all tangential remarks. It is a reportable offense to skirt so far from an OP. Therefore, I suggest we discuss the tithe, and that be it.

During the night, I realized that you and I are on polar opposites. I've been in your shoes before, and held your beliefs. However, I no longer do. Therefore, I think it best to stay within the realm of the OP for respect of the original poster and for all that see this thread.

 

[YahwehLove]

I deleted all tangential remarks. It is a reportable offense to skirt so far from an OP. Therefore, I suggest we discuss the tithe, and that be it.

During the night, I realized that you and I are on polar opposites. I've been in your shoes before, and held your beliefs. However, I no longer do. Therefore, I think it best to stay within the realm of the OP for respect of the original poster and for all that see this thread.

Well, indirectly our discussion has a lot to do with the tithe.
from your pov of view, it would still be intact if the Temple stood.
From mine, it passed with Jesus death ratifying the New Covenant.

I dont think it was necessary to delete everything you typed.
We've been on a side topic that would directly affect ones view of the tithe and the whole law actually.
If they could warn you over anything youve done in this thread, then Im in the wrong forums here for discussion.

 

[FreeSpiritFaith]

Tithing is not what is important to god, and this situation makes me mad. That pastor was screwing you over. The bible says that pastors are not supposed to expect money for their services. They can ask for donations, but they are not to require payment. I will find the scripture to prove this. Tithing is not needed for any gift of God. Thats why they are gifts. I would like to give this so called pastor a piece of my mind. Seek a pastor that REALLY serves God.

 

[muffler dragon]

Tithing is not what is important to god, and this situation makes me mad. That pastor was screwing you over. The bible says that pastors are not supposed to expect money for their services. They can ask for donations, but they are not to require payment. I will find the scripture to prove this. Tithing is not needed for any gift of God. Thats why they are gifts. I would like to give this so called pastor a piece of my mind. Seek a pastor that REALLY serves God.

Dear FreeSpiritFaith:

I think you'll find more than enough support for a non-tithing situation on this thread.

If you would like some more details, I would be more than willing to assist you.

m.d.

 

[Unnamed Servant]

I have tried to read most of those post of this topic, but have not read all.

I was wondering if anyone had talked about how if our lives are given over to Christ, our desires and possesions will follow.

Do I think tithing is biblical? Not necessarily, I believe if you are a true believer of Christ you have given him control of everything, including all of your money.

Your heart will be shown by how you used what God has blessed you.

I personally believe, from my relationship with Christ, that if you Love the lord and not his blessings, you will give above and beyond 10%, because of your love for his work and the advancement of his ministry.

Love-In-Christ,

Unnamed Servant

 

[muffler dragon]

I was wondering if anyone had talked about how if our lives are given over to Christ, our desires and possesions will follow.

That's kind of a side-light consideration to the OP. See, I have no problem with offerings or almsgiving. My beef is with the present-day tithe doctrine.

I believe if you are a true believer of Christ you have given him control of everything, including all of your money.

Your heart will be shown by how you used what God has blessed you.

Pretty solid points.

 

[YahwehLove]

I have tried to read most of those post of this topic, but have not read all.

I was wondering if anyone had talked about how if our lives are given over to Christ, our desires and possesions will follow.

Do I think tithing is biblical? Not necessarily, I believe if you are a true believer of Christ you have given him control of everything, including all of your money.

Your heart will be shown by how you used what God has blessed you.

I personally believe, from my relationship with Christ, that if you Love the lord and not his blessings, you will give above and beyond 10%, because of your love for his work and the advancement of his ministry.

