Tithing

[tigercub]

Most churches expect it to some degree, and all will accept it. It is Gospel, according to most, that 10% is what God requires us to give to our church.

But is it really? I found a verse used by those who believe tithing (as most modern churches use it) is required.

Genesis 14

Then Melchizadek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything (Genesis 14:18-20).

I can see why they use that one, it'd work if you give someone just that verse alone. Reading a bit more however...in verses 22-26 of Genesis, it is clear that Abram doesn't own any of what he just gave away.

There are other verses that mention tithing; such as Genesis 28:20-22, in which Jacob makes a very conditional promise to give 10%. Things like "If God feeds me, clothes me and return me safely to my father's house' My thought on that is; "God- give me a Maserati- then I shall give you 10% of my earnings..."

I can fully understand why tithing was neccessary in the Old testament. They had to pay the Levites (like the Public Service in Israel) Tithing was more like a tax I suppose? Then the Levites paid the Priests too. There were other 'taxes' also called tithing.

This next bit is from a site I found, the url of which I've forgotten but I shall try to find it for anyone who asks.

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).

Here we have the tithing teachers’ favourite verse in the whole Bible. On this verse they hang most of their doctrine. But if we take a close look at the verse, we will find something very interesting.
Remember that there were four tithes in Israel under the Old Covenant. Which one is referred to here?

And the priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse (Nehemiah 10:38).

[ Note: The word ‘storehouse’ is translated as ‘treasure house’ in the KJV. The Hebrew is the same in both Nehemiah and Malachi, outsair, meaning a treasure or a store house. ]

Which of the four tithes is in view in Malachi?
The tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi is not rebuking the people, he is rebuking the Levites.
When our modern day tithing teachers point this verse at the people, they are really pointing at themselves — except that most of them are too ignorant to recognise the fact.


If you want to understand the book of Malachi, read Malachi 4:4, “Remember the Law of Moses…” That is the whole thrust of Malachi.
But we do not live under the Law, we live under the grace provided in Jesus Christ. If you choose to submit yourself to even part of the Law of Moses, you have a problem.
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to perform them” (Galatians 3:10).
If you choose to place yourself under the works of the Law, you are under a curse for the simple reason that you cannot keep the Law of Moses. Your fallen, sinful nature will see to that.
The purpose of the Law is to act as our tutor, or “school master”, to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24).

So basically, it was Moses' law at the time that required tithing. But...we don't live under that Law any longer. So we tithe because...?

Personally, I like this verse;

Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). So if you feel the need to give money to your church, give what you want, not what they want. Otherwise your gift is pretty much worthless in God's eyes.

That said, mightn't we be better serving to Christ by giving to a reputable charity? Rather than ensuring church leaders can afford things like; a new sound system for the Santuary, the entry fee for a sporting compition for church-members, or matching robes for the choir. Do those things actually matter? If so, do they matter as much as; starving children, natural disaster relief, or even contributing to research funds for a cancer cure...?

 

[J23]

Surely there's something else about tithing in the NT... how about the widow giving her last coin? Jesus said that was good, despite the fact that it was probably paying the Pharisees' salaries.

Another thought: if most giving went to other charities, would churches cope financially?

 

[Zaphod_Beeblebrox]

Personally I believe that most organised 'churches' today are not following the example of the NT anyway, so there is no reason to finance them.

 

[Neenie1]

Personally I believe that most organised 'churches' today are not following the example of the NT anyway, so there is no reason to finance them.

That is exactly how my husband sees things.


We haven't tithed for an awful long time, mainly because my husband doesn't believe in it, but he is not a regular churchgoer and thinks that it would be a waste of money.

We do believe in being generous and give things that we no longer need, as well as money donations on a regular basis. If we know someone is in need we do what we can to help them out, whether it be babysitting their kids, or cooking a meal, or even buying them some groceries, or helping pay their bills if we can afford it at the time. (we have been able to do this in the past but we are going through a hard financial time ourselves)

 

[sparassidae]

I am really confused about the attitude lots of people on CF seem to have about giving money to the church. Maybe it's because all the churches I have been to have been wise with the money that is given.

