Tithing!

[David64]

If you're saying, by what you're implying here, that those who are called least in Heaven may not be among the saved in that Kingdom, then you must also say the same about those who are called great in that same Kingdom.

It's one way or the other for both. You can't split them apart as opposites.

How can anyone assume that those who would be called great in Heaven are cast out?

Do you see the problem in your reasoning?

BTW

What I see is the poroblem with your lack of reasoning.

 

[dies-l]

I tithe and I encourage others to do so, because I have been blessed by it. But, I would never want anyone to feel compelled or coerced into tithing. So, the simple answer for me is this: consider the entire biblical record on tithing and giving, ask God for guidance, and give (or don't give) as you desire. Whether it is a tithe, or some other amount, our gifts to God should be a product of our own desire, led by a grateful heart, not out of obedience with some law or compliance with some standard.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Because this thread is about tithing. The word tithe means 10%; there is no reason at all why a person can't decide to give 10% of their income to God, (whether they believe that giving to God means giving to his people, to charities or to the church). But it is not commanded in the NT that we do so.
Titihing as described and commanded in the OT is not what we practice today.

Well , you begged the question by repeating what you already wrote . That's fine . I withdraw the question .

 

[Strong in Him]

Well , you begged the question by repeating what you already wrote .

Sorry.
I usually write on here last thing at night (as now), or first thing in the morning. Either way, I probably have my brain in gear even less than usual.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I know, but these things are important too. And while it wouldn't worry me if we sold our building tomorrow, hired a place to worship and used the money for something else, for a number in our congregation, our building is important, a part of their life and heritage and makes them feel secure. It is also widely used by the community.

The needs of the building should NEVER overshadow the needs of fellow believers. The importance of the building in the hearts of some will never change the priorities the Lord Himself established:

(Mat 25:40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The early church sold their belongings and used the money for the poor; I know, I've already said that.

Woops! Let's hold up the good-ship lollypop, here.

Nowhere does it say all the believers sold everything they had and gave to the needy. That would make no sense.

Think about it: What good would it have done for all the believers to impoverish themselves out into the gutters and alleyways, with no homes, and only to become burdens themselves upon everyone else?

I've seen and heard charismatics claim that all the believers in those passages are said to have sold everything and given it away. That simply isn't true.

It seems they lived in a community and met in each others homes for worship - that too is different than today.

Not at all. There are a number of Christian communities around the country with believers living a communal life together. I'm helping to start one here in the Oklahoma City area.

But this thread is about tithing. There is nothing in the NT which says that they continued to tithe after the resurrection. The only teaching about tithing comes from the OT where it was always produce that was given - 10% carried to the temple, offered to God by the priest and then eaten as way of celebration. Not forgetting the priests and the poor.
It seems that even though 10% of produce was set aside and dedicated to God, it was eaten, enjoyed and shared by his people.

Yes, and nowhere does the OT state that wage earners, like almost ALL of us, handed over a tithe to anyone. That's one of those nasty little truths pro-tithe hounds would rather not ever be brought out into the light of day.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

What I see is the poroblem with your lack of reasoning.

The fact that you presented nothing as a rebuttal speaks loud volumes in itself...

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

...the simple answer for me is this: consider the entire biblical record on tithing and giving,

Been there and done that. That same biblical record shows not ONE wage earner like ourselves handing over a tithe to anyone. Abraham handed over a portion of the spoils (soneone else's property) to Melchizedek, and those who owned producing lands, herds and/or flocks handed over a tenth of the increase to the Levites, the fatherless, the widows and the strangers.

Why? Simply stated: Wages are an EXCHANGE, not an increase as defined within scripture.

Asking God for guidance on something that's so obvious, right there in scripture, won't always yield forthcoming answers for those who don't take the time to read it for what it says without the colored glasses and blinders of religion and its false teachings.

BTW

 

[David64]

The fact that you presented nothing as a rebuttal speaks loud volumes in itself...

