Tithing:

[probinson]

As I stated over on the other tithing thread, if the average church receives only $20/person/week, it sounds to me like there may be a problem with people just deciding for themselves what to give. Many people obviously aren't giving anything. Based on these figures, I believe that you and the others posting in this thread are the exception, not the rule.

By contrast, our church, which teaches tithing, has an intake of approximately $50/week/person. Considering that much of our small church is widows who now live on a fixed income, which would you say is better?

I should point out that our church members are blessed beyond imagination even though many of them are on "fixed" incomes. That is because God has rebuked the devourer for their sake, as he promised he would and that fixed income just never seems to run out.

Call it tithing, call it giving, call it whatever you want. But I believe that the 10% figure is non-negotiable.

I might also add that if people choose not to give more simply because they HAVE to give 10%, I would call that rebellion.

"I'm not gonna do this just because you told me I have to". Now there's some maturity for ya.

 

[probinson]

I'll thank you to kindly refrain from "fixing" my posts, I extend the same coutesy to you and expect the same in return.

I apologize. I should not put words into your mouth and I will not do that again.

The problem is, with all due respect, any "revelation" that is contrary to God's Holy inspired infallible Word (as has been clearly shown in this issue) is not a "revelation" from God but a false teaching.

You haven't convinced me of anything, so I would say that this has not been "clearly" shown at all. You have your interpretation, I have mine.

I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth of His perfect Word.

So would that go something like this?

O Lord, please open my eyes to this false teaching which you have apparently wrongly revealed to me per Andyman_1970 and which I have adhered to for 15+ years and seen the blessings thereof

Um, no. Thanks anyway.

 

[pdudgeon]

would it be asking too much to leave off the personal insults and stick to the subject at hand?

i agree with both sides here, and i can see the arguements for both and where they would fit in the Christian life. Unfortunately money has often been a sore spot for Christians and a point of derision for the athiests who observe our squabbles.

Actually this is not about tithing vs. giving. it's all about trust and faith and love and really realizing who God is. When a person can correctly understand how much God has, how much He loves us, and how much He gave for us, then they can begin to understand how to trust God with the managing of the money that He has given them.
that's when they can begin to understand that God knows what they have need of and that they can trust Him to supply that need.

And the last lesson to learn is that they are not "giving" or "tithing" but they are simply returning God's money to Him in gratitude for a gift that money cannot buy.

 

[Andry]

As I stated over on the other tithing thread, if the average church receives only $20/person/week, it sounds to me like there may be a problem with people just deciding for themselves what to give. Many people obviously aren't giving anything. Based on these figures, I believe that you and the others posting in this thread are the exception, not the rule.

Tithers are also the exception in church, not just givers. I encourage people to give, as they are able, from an generous heart. 10% is a good idea because it's a God idea. But a believer is not condemned if they aren't able to give 10%, neither are they somehow blessed 'more' if they do give more than 10%. It's not about our performance or work. Blessings come always because of his grace, and his grace alone.

By contrast, our church, which teaches tithing, has an intake of approximately $50/week/person. Considering that much of our small church is widows who now live on a fixed income, which would you say is better?

Better than what? Do you know what percentage of Mormons tithe? 97%+. Isn't that even better? If it's about church revenues alone, let's use the Mormon's business model. Of course that'd be silly, so your example is irrelevant.

I should point out that our church members are blessed beyond imagination even though many of them are on "fixed" incomes. That is because God has rebuked the devourer for their sake, as he promised he would and that fixed income just never seems to run out.

I always think it's wonderful when believers walk in the blessings of the Lord.

But you're taking 'rebuking the devourer' with a long hermeneutical stretch......way out of context. Besides, who is the devourer? Was he not defeated at the cross? Wasn't the work of the cross completed? Or did Jesus miss something?

All the covenant blessings and promises was because of the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It was because of him, not because of us. It was because of his grace, and not because of our work.

Call it tithing, call it giving, call it whatever you want. But I believe that the 10% figure is non-negotiable.

Tithing is tithing. Giving is giving. You can't casually interchange the two.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Tithing is tithing. Giving is giving. You can't casually interchange the two.

People interchange them so all the time . That is the source of much of the confusion . Some of the tithers think that the discussion is about giving and that people are against it . And , try as you might , the confusion continues .

But , I know what you mean .

 

[JimB]

Tithing is tithing. Giving is giving. You can't casually interchange the two.

Tithing is Law. Giving is Grace.

