Tithing

[norbie]

Nrobie your comment brings an interesting question - what does it mean when Jesus says he came to fulfill the law? I have read the scripture but never questioned what it meant

Sorry my Dear, I was a little away with my job. Now about '..come to fullfill the law'. Look in Mat 5:17 for the wording. Jesus come to fullfill God's law and not mens law, think about the pharisees. Like you will read a little later on, the washing of hands for example - this is men's law, pharisees law. The judish law is gone - but God's law is there and we call it the old Testament, and is a very valid and important part of the Bible.
I am not very good in explaining, but I hope I could help a little bit. A typical example is in the NT were Jesus told us, you shall love your God... and second you shall love your neighbor...and here it is the upholding of the law: because Jesus also said, if you love me - you will keep my commandements. And they are written in the OT. I hope that I make some sense with this,
Norbie

 

[tigercub]

Yes and no. The two are inseparably linked, and yet there is a distinction between loving God and loving neighbour.

Yes there is a distinction between loving God and loving your neighbour, but giving in the name of God is different (in practise, not in intent, hopefully)
Is not everything given in the name of God is given directly to God?

Let's clarify. There is your 'local church' and the 'living church of Christ'. They are not the same thing. Very much not the same thing..

2 Cor 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

We are free to give in the NT, not forced as in the OT. This can be a wonderful thing, because we can choose where our money/time effort goes. We can give with a loving spirit! After all, only those who are giving from their faith will be honored by the Lord. Money given through alternate means (peer pressure, attonement for sins etc) is never going to produce Godly works. (James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?)

Do not misunderstand me, I am not searching for loopholes. I don't attend church (Neenie- I shall PM you) What I am looking to do is figure out which/where is the best way/place to give.

 

[thelordsprincess]

In the OT, God only wanted 10%, however in the NT, Jesus said to go and sell all your possessions. Food for thought...

 

[emmanemena]

My church just finished another 4 week study on giving. So I'll give you a little run through of my new understanding on giving.

Basically what I got out of it was that 10% is a general number to follow for anyone who doesn't know how much to give. It's a place to start, some people might be able to give 15% and still be able to live comfortable now and be right for retriement but other may only be able to do the same when they tithe 8%.

Also, one thing that really struck me was that when Jesus came to earth he fulfilled the law and he changed the way we should be living, he taought that it is no longer an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but love your neighbour as yourself, love your enemies etc. Jesus raised the bar for many of the old laws. We should all be encouraged to give more than 10% (the Old Law standard) which is why I signed up for the 90 day over 10% giving promise our church started. We are to give more than 10% of our earnings for 90 days and if we are sure that we have not been blessed in that time we can get the money back (yes that did cause a stir amongst the members).

I do agree that sometimes our modern churches seem to spend far too much money on things that seem extravagent and if you feel your church may be one of them thyen perhaps you could give part of your tithe to them (to pay for pastor salaries etc) and give the rest of the tithe to a governing body (for example the Baptist Union etc) that will be able to distribute it to the churches who really need it.

 

[norbie]

We are to give more than 10% of our earnings for 90 days and if we are sure that we have not been blessed in that time we can get the money back

Now this has to be a 'super modern Church' - 90 days warranty, if not satisfied your money back. 'am I allowed to ask what kind of Church you are in?

 

[John Spong is wrong]

Most churches expect it to some degree, and all will accept it. It is Gospel, according to most, that 10% is what God requires us to give to our church.

But is it really? I found a verse used by those who believe tithing (as most modern churches use it) is required.

Genesis 14

Then Melchizadek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything (Genesis 14:18-20).

I can see why they use that one, it'd work if you give someone just that verse alone. Reading a bit more however...in verses 22-26 of Genesis, it is clear that Abram doesn't own any of what he just gave away.

There are other verses that mention tithing; such as Genesis 28:20-22, in which Jacob makes a very conditional promise to give 10%. Things like "If God feeds me, clothes me and return me safely to my father's house' My thought on that is; "God- give me a Maserati- then I shall give you 10% of my earnings..."

I can fully understand why tithing was neccessary in the Old testament. They had to pay the Levites (like the Public Service in Israel) Tithing was more like a tax I suppose? Then the Levites paid the Priests too. There were other 'taxes' also called tithing.