BTW

There is nothing to rebutt.

 

[Frogster]

 

[BeforeThereWas]

there are some here on the forum that don't believe in being born again, or that there is heaven...

Yeah. I see what you mean.

Some people do nothing more than hit-and-run tactics, negating what is said, then claiming they don't have to defend their negations.

Oh, well.....NEXT?

BTW

 

[dies-l]

Been there and done that. That same biblical record shows not ONE wage earner like ourselves handing over a tithe to anyone. Abraham handed over a portion of the spoils (soneone else's property) to Melchizedek, and those who owned producing lands, herds and/or flocks handed over a tenth of the increase to the Levites, the fatherless, the widows and the strangers.

Why? Simply stated: Wages are an EXCHANGE, not an increase as defined within scripture.

If that is the conclusion that you come to after careful deliberation and prayer, then that is your answer. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I believe that the NT notion is that giving (and tithing) is a voluntary practice of gratitude, not a legalistic practice of doctrine. And, so there is little benefit to be had if I try to parse out a concrete theology of giving.

Asking God for guidance on something that's so obvious, right there in scripture, won't always yield forthcoming answers for those who don't take the time to read it for what it says without the colored glasses and blinders of religion and its false teachings.

BTW

Honestly, the first clue that I have that someone has not seriously studied the Scriptures is when they say that the answer to a contentious issue is "obvious in Scripture". If it were obvious, it would not be so contentious among bona fide believers. I have studied the Scripture and come to a different conclusion, but the conclusion that I come to is really only influential to my decision making. If there is one thing I have learned from Scripture, it is that I need to tread very carefully before trying to impose my understanding of Scripture onto others.

The problem is that both sides of the debate can be very harsh, judgmental, and downright legalistic towards those who will not tow the line. I would simply say that if you tithe because you feel that you have to, your are doing it for the wrong reason. If you don't tithe, because you feel that it is not allowed, you are doing so for the wrong reason.

To all believers, I would say this, give what you want, not a penny more or a penny less. When Christ grabs hold of you, your desire and His will become more and more aligned each day.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Sorry.
I usually write on here last thing at night (as now), or first thing in the morning. Either way, I probably have my brain in gear even less than usual.

No problem . Like I said , a lot of problems would be solved in "tithe" threads if the OP made sure to clarify which definition they were using . :

 

[New_Wineskin]

If that is the conclusion that you come to after careful deliberation and prayer, then that is your answer. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I believe that the NT notion is that giving (and tithing) is a voluntary practice of gratitude, not a legalistic practice of doctrine. And, so there is little benefit to be had if I try to parse out a concrete theology of giving.

I have not noticed a "NT notion is that tithing is a voluntary practice of gratitude" . I haven't noticed a NT notion on tithing in any way .

Honestly, the first clue that I have that someone has not seriously studied the Scriptures is when they say that the answer to a contentious issue is "obvious in Scripture". If it were obvious, it would not be so contentious among bona fide believers.

*That* was obvious to me , as well .
It would be better to say that it is obvious to them .

I have studied the Scripture and come to a different conclusion, but the conclusion that I come to is really only influential to my decision making. If there is one thing I have learned from Scripture, it is that I need to tread very carefully before trying to impose my understanding of Scripture onto others.

Very good .

The problem is that both sides of the debate can be very harsh, judgmental, and downright legalistic towards those who will not tow the line. I would simply say that if you tithe because you feel that you have to, your are doing it for the wrong reason. If you don't tithe, because you feel that it is not allowed, you are doing so for the wrong reason.

I would say that , on *this* issue , the real problem is that there are several definitions of "tithe" and the debate usually begins without the one starting it making sure that the debate was about one particular definition of "tithe" . In that way , anyone coming in midstream could easily be steered back to the actual topic .

To all believers, I would say this, give what you want, not a penny more or a penny less. When Christ grabs hold of you, your desire and His will become more and more aligned each day.