 

[JimB]

I tithed faithfully for 7 years and was a cheerful giver. However, I never had a true peace about it. Cheerful because I was truly grateful to be able to give, but never had peace about it.

Then this clicked one day. Why would God get so specific with the issue of tithing. Why would He say when you have to travel to tithe, exchange goods for money, then when entering the place to tithe, exchange it back to goods.

Then I found the answer in scripture. They tithed off thing produced by the land as remembrance that this was the promised land given to them. It was never a monetary issue, but an issue of remembering the gift God had given them. Tithing is tided back to the land issue. Land promised to them.

As mentioned I don't think you can scripturally support the 'tithe' as being a transferrable principle for today.

Excellent, 9-I. And food for thought. And I agree with you advice about arguing with legalists.

~Jim

 

[Andyman_1970]

............. so I would say that this has not been "clearly" shown at all. You have your interpretation, I have mine.

Let me be more clear then................

1)Why Abraham gave his tithe? Genesis 14: 18-20"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” And he gave him a tithe of all."

Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of the spoils from the war he just waged on the five kings. He did not give him a tithe of his own personal belongings, and there is no Biblical statement that Abraham ever tithed again.


2) Why Jacob gave his tithe? Genesis 28:20-22 "Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to you.”

Jacob tithed strictly because of a condition he set up with God that was on his terms. And once again, there is no Biblical statement that Jacob ever tithed again.

3)Abraham and Jacob did not tithe silver, gold, or money (that the Bible records)

4)The tithe laws were set up to provide for the Levites. They had no provision since their inheritance was the Lord. Therefore, they needed people to bring them food, clothing, and the necessities of life. Numbers 18:21,23-24, Leviticus 27:30-34, Deuteronomy 14:22-29. (I would respectfully suggest you read these passages, it's black and white right there on the pages of God's Holy Word...........no mention of currency).


5)God has not given a tithe law concerning Christians.

6)Christian giving is not to be made upon compulsion. 2 Corinthians 9:6-7

7)There is no Biblical record of any Christians paying tithes to Pastors or church leaders.

8) Christian ministers are not authorized by God to collect mandatory tithes for their salaries.

9) Christians that do not tithe are not robbing God. There is no command by God for Christians to tithe.

10) God forbids money to be used to pay mandatory tithe by anyone! It is animals, fruit, grain, etc.

11)Thus, it has become evident that the tithe before the law was not the same thing that people try to make a weekly or bi-weekly giving nowadays. It has no place in the Christian life of today whether it be considered a pre- or post- law device.

12)* Where is the appointed place for the tithe today? (Please provide reference(s).)

13)* Only the Levites were allowed to collect the tithe. Where did the NT make a change to that specific Levitical mandate?

14)99% of the OT tithe was used for the support of the Levites, orphans, widows and strangers, not the temple upkeep, etc. Where does the NT make allowances for the tithe to be used for building projects, carpeting, sound and video equipment, parking lots, programs, etc., etc.?

As both Andry and Jim have said, tithing is tithing, giving is giving, as followers of Jesus in the year 2005 there is no Biblical way we can tithe, we can (and should) be generous givers.................

probinson, once again I pose the question to you, where did God "switch" the tithe from what he defined it as in His Holy Word? I would also be interested in your answers to points 12 and 13..............in their proper Biblical context of course.

 

[probinson]

probinson, once again I pose the question to you, where did God "switch" the tithe from what he defined it as in His Holy Word? I would also be interested in your answers to points 12 and 13..............in their proper Biblical context of course.

It's unfortunate that you all feel the need to prove your point to me. I have stated my beliefs clearly to all in the previous 15 pages and I feel it's pointless to continue this debate. My beliefs have not and will not change.

I am secure enough in knowing where I stand that I don't feel compelled to beat you into submission to make myself feel better about what I believe.

I respectfully bow out of this inane debate which has accomplished nothing but harm the faith and beliefs of all the wavering, undecided lurkers reading this. For this, I repent.

To the lurker, I say this: Seek God for yourself. Don't listen to me or the other posters on this board. Truly seek God's heart. Find out for yourself what the truth is.

Let God be true and every man a lier.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It's unfortunate that you all feel the need to prove your point to me.

The unfortunate thing is you cannot, or choose not to substantiate your position Scripturally.

Let God be true and every man a lier.

Which is why I cite God's Holy inspired infallible Word and not a revelation someone had.

Shalom brother.................

