Tithing!

[GaryArnold]

Lets try out God; lets test him. Make silence deffending the tithe and see if it is actually God operating in men harts.

Here's the problem with what you suggest:

IF you "try out" God, or "test" him, then you lack faith that He WILL provide. If you have to try it to see if it will work, there is no faith.

I know of a pastor who has all tithers get in a line. In other words, the tithers get recognized. One minister complained and asked that he stop having the tithers get in a line in front of the congregation. He said he would try it for a couple weeks or so. Donations went DOWN, so he went back to having the tithers get in line.

TWO problems with that case. First, if donations went down, then some were tithing ONLY to get recognition by being able to stand in line in front of the congregation. They were giving for the wrong reason. Second, the pastor obviously lacked faith that God would provide. If you lack the faith, they why should He provide?

IF you have the faith, God will provide. IF you have to test Him, you may or may not be pleased with the results.

These tithing-teaching pastors lack faith that God will provide. No point in them testing Him. They already show their lack of faith. They would have to believe that God will provide if they turn the finances over to Him. Testing Him proves lack of faith.

One pastor told me that a study was done to see if they stopped teaching tithing what would happen. He said the study showed that less contributions came in when they stopped teaching tithing. OF COURSE DONATIONS WENT DOWN. They wouldn't have needed this study if they had FAITH that God would provide.

I have yet to attend a church where the pastor knew how to correctly teach good financial stewardship. I have yet to attend a church where the church leaders practice good financial stewardship with the money donated to the church. And I have attended a few churches where the church leaders, including the pastor and ministers, were themselves in deep financial debt. All these churches taught tithing as being required today. Just shows their lack of Biblical knowledge when it comes to money and finances.

 

[Don Oscar]

Sorry..I was not meaning my own words; it a words game with those calling Malachi as testing God. The point is that God is to provide; and God is not providing by tithers. Tithers are not the respond for God operation in harts, but pastors operatipons. Pastor shall trust is God and stop by good talking of tithing. Not only that; ehoever continues to deffend tithe in this thread is because he is admiting that without that defence, tithers will stop tithing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is nice to know your personal opinion; but I believe that this thread is not about personal feelings or thots; but about biblical doctrine. IMO the Bible teach that Christians can not answer to God´s love by giving money. IMO this is insulting the price He paid in the cross. Also IMO it is a easy way to get away from our responsabilities and compromises...by giving money we free our selves from giving us selves.

It's nice to know your personal opinion, as well. Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We are to give no question.
But tithing is not about giving, tithing is like paying your rent, it is payed, offerings are given.
Two totally different things.

In England and, later in the English colonies, Dissenting (non-Anglican) churches typically raised their support by renting out pews. Not all pew rents were equal and better pews commanded higher rents. For those who could not afford the annual pew rent, standing room in the galleries (balconies) was available. This meant, in practice, racial segregation because blacks (free or slave) could not afford pew rents.

This custom was first broken in Boston when, in 1828, a congregation was formed with the radical idea of offering all pews for free to any who would attend. Naysayers quickly condemned the notion as radical and foolhardy because nobody would free give their hard-earned money to such a church. However, the church thrived and continues to this day as the Tremont Temple Baptist Church, still with free pews for all.

 

[New_Wineskin]

i hear ya loud-n-clear!

Some churhces even say, "tithes AND offerings", they wanna really milk it for all it's worth.

Whoa !! Flashback .

There was a group I was in that would bring speakers in . They then would ask for an offering for that speaker and say "This is outside of your usual tithes and offerings" . Looking at it now , I just realized that they had someone else do their jobs and still wanted paid as well as us paying for the guest speakers *they* invited .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Amen. Why do you call tithing "law" though?
Can't someone tithe without it being law?
I know one can because I've given for many years
and not as an "obligation" but as a blessing.
What a blessing to ME to give to God's people!

That is why , in my first post , I mentioned that , without stating the definition of tithe used for the thread , it would cause confusion .

Usually in a tithe thread , people come in and discuss it with at least four definitions . When one person posts on one definition , another responds using a totally different definition making no sense in light of what was stated in the previous post

 

[Frogster]

Whoa !! Flashback .

There was a group I was in that would bring speakers in . They then would ask for an offering for that speaker and say "This is outside of your usual tithes and offerings" . Looking at it now , I just realized that they had someone else do their jobs and still wanted paid as well as us paying for the guest speakers *they* invited .

lol..bad flashback too!