This next bit is from a site I found, the url of which I've forgotten but I shall try to find it for anyone who asks.



Personally, I like this verse;

Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). So if you feel the need to give money to your church, give what you want, not what they want. Otherwise your gift is pretty much worthless in God's eyes.

That said, mightn't we be better serving to Christ by giving to a reputable charity? Rather than ensuring church leaders can afford things like; a new sound system for the Santuary, the entry fee for a sporting compition for church-members, or matching robes for the choir. Do those things actually matter? If so, do they matter as much as; starving children, natural disaster relief, or even contributing to research funds for a cancer cure...?

Absolutely fantastic post Tigercub! I have used 2 Corinthians 9:7 for years (having abandoned tithing long ago). I don't advertise my views too widely though in case I get labelled a heretic.

 

[ebia]

We are to give more than 10% of our earnings for 90 days and if we are sure that we have not been blessed in that time we can get the money back

Now this has to be a 'super modern Church' - 90 days warranty, if not satisfied your money back. 'am I allowed to ask what kind of Church you are in?

Struck me as a bit wierd too. It's somewhat ironic that the very act of this organisation putting its faith in God is to almost encourage its members not to.

 

[Monarchist]

I am a Christian led by the Holy Spirit, not by a law.
If a poor person can not afford to Tithe (Yours is the Kingdom of Heaven) is our God going to shun them.
What is the purpose of Tithing? To Receive?
If I understand correctly somebody gives only to receive a profit?
Guaranteed by the Church in Gods name? Forget God and invest in Bank Shares.
You have received Grace as a gift and hope for Mammon as a payment.

The poor in that Church who cant participate get no Blessings?

I am a Christian, therefore I have no condemnation because of Christ.
Even if I choose not to give.

 

[Cooch]

Pardon if I make a couple of points.
In ref to the NT....
-The widow who gave her mite was not giving a tithe, she was giving everything. It was a fine thing that she did, but her example does not support a requirement on everyone to give everything, or any specific amount which varies from what she gave.
- It was not - as far as we know - the whole church in Acts that held everything in common. It was only the church in Jerusalem of which this was said. The normal pattern in the NT Church was that those who had, gave,,, and those who needed, received.

In ref to the OT.
- Abraham tithed on the spoils of war (OK, next time I go to war and loot a town or two, I'll tithe on that.)
- Israelites were not commanded to tithe on income, but on the produce of the land. The land which was the "Promised Land",, also a spoil of war, held as being given to them directly by God. Yes, I am aware that Israel was primarily an "agrarian" society, yet it had tradesmen (such as carpenters) artisans and various professions, and yet no-where are these people commanded to tithe on their income of the fruit of their hands. Only the fruit of the land. I do not consider this to be an absolute answer to the issue of tithing, but it should make us thoughtful.
- We have no known descendants of Levi to whom we may bring our tithes.
- It is a rare church in which we might obey the commandment to eat our own tithe before the Lord.

Also, as a farmer I attempted to follow the biblical tithe for some years. Which is a tithe on my turnover, not my income. To put it bluntly, I was not blessed, and ceased tithing when the options available to me were to cease tithing, or rob men by not paying my bills.
Note that I do not make doctrine from my experience, but experience did cause me to re-examine the scripture.
No support for tithing in the NT.
No support for tithing by gentile wage-earners in the OT.

A couple of other thoughts.
A tithe is not a way of buying God's favour ... yet it would be if God automatically blessed us in return.
A tithe would not be a gift if God automatically gave back to us as much or more than we gave to him.
A tithe is not a gift if it is paid as result of an obligation. To be a gift it must be free of that.

Regards......... Peter

 

[norbie]

It's just something you give to keep your church alive, you know they got also great expenses, insurance, wages, cars, power, water and so on. Don't expect anything in return.
Now this was the whole cause why the Lutheran Church come up: Money for the forgiveness of sin.
So forget about the return and help pay your churches bills. But if you are not "Rockefeller" you can help reduce the bills in helping with cleaning, building maintenance and so on.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

I have an answer to this, I just have to find the verses, so I'm bookmarking this for now

 

[Jenafer]

A fool and his money are soon parted.. donations should be given as an act of free will.. if the giver has a mind to donate and can afford to donate..