I completely agree . That is what most say who discuss the topic with respect to the "tithe" not being for Christians .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

If that is the conclusion that you come to after careful deliberation and prayer, then that is your answer.

May I ask, what other answer is there from scripture? Are you suggesting the Bible says different things to different people? If so, that's the very definition of subjectivity rather than letting scripture speak for itself.

Granted, we can point at two different preachers who teach opposing views on many of the same things from the Bible, but one or both can be demonstratably proven wrong since they can't both be right.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is you're saying.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I believe that the NT notion is that giving (and tithing) is a voluntary practice of gratitude, not a legalistic practice of doctrine.

Ok. That's a start.

What is it you disagree with? Do you think you've found a place in the Bible where wage earners tithed...those who owned no producing lands, herds and/or flocks?

And, so there is little benefit to be had if I try to parse out a concrete theology of giving.

I agree that giving whatsoever one purposes in his heart is indeed scriptural.

On the flip-side, I disagree with those who teach and practice handing the largest, primary portion of their giving over to an institutional church organization since most of them routinely rob God.

Honestly, the first clue that I have that someone has not seriously studied the Scriptures is when they say that the answer to a contentious issue is "obvious in Scripture". If it were obvious, it would not be so contentious among bona fide believers.

Because there is contention among people of opposing views doesn't mean the issue isn't clear within scripture.

There are those who question the Deity of Christ Jesus, even though it's clearly portrayed within scripture.

What, then, does that say?

Answer: Simply stated, it means that many people will hold, with tenacity, to a belief no matter what the Bible or anything else says.

There's nothing earth-shakingly new or novel about that.

So, if you think there is an example or a commandment of wage earners handing over tithes, then I'd very much like to see it...if you don't mind sharing it.

I have studied the Scripture and come to a different conclusion, but the conclusion that I come to is really only influential to my decision making.

At least you seem to have found something you consider concrete.

What is it?

If there is one thing I have learned from Scripture, it is that I need to tread very carefully before trying to impose my understanding of Scripture onto others.

There's no danger of you imposing anything upon anyone else here. A computer screen offers no threat nor compulsion for anyone to follow anyone else's lead or beliefs.

So feel free to share.

The problem is that both sides of the debate can be very harsh, judgmental, and downright legalistic towards those who will not tow the line.

Do you always live in fear of what others might think? Of what are you REALLY afraid?

People are going to think and say what they want, so go ahead and say your piece.

I would simply say that if you tithe because you feel that you have to, your are doing it for the wrong reason.

I agree.

If you don't tithe, because you feel that it is not allowed, you are doing so for the wrong reason.

Not allowed?

Please explain.

I;ve never heard anyone state that tithing is not allowed. That's a new one on me.

BTW

 

[Frogster]

Yeah. I see what you mean.

Some people do nothing more than hit-and-run tactics, negating what is said, then claiming they don't have to defend their negations.

Oh, well.....NEXT?

BTW

i call em drive-by posts, just sorta potshots, NEVER SCRIPTUTE.. jusT shot-n-run.

 

[Frogster]

What I see is the poroblem with your lack of reasoning.

post scripture...

 

[dies-l]

May I ask, what other answer is there from scripture? Are you suggesting the Bible says different things to different people? If so, that's the very definition of subjectivity rather than letting scripture speak for itself.

Granted, we can point at two different preachers who teach opposing views on many of the same things from the Bible, but one or both can be demonstratably proven wrong since they can't both be right.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is you're saying.



Ok. That's a start.

What is it you disagree with? Do you think you've found a place in the Bible where wage earners tithed...those who owned no producing lands, herds and/or flocks?



I agree that giving whatsoever one purposes in his heart is indeed scriptural.

On the flip-side, I disagree with those who teach and practice handing the largest, primary portion of their giving over to an institutional church organization since most of them routinely rob God.



Because there is contention among people of opposing views doesn't mean the issue isn't clear within scripture.