Yeah, all to familiar...pride and flesh..Paul saw that money collectors felt like they were oh sooo worthy by their "collections", praise/glory confirmed it.




1 Thess 2:6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ. 7But we were gentle[c] among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children. 8So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.
9For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. 10You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.

 

[Don Oscar]

What is not an opinion, but scritural doctrine is that christians can not tithe. We have to keep this on mind. Teaching and practicing tithe is a sin in rebelion against the Holy Spirit.

 

[98cwitr]

I'd rather give my money to the poor than pay a pastor's near six figure salary. jm2c.

 

[Super Kal]

is it any biblical support for what you are doing?

Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Let us not give to the Church as in following some rule of thumb, for the thumb is flesh and we must follow the Spirit in faith or faith will become debris.

Please pray that I may follow, and that all of us may persevere.

 

[Jig]

Christians are not called to tithe, we have the freedom to give as much as we want - whenever we want.

 

[Sarrapin]

SL,

There is nothing in the New Testament about a set portion or percentage of your gross income that you need to set aside. St. Paul does seem to suggest in 1 Corthians 16:2 that it is the congregation's responsibility to provide financially for its leaders and the ministries that the church undertakes when we writes that "on every Lord's Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering."

Suffice it to say that tithing can NEVER (again for emphasis: NEVER) be considered a sin as some have suggested. It is absurd to suggest that it could be. How can giving of an amount to the cause of Christ be considered a sin? God forbid it! Whatever the amount, whatever the portion - either fixed or variable - we are told to "give cheerfully" (2 Corinthians 9:7). Whatever God puts on your heart, give. Don't let people judge you because you only give 10% at church, especially if that's all you can afford to give, if your heart is joyful when you give it then it's just the same to God as someone who can afford and gives 20%. It's all about the heart and what God places on your heart.

The whole point of grace is that we don't have to give a set percentage. It isn't about the percentage. The Israelites had to give the minimum tithe. It's up to us if we want to give and what we choose to give. If you want to exercise that freedom and grace to give 10% and you feel that it is what God is asking of you then go for it. Do it with the right heart and it's all good.

For me personally, I try to keep to the 10% of gross wages as a minimum for the collection at church (as I go to a bigger church) and then give an extra amount for other missions work (like Bible League) and Christian organisations (like Mercy Ships).

 

[GaryArnold]

SL,
There is nothing in the New Testament about a set portion or percentage of your gross income that you need to set aside. St. Paul does seem to suggest in 1 Corthians 16:2 that it is the congregation's responsibility to provide financially for its leaders and the ministries that the church undertakes when we writes that "on every Lord's Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering."

Suffice it to say that tithing can NEVER (again for emphasis: NEVER) be considered a sin as some have suggested. It is absurd to suggest that it could be. How can giving of an amount to the cause of Christ be considered a sin?

1 Corinthians 16:2 in no way suggests that it is the congregation's responsibility to provide financially for its leaders, etc. Read the previous verse:
1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

The collection was FOR the saints, and a further study shows it was FOR THE POOR SAINTS. In other words, the collection Paul is talking about was a collection for the poor, not to support any ministry.

To say that tithing can never be a sin is to not understand the scriptures. IF you are trying to tithe ACCORDING TO THE LAW, and you take that tithe to the church instead of the Levites, you have sinned. You have been disobedient to God's command in Numbers 18.

Can GIVING a tenth of your income ever be a sin?
1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” So if you give a tenth of your income to the church and then don't have enough left to provide for your own family, you are WORSE THAN A NON-BELIEVER.

OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

The New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left. Ever hear that in church? I doubt it.

Roger Williams, founder of the Baptist Church in the USA, once said that if we ever get to the point of having career pastors who depend on donations for their living, they may have the wrong motives when they preach about money. Of course I have paraphrased what he said. Roger Williams did say that there would NEVER be tithing in the Baptist Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1 Corinthians 16:2 in no way suggests that it is the congregation's responsibility to provide financially for its leaders, etc. Read the previous verse:
1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

The collection was FOR the saints, and a further study shows it was FOR THE POOR SAINTS. In other words, the collection Paul is talking about was a collection for the poor, not to support any ministry.