 

[ebia]

I thought I'd post this, which passed my way recently:

Six Steps in Christian Living

1. Survival
(I give a bit when I can)
2. Supermarket
(I pay for the bits I enjoy)
3. Support
(The Church is important and I'll support it)
4. Subscription
(I see myself as a member and pay my dues)
5. Submission
(I am a disciple with all that involves)
6. Sacrifice
(I am called to be Christ-like and act accordingly)

 

[tigercub]

I thought I'd post this, which passed my way recently: Six Steps in Christian Living

1. Survival
(I give a bit when I can)
2. Supermarket
(I pay for the bits I enjoy)
3. Support
(The Church is important and I'll support it)
4. Subscription
(I see myself as a member and pay my dues)
5. Submission
(I am a disciple with all that involves)
6. Sacrifice
(I am called to be Christ-like and act accordingly)

That's more of a 'list of rules' you might find in your church bulletin, than theological/Christian discussion, isn't it?

I mean, it's not a Biblical quote or anything....

 

[atheliah]

my husband and I dont attend church very often. But we receive a daily devotional called 'The word for today' http://www.thewordfortoday.com.au

and we tithe to them. $15 a month.

I think u give what u can. God understands, and as long as we are giving with the right attitude, He is pleased!

 

[suzeequeue]

i was on the main forums page and i saw this heading.. tithing... and THEN after reading it, i realized it was in the Australia section. i hope i can still post even tho i am not Australian! forgive me if i'm not supposed to; just wanted to share my tithing experience.

i go to a Nazarene church and at my church, almost everyone tithes, but our pastor does not preach on tithing. i think everyone there just loves the Lord and feels led to give. it is my understanding that tithes go to your "church" and anything given beyond that, say to charity, or volunteer work, and whatever giving you might do above and beyond tithing is called "offering."

a few years ago, my hubby decided we would tithe anonymously, so now we give cash and put no name on it, just mark it tithe. at first, i didn't want to do this, because i wanted our pastor and church family to know we were tithing. but it's really between us and God, isn't it? my husband's heart was in the right place and mine wasn't, but we are happy to tithe to God and give offerings as we are able. i don't feel it's my duty. i feel it is from love.

i challenge EVERYONE to tithe and just see if God doesn't open the floodgates of blessings, because He will! isn't this the only place in the Bible where we are told to "test God" (in regard to tithing). when we started tithing, it was because of a missionary story i read about a lady in africa. her name was Busiswe and she had a little baby that was extremely ill. the baby was in the hospital for months and the docs told Busiswe that once her baby came home, his only hope for continued recovery was nutritious food. Busiswe saved every cent during the months her little boy was in the hospital and after saving months on end, she had 11 cents. this apparently was enough to feed her son nutritious food for a time.

shortly before her son was to come home from the hospital, her church had an alabaster offering, and she felt God telling her to give her "all." all 11 cents. she argued with God, saying, but my child will die. i have worked months to save this money and i HAVE to have it for my son to live. but gently the Lord impressed upon her heart to give her all. so she eventually did.

a short time later, her pastor (a Nazarene missionary) lost his secretary and was praying about a replacement. the Lord told him to hire Busiswe. so as secretary, Busiswe now made $20 a month, a far cry from the pennies she had received before, and her baby received all the nutrition he needed from the Lord's hand.

well i decided if Busiswe could give her all, then the least i could do was tithe . as we began to tithe, my husband was out of work, things could not have been worse financially, but we stepped out in faith and God blessed us ABUNDANTLY more than we could have expected. bags of groceries would appear on our porch just as we were out of $$ and didn't know how we were going to feed our family. anonymous money was sent to us. an insurance check came to us a couple of years late! it was one blessing after another after we started to tithe. God is SO good to us.

in contrast, my mom's church, which has like 4000 members--they don't tithe. their church is so broke, they have to charge for Sunday school. or at least they say they are broke. how do i know? but i have NEVER heard of any other church charging the parents for Sunday school. doesn't that sound like a crime to you? it does to me.

well that's my 2 cents worth. tithing has been a huge blessing in my life. may God lead us each in giving to Him and to His works in this lost world.

 

[Girly3302]

Most churches expect it to some degree, and all will accept it. It is Gospel, according to most, that 10% is what God requires us to give to our church.