There are those who question the Deity of Christ Jesus, even though it's clearly portrayed within scripture.

What, then, does that say?

Answer: Simply stated, it means that many people will hold, with tenacity, to a belief no matter what the Bible or anything else says.

There's nothing earth-shakingly new or novel about that.

So, if you think there is an example or a commandment of wage earners handing over tithes, then I'd very much like to see it...if you don't mind sharing it.



At least you seem to have found something you consider concrete.

What is it?



There's no danger of you imposing anything upon anyone else here. A computer screen offers no threat nor compulsion for anyone to follow anyone else's lead or beliefs.

So feel free to share.


Do you always live in fear of what others might think? Of what are you REALLY afraid?

People are going to think and say what they want, so go ahead and say your piece.

I am going to pass, not because I am afraid of anything, but because I have participated in enough of these debates to know that this one is an exercise in futility. If I thought you were sincerely interested in why I believe that tithing is both good and biblical, I would be happy to share with you. But, this thread (as are most on this topic) is about arguing for the sake of arguing. And, that is something that is clearly unbiblical.

I;ve never heard anyone state that tithing is not allowed. That's a new one on me.

BTW

Then, you must be new to the tithing debates here on CF . I have yet to see a tithing debate in which there is not at least one person who claims that those who voluntarily tithe are subjecting themselves to law and therefore condemned by it. This is a fancy Christianese way of saying "not allowed".

 

[sunlover1]

Let's settle this thing once and for all.

Seriously, let's discuss it and share what we understand about
tithing. When it began, why it was practiced, when/if it was discontinued.

And fight NICE guys.


Thanks.
I'll begin.
Up until recently, I had tithed for the past 20+ years.
LAtely I have not been "tithing" because some folks here
convinced me that it MIGHT not be a good thing to do.
(went through the same thing with tongues a few years
back too. Stopped praying in tongues because of what
people here said )

So for me, this is a very serious issue.

Thanks in advance.
SL

I am going to pass, not because I am afraid of anything, but because I have participated in enough of these debates to know that this one is an exercise in futility. If I thought you were sincerely interested in why I believe that tithing is both good and biblical, I would be happy to share with you. But, this thread (as are most on this topic) is about arguing for the sake of arguing. And, that is something that is clearly unbiblical.

That truly wasn't my intention, as you can see by my OP above.
But I do understand what you mean and I hate ridicule tactics in any discussion.. although I'm sure I've been a bit of a smart alec at times.

Then, you must be new to the tithing debates here on CF . I have yet to see a tithing debate in which there is not at least one person who claims that those who voluntarily tithe are subjecting themselves to law and therefore condemned by it. This is a fancy Christianese way of saying "not allowed".

And "not allowed' smacks of law .. if you will ... or if you want to lol.
I was hoping for a more scholarly thread, for some reason.

 

[dies-l]

That truly wasn't my intention, as you can see by my OP above.
But I do understand what you mean and I hate ridicule tactics in any discussion.. although I'm sure I've been a bit of a smart alec at times.

I didn't mean that to be directed towards you. I believe that you are sincere in your inquiry, which is why I decided to participate in the thread, albeit in a limited way.

And "not allowed' smacks of law .. if you will ... or if you want to lol.
I was hoping for a more scholarly thread, for some reason.

Yeah, I wish there was a way on CF that we could have discussions like these in an area where confrontational style debate is not allowed, and we can stick to biblical and logical arguments without an infusion of emotion and drama.

 

[sunlover1]

I didn't mean that to be directed towards you. I believe that you are sincere in your inquiry, which is why I decided to participate in the thread, albeit in a limited way.

Thanks for your participation and I can't blame you for keeping
it limited

Yeah, I wish there was a way on CF that we could have discussions like these in an area where confrontational style debate is not allowed, and we can stick to biblical and logical arguments without an infusion of emotion and drama.

That would be helpful.