Money given each week is used for:

• church workers salaries- I have no problem with church workers being paid for their work (although next year DH won't be ). The amount they are paid is not excessive, but is enough to live on.

• church running costs- electricity, water, phone, stationery etc. Don't have a problem with this.

• church activities- kids club craft and afternoon tea, subsidies for communal meals etc. These are all activites to advance the gospel, so I think it appropriate to help pay for them.

So unless I was going to a church that was embezzling the money (and I wouldn't stay at that church long anyway ) then I have no problem with giving at least 10%. I don't think of the tithe in an OT way, but 10% is usually a good starting point to get you thinking about what you can give.

And you know what? Although we are certainly not well off, we still give to charities regularly, support children through World Vision, cook meals/help out financially to those we know who are in need.

I guess we view it as money that God has entrusted us with. Some we use for ourselves, some we give to others.

 

[aspartamefree]

To add to sparassidae's post, there is more biblical support for financially supporting ministry.

Galatians 6:6 : "Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor"

The context of Galatians 6 is Christian community, looking after each other. Verse 2 says "carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."

I would say that our pastors teach us, and bear the burden of theological education (which is a significant financial sacrifice) and in turn we bear the burden of their living expenses.

If you're happy with paying your pastor (and remember that the Lord Jesus says "The worker deserves his wages" Matt10:10) but are unhappy about other purchases your church makes, then get involved with the parish council (or equivalent), because they are the people who decide how money is spent.

If your church has an abundance of money, then suggest that the church supports mission work in other parts of your area, plants a church, supports a village in Africa, or something. My experience in my own life is that if I don't set aside money for ministry then I will simply waste it on other things. I suspect I am not alone in this.

 

[Monarchist]

Gday
The Old Testament is the Jewish law- for Jews. That bit about 10% is a Jewish law. Christ freed us from the Law.
If you feel like donating 10% to the church,do that. Remember the facilities you use cost money.
If you feel somebody is in need of money in your church (be very careful), help them, helping a Brother or Sister is the same as helping Christ.
I was challenged not to tithe in church and make sure people saw me not put money in the collection. That is harder for me to do than pay an offering to the church, I dont want friends to think me a miser.

Be wise with your money-giving it wrongly is as bad as not giving.

and 1 more thing- God will bless you because he loves you, weather you give him 1% or 100%. He said so.

 

[norbie]

Hi Monarchist, and welcome to the Aussie Forum.
But may I have a little input in your statement:
The Old Testament is the Jewish law- for Jews. That bit about 10% is a Jewish law. Christ freed us from the Law
NO, Jesus didn't free us from the Law and the Old Testament: he came to fullfill it! We must believe the whole Bible, old and new testament.

 

[tigercub]

So unless I was going to a church that was embezzling the money (and I wouldn't stay at that church long anyway ) then I have no problem with giving at least 10%. I don't think of the tithe in an OT way, but 10% is usually a good starting point to get you thinking about what you can give.

Well you see, most people don't share the fact that they are embezzling money. It's usually pretty secretive. For awhile anyway

And you know what? Although we are certainly not well off, we still give to charities regularly, support children through World Vision, cook meals/help out financially to those we know who are in need.

That was only very slightly a dig at me wasn't it? JK.

Anyway I am specifically talking about tithing, not charitable donations outside of one's own church. Though, the latter could prove more beneficial to those less fortunate in the long run.

As important as Fellowship is, do we actually need ; 'a totally awesome drum kit for the band', or even 'new plush pews'? None of these things have anything to do with creating/deepening our relationship with God or teaching the Gospel to members, let alone reaching out and spreading the Gospel to those outside one's own church.

Have we become so materialistic and 'comfortable' that we now consider donations toward such things to come before; feeding the hungry, washing the dirty, or clothing the cold? Let's face it, even with no band and hard pews, most church attendees in Western society aren't hungry, dirty or cold. Not for the most part anyway.