Love-In-Christ,

Unnamed Servant

amen
TRUE New covenant giving

 

[deu58]

Hi all

I am pretty discouraged with what I see in the churches these days so I chose to manage my own tithes dirictly, We give to the poor and needy and help where we can in the community always making sure the recepients understand that they are receiving this not because we are so wonderful but because this is how Jesus wants us to behave towards one another,

We usually wind up with lots of people also coming to us for bible studies to learn more about Christ because of this also,

I am sure we are giving{ I really do not keep track} enough because lots of our Christian friends think we are pretty stupid because of how much we give out and how many poor people are always at our house,

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[YahwehLove]

Hi all

I am pretty discouraged with what I see in the churches these days so I chose to manage my own tithes dirictly, We give to the poor and needy and help where we can in the community always making sure the recepients understand that they are receiving this not because we are so wonderful but because this is how Jesus wants us to behave towards one another,

We usually wind up with lots of people also coming to us for bible studies to learn more about Christ because of this also,

I am sure we are giving{ I really do not keep track} enough because lots of our Christian friends think we are pretty stupid because of how much we give out and how many poor people are always at our house,

yours in Christ
deu58

ONe of the biggest issues with churches having a compulsory tithe, in addition to its not being of this new covenant, is that it doesnt take into account those people who not only shouldnt be giving their childrens food money away, but they themselves should be on the churches list of people to help.
In all my years in church, not one time at a point of need did the church I was in come to my aid.
I did go to a Presbyterian (not even MY church) or something at one point years back when I was unemployed for a short bit and they paid a gas bill for me that was about to be shut off.

I decided, like you, to manage my money myself.
If I see someone in need, I can help them directly and immediately without them having to go thru the process of going to the church and dealing with red tape just to get $100 for food or something.

If someone needs bibles or clothes or gas or rent money, they can be helped quicker by Jesus' followers if they cant give money immediately.

I have a friend, and have heard many say to give it to the church then they will disperse it as needed.
Hogwash.
It goes many times for new pews and carpet instead of feeding the poor in my opinion.

Ill continue to do it this way for the rest of my life.
If I am wrong God will deal with me directly, but praise Him that there might be one less hungry person on the planet for a while.

 

[paeonia]

You are saying exactly what I mentioned above....I agree wholeheartedly with yuo it just makes sense.... (although I think my post went unnoticed for the most part due to all the heated debate in here)

IMO....and it is just MO:

People have ALWAYS looked for measuring sticks in which to use for the purposes of "legally" measuring whether they are pleasing God or not.

To put a cash dollar amount on giving is the "easy" way out and IMO a very legalistic approach to giving to your fellows and to God.

NO one knows for sure where the money goes that they tithe, leaving it in someone else's hands whether it is used for good or not. There is more deceipt in this world than ever, so you CAN'T know.

I prefer the direct approach. I give what I can of everything -not just $$, but time, energy, my ears, my hands, my home....you name it.

NOW...If I were legalistic I would be looking for ways in which to measure how much of myself I'm giving -a mathmatical calculation perhaps- (which totally defeats the purpose and intention behind the giving) and I could never really measure how much of these above mentioned things (time, energy...) I have given.....so wouldn't that leave me feeling insecure and unsure if I'm pleasing God and doing enough?

Therfore I should just "resort" to giving a 10% cash dollar amount...so I could keep track of what I'm giving....

uh..no THANKS.

That measuring stick is the purpose behind the OT tithe. It is NOT what Jesus came to teach. It's just plain wrong. God can't be bought.

Why don't people get this?

 

[YahwehLove]

You are saying exactly what I mentioned above....I agree wholeheartedly with yuo it just makes sense.... (although I think my post went unnoticed for the most part due to all the heated debate in here)

The man who preaches the gospel is permitted to make his living from the gospel. And it says let the elders who rule be worthy of a double-honor.
I do believe in the body of christ supporting their teachers and servants so that they arent emcumbered with menial secular jobs and can focus strickly on the gospel.

But somewhere along the line that idea got way out of control.
I have a specific year and a specific man in mind as to who to blame, but it would surely cause this thread to go off track again.

If every christian chipped in to provide for the elders and pastor so they could live properly, and then we were always ready with open hands with the rest that we could give to the needy, I daresay that there wuoldnt be any hungry on the streets of the United states at least.
And in my opinion, that is the way it should have been.