But is it really? I found a verse used by those who believe tithing (as most modern churches use it) is required.

Genesis 14

Then Melchizadek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything (Genesis 14:18-20).

I can see why they use that one, it'd work if you give someone just that verse alone. Reading a bit more however...in verses 22-26 of Genesis, it is clear that Abram doesn't own any of what he just gave away.

There are other verses that mention tithing; such as Genesis 28:20-22, in which Jacob makes a very conditional promise to give 10%. Things like "If God feeds me, clothes me and return me safely to my father's house' My thought on that is; "God- give me a Maserati- then I shall give you 10% of my earnings..."

I can fully understand why tithing was neccessary in the Old testament. They had to pay the Levites (like the Public Service in Israel) Tithing was more like a tax I suppose? Then the Levites paid the Priests too. There were other 'taxes' also called tithing.

This next bit is from a site I found, the url of which I've forgotten but I shall try to find it for anyone who asks.



Personally, I like this verse;

Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). So if you feel the need to give money to your church, give what you want, not what they want. Otherwise your gift is pretty much worthless in God's eyes.

That said, mightn't we be better serving to Christ by giving to a reputable charity? Rather than ensuring church leaders can afford things like; a new sound system for the Santuary, the entry fee for a sporting compition for church-members, or matching robes for the choir. Do those things actually matter? If so, do they matter as much as; starving children, natural disaster relief, or even contributing to research funds for a cancer cure...?

Someone posted this a while back and I copied it. It addresses all the arguments made for tithing.

THE THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF TITHING.

1. Tithing was a pre- Mosaic Law because Abraham tithed.
Was Abraham commanded by God to tithe? Did Abraham tithe only one time? Did Abraham tithe his personal property or just the spoils of war? Read Gen 14:20, Hebrews 7:3-5 If we follow all the examples of Abraham should we also practice polygamy, give burnt offerings and practice circumcision? Did Abraham teach his children to always tithe? If Abraham taught his children to tithe why did Jacob make a proposal to God?
He would tithe only if God would bless him first with good fortune. Read Gen 28:22

2. Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe their spices.
Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus also told the leper he cured to offer burnt offerings as Mosaic Law commanded.

Luke 5:14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Exodus 10:25, 20:24

Why do no Christian churches today offer burnt offerings as sacrifices?

Why did Jesus on these two occasions recommend keeping Mosaic Law?
Was it because the leper and the Pharisees were still under Mosaic Law until the crucifixion of Christ? Galatians 4:4

Was the life of Jesus the fulfillment of The Law and his dying on the cross the abolishment of The Law? Colossians 2 16 Are we now under the new covenant of Grace? Romans 6:14 Ephesians 2:8

Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law”

3. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Written before the crucifixion of Christ] [Dictionary: Fulfill: 1.To measure up to; satisfy. 2.To bring to an end; complete]
If the law has not been abolished should we still practice all 613 Old Testament laws including tithing? What does the word “fulfill” imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.”
Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:

Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”

Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”

Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:2 “ I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?”

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).

Galatians 5:3 “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.”

Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Romans 7:2-4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant laws?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?



Additional notes


Even Jewish Rabbis who follow the old covenant today refuse to collect tithes. Why? Only direct descendants of Levites are permitted to collect tithes according to the law and the temple in Jerusalem with all the genealogy records was destroyed. Hebrews 7: 5 Deuteronomy 18:1, 26:12

Who are the new priests of Christ and where is their temple? Is every single believer is now a priest?

1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:9

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
There are more Old Testament scriptures on tithing implying that there are three tithes resembling a taxation system, [Deut. 14 26-29] and that tithes are to be eaten, [Deut.14: 22-26]. Do any modern tithing churches eat their tithes as the bible commands?

Note: In relation to Deut14: 22-26. Some churches claim food was tithed because ancient Israel was an agricultural society and there was no money to tithe. Is this true?
Genesis 17:12

“For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.”

New Testament instructions on giving:

2 Cor 9:7-10 “Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

2 Cor 8:13-15 “ I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, "The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little."

1 Corinthians 16
The Collection for God's People
1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
James 1:27 “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Galatians 5: 4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

Note: Please read all scriptures quoted here in their complete context to have a better understanding of God’s word. A more complete study by a theologian and pastor can be found at: http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/