 

[ebia]

Surely there's something else about tithing in the NT... how about the widow giving her last coin? Jesus said that was good, despite the fact that it was probably paying the Pharisees' salaries.

Another thought: if most giving went to other charities, would churches cope financially?

They wouldn't. "The labourer deserves to be paid" (and buildings maintained, bills settled, ...) and that can't happen unless the laity gives generously. Let's not forget that the New Testament model of the Christian community in Acts is holding all wealth in common . Compared to that tithing is trivial.

Of course, there will always those who don't want to give generously and look for 'loopholes' to justify that, and one might draw conclusions about what that says about them.

 

[tigercub]

Of course, there will always those who don't want to give generously and look for 'loopholes' to justify that, and one might draw conclusions about what that says about them.

Sticks and stones mate....sticks and stones.

For the record, My husband and I don't attend a church. We give regularly to a reputable charity. I had refrained from posting both of these facts previously because I did not think them relevant. Your personal attack on me has proved otherwise.

 

[Monarchist]

Hi Monarchist, and welcome to the Aussie Forum.
But may I have a little input in your statement:
The Old Testament is the Jewish law- for Jews. That bit about 10% is a Jewish law. Christ freed us from the Law
NO, Jesus didn't free us from the Law and the Old Testament: he came to fullfill it! We must believe the whole Bible, old and new testament.

Hi Norbie
Thanks for the welcome.
So I have been a terrible sinner. I have eaten Pork, Shellfish and countless other non kosher foods. Never accepted that "eye for an eye" teaching either, in fact I have even turned the other cheek. Circumcision? I dont pay much heed to any of the laws in Leviticus cos Christ taught forgiveness not Revenge
Romans 10-4 Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
I am not Jewish, my high Priest is Christ and I am indebted to him not the Law.
or
I live under the Grace of God as an obedient servant not under the Law.

 

[Neenie1]

I don't understand why asking questions about tithing is looking for loopholes not to give.

To be honest Tiger cub I wouldn't be concerned about tithing if you don't go to church regularly?


Why is it you don't go to church?


I have had many problems with our church in the past, and my husband still doesn't like to come to church regularly, but I have made the decision that even though sometimes I may disagree with other people and some people there get up my nose, I will just forgive them and move on. Even though at times I would like to leave our church I have decided that if I left I would find the same problems elsewhere so that is why I stay.

 

[Neenie1]

Nrobie your comment brings an interesting question - what does it mean when Jesus says he came to fulfill the law? I have read the scripture but never questioned what it meant

 

[Godschick]

I think there needs to be more faith if you are unwilling to give. I decided I was too small to do anything about my finances. I started tithing & some weeks I might only give $20, but for me $20 was massive - it wasn't 10% but God saw that I was willing to hand my finances over to him.
I didn't doubt him. In the second or third week of tythying God gave me $14,000 from complete strangers! - I'm not saying that happens to everyone that fast, but I know if he sees a willing and joyful heart he'll reward you.
I was a single mother of two children, one who was severely disabled. I was struggling financially because I got no financial assistance from the government. So I knew after this God was working in my life.
Since then I have just had blessing after blessing. I totally trust God with my money. No matter what it is being used on.
You really need to get your attitude right (i'm talking to everyone here) if you want God to be happy with you and bless you. I don't think there's any point in giving if you feel like you have to and feel annoyed while doing it.
There is just no point.

BUT if you do it and trust in God 100% like I do, then he WILL reward you.
I now give 10% to my church and sponser a child + on the occassion will donate to charity.

I love giving. I don't do it because i 'expect' God will give me 10 times the amount the next week, but I just want God to be happy with me. I just want to please him.

Thats what it's all about right? Not judging what the church will spend it on.
God knows you've given, so that to me is all that matters.