To say that tithing can never be a sin is to not understand the scriptures. IF you are trying to tithe ACCORDING TO THE LAW, and you take that tithe to the church instead of the Levites, you have sinned. You have been disobedient to God's command in Numbers 18.

Can GIVING a tenth of your income ever be a sin?
1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” So if you give a tenth of your income to the church and then don't have enough left to provide for your own family, you are WORSE THAN A NON-BELIEVER.

OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

The New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left. Ever hear that in church? I doubt it.

Roger Williams, founder of the Baptist Church in the USA, once said that if we ever get to the point of having career pastors who depend on donations for their living, they may have the wrong motives when they preach about money. Of course I have paraphrased what he said. Roger Williams did say that there would NEVER be tithing in the Baptist Church.

Did the First Baptist Church in Providence, Rhode Island (the one Roger Williams founded) rent its pews like all the other churches of the time did?

 

[GaryArnold]

Did the First Baptist Church in Providence, Rhode Island (the one Roger Williams founded) rent its pews like all the other churches of the time did?

I don't know without doing more research. Many Baptist Churches today do NOT collect the tithe, but rather collect freewill offerings only. At Liberty University (Baptist college) they currently are teaching future Baptist pastors that tithing is not a requirement of the New Testament.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't know without doing more research. Many Baptist Churches today do NOT collect the tithe, but rather collect freewill offerings only. At Liberty University (Baptist college) they currently are teaching future Baptist pastors that tithing is not a requirement of the New Testament.

Thanks!

 

[Frogster]

SL,

There is nothing in the New Testament about a set portion or percentage of your gross income that you need to set aside. St. Paul does seem to suggest in 1 Corthians 16:2 that it is the congregation's responsibility to provide financially for its leaders and the ministries that the church undertakes when we writes that "on every Lord's Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering."

Suffice it to say that tithing can NEVER (again for emphasis: NEVER) be considered a sin as some have suggested. It is absurd to suggest that it could be. How can giving of an amount to the cause of Christ be considered a sin? God forbid it! Whatever the amount, whatever the portion - either fixed or variable - we are told to "give cheerfully" (2 Corinthians 9:7). Whatever God puts on your heart, give. Don't let people judge you because you only give 10% at church, especially if that's all you can afford to give, if your heart is joyful when you give it then it's just the same to God as someone who can afford and gives 20%. It's all about the heart and what God places on your heart.

The whole point of grace is that we don't have to give a set percentage. It isn't about the percentage. The Israelites had to give the minimum tithe. It's up to us if we want to give and what we choose to give. If you want to exercise that freedom and grace to give 10% and you feel that it is what God is asking of you then go for it. Do it with the right heart and it's all good.

For me personally, I try to keep to the 10% of gross wages as a minimum for the collection at church (as I go to a bigger church) and then give an extra amount for other missions work (like Bible League) and Christian organisations (like Mercy Ships).

Like gary Arnold said, 2 Cor 8-9 was for the poor of Jerusalem, 8;4, 9;1, 9;12, yet tithe teachers use those passages, to get money for themselves.


You quoted 1 cor 16;2, yet in the NIV it says, keeping with income, NKJV as ye prosper, NRSV out of extra. Paul was gracious, yet tithe teachers demand it every Sunday, 10% off the gross income.

Keep in mind, 16;2, was not a life long verse was it? No, it was for said the gathering if the GIFT, not compulsion. It was not for the rest of the Corinthians lives.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Like gary Arnold said, 2 Cor 8-9 was for the poor of Jerusalem, 8;4, 9;1, 9;12, yet tithe teachers use those passages, to get money for themselves.


You quoted 1 cor 16;2, yet in the NIV it says, keeping with income, NKJV as ye prosper, NRSV out of extra. Paul was gracious, yet tithe teachers demand it every Sunday, 10% off the gross income.

Keep in mind, 16;2, was not a life long verse was it? No, it was for said the gathering if the GIFT, not compulsion. It was not for the rest of the Corinthians lives.

Did anyone mention yet that a rather high percentage of those in the groups that agree with the 10% tithe don't do so ? Once again , those that demand that certain things *must* be done don't do it themselves .

 

[Frogster]

Did anyone mention yet that a rather high percentage of those in the groups that agree with the 10% tithe don't do so ? Once again , those that demand that certain things *must* be done don't do it themselves .

yup, and the bad economy has tested them!