 

[sparassidae]

Well you see, most people don't share the fact that they are embezzling money. It's usually pretty secretive. For awhile anyway

I guess I didn't mean embezzling in the conventional, illegal sense of the word, more the idea of spending money on unnecessary things.

That was only very slightly a dig at me wasn't it? JK.

Not you specifically, but everyone who says "I don't give to church because they don't need the money, I give to charities instead because they are really caring for the poor". There are an awful lot of those comments here on CF, and it really annoys me.

Anyway I am specifically talking about tithing, not charitable donations outside of one's own church. Though, the latter could prove more beneficial to those less fortunate in the long run.

Again, I only brought it up because plenty of people see it as an either/or kind of thing. That they give to charities so okay not to give to church.

As important as Fellowship is, do we actually need ; 'a totally awesome drum kit for the band', or even 'new plush pews'? None of these things have anything to do with creating/deepening our relationship with God or teaching the Gospel to members, let alone reaching out and spreading the Gospel to those outside one's own church.

Have we become so materialistic and 'comfortable' that we now consider donations toward such things to come before; feeding the hungry, washing the dirty, or clothing the cold? Let's face it, even with no band and hard pews, most church attendees in Western society aren't hungry, dirty or cold. Not for the most part anyway.

You are exactly right. I have never been in a church (and we have been to quite a few over the years) that put those sort of luxuries ahead of their genuine ministry work.

Most churches we know of tend to run on negative, they spend the amount they need to on salaries, running costs, mission work etc, then pray that the congregation will come through with the money.

To quote aspartamefree (I never know how to do more than one persons quote, so here it is):

If you're happy with paying your pastor (and remember that the Lord Jesus says "The worker deserves his wages" Matt10:10) but are unhappy about other purchases your church makes, then get involved with the parish council (or equivalent), because they are the people who decide how money is spent.

If your church has an abundance of money, then suggest that the church supports mission work in other parts of your area, plants a church, supports a village in Africa, or something.

Just deciding not to give because you don't agree with how the money is spent is a bad idea. Get involved and change it.

 

[ebia]

Sticks and stones mate....sticks and stones.

For the record, My husband and I don't attend a church. We give regularly to a reputable charity. I had refrained from posting both of these facts previously because I did not think them relevant. Your personal attack on me has proved otherwise.

My comment wasn't intended for anyone in particular. But, IMO a Christian should be giving to the Church, and to the needy. "Love the Lord your God ... and love your neighbour as yourself", not "or". Neither is a substitute for the other.

What you (or any other individual) do or do not give to church or charity is none of my business, but when you post it as comment in a discussion it invites reply.

 

[tigercub]

My comment wasn't intended for anyone in particular. But, IMO a Christian should be giving to the Church, and to the needy. "Love the Lord your God ... and love your neighbour as yourself", not "or". Neither is a substitute for the other.

It sounds as if you are implying that the Lord and the church (as in the very many organised stablishments in the world) are one and the same.

Does 'giving to the Lord' mean only 'giving to your church'?

When we as Christians give with a loving heart, are we not giving to the Lord anyway? No matter who we give to.

 

[norbie]

It's maybe werth mention, to give back to the Lord does not always mean hard cash. There are some very poor people out there who hardly make ends meet. So you could for eample spent 5 or 10 hours in a Samaritan Clothes Shop every week, and help free of charge as a voluntier. There are many ways you can give back to the Lord I think.

 

[ebia]

It sounds as if you are implying that the Lord and the church (as in the very many organised stablishments in the world) are one and the same.

Of course not, but the Church is the body of Christ on earth.

Does 'giving to the Lord' mean only 'giving to your church'?

No, but it's the most obvious form. Christianity isn't a religion based on individuals but on a community, and that community is the church. One would need to ask some serious questions about why someone would think it reasonable to be part of that community but not to contribute to the needs of that community even without the theological implications.

When we as Christians give with a loving heart, are we not giving to the Lord anyway? No matter who we give to.

Yes and no. The two are inseparably linked, and yet there is a distinction between loving God and loving neighbour.