 

[Normann]

There is a teaching going around which states that if a person fails to pay their tithes, that person is required BY God to repay the unpaid tithe PLUS a 20% penalty.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support this claim, AND IF this is a Biblically correct teaching, where is the Biblical evidence which absolutely does away with 1st John 1 vesre 9.

I do not pay tithe; I give 10 percent or more and usually more!

I feel the tithe went out with the law. I pay my electric bill but only because I need something called A/C and other electric powered appliances.

Now I am not boasting about what I give to the Lord so that folks will pat me on the back. The topic is started and I feel it may help someone esle.

We should give to God expecting nothing in return. We should give to promote the Gospel of Christ. I want my ministry and my church to grow and therefore I give to help them both to do just that.

My salvation is free and there are no dues to stay saved. But my heart is in this thing and I will give 40 percent if God makes it possible. I probably only average about 15 percent now. Not enough in my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love the Lord and I love his work.

I hope I've helped someone.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[probinson]

We should give to God expecting nothing in return.

I respectfully disagree with that statement, because in Luke 6:38 Jesus said this:

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

You should expect God to bless you when you give, but you should not "give to get" (with the wrong motives). I hope that makes sense.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I respectfully disagree with that statement, because in Luke 6:38 Jesus said this:

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Jesus is talking about judging others in that passage, remember Jesus was a Jew, Jews with an Eastern way of thinking described things with symbols, images, pictures and metaphors - He is talking about if you judge others judgement will be heaped on you "pressed down, shaken together, and running over". Jesus does not say in that passage "give to God and He'll give back pressed down, shaken together..........."

We in our Greek thinking Western mind need definitions and literalness, this is not how the Jewish mind thinks.

Once again, context is key here.............................

 

[swifteagle]

Jesus is talking about judging others in that passage, remember Jesus was a Jew, Jews with an Eastern way of thinking described things with symbols, images, pictures and metaphors - He is talking about if you judge others judgement will be heaped on you "pressed down, shaken together, and running over". Jesus does not say in that passage "give to God and He'll give back pressed down, shaken together..........."

We in our Greek thinking Western mind need definitions and literalness, this is not how the Jewish mind thinks.

Once again, context is key here.............................

Huh? It takes a special spiritual gift to be able to take a blessing from the mouth of Jesus and turn it into a curse.

swifteagle ><>

 

[probinson]

Jesus is talking about judging others in that passage, remember Jesus was a Jew, Jews with an Eastern way of thinking described things with symbols, images, pictures and metaphors - He is talking about if you judge others judgement will be heaped on you "pressed down, shaken together, and running over". Jesus does not say in that passage "give to God and He'll give back pressed down, shaken together..........."

We in our Greek thinking Western mind need definitions and literalness, this is not how the Jewish mind thinks.

Once again, context is key here.............................

Simply and utterly amazing. Are you serious?

Here is what the Message Bible says:
Luke 6:37-38
"Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults--unless, of course, you want the same treatment. Don't condemn those who are down; that hardness can boomerang. Be easy on people; you'll find life a lot easier. 38Give away your life; you'll find life given back, but not merely given back--given back with bonus and blessing. Giving, not getting, is the way. Generosity begets generosity."

Jesus is teaching us the principle of sowing and reaping. If I judge someone harshly, I will be judged harshly. If I give my time to help others, others will help me. If I am generous with my giving, then I will be the recipient of generosity.

 

[JimB]

*****
If I give my time to help others, others will help me. If I am generous with my giving, then I will be the recipient of generosity.

And what if I am generous with my avarice, self-indulgence, love of money, greed and hedonism. What then?

~Jim

 

[probinson]

And what if I am generous with my avarice, self-indulgence, love of money, greed and hedonism. What then?

~Jim

I believe I answered that already in my above post. That is what I would call wrong motives. However, those people will reap what they sow also. i.e. Self-indulgent, greedy, money hungry, self-involved friends, co-workers, supervisors, etc.

 

[Andry]

Simply and utterly amazing. Are you serious?

Jesus is teaching us the principle of sowing and reaping. If I judge someone harshly, I will be judged harshly. If I give my time to help others, others will help me. If I am generous with my giving, then I will be the recipient of generosity.

Yes, we're serious.

And I firmly believe in the principle sowing and reaping. (I can't over emphasis that)

But what do you do and how do you explain, when you sow kindess, or grace, or mercy, that what's seemingly returned is criticism, judgement, contempt, or false accusations?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Simply and utterly amazing. Are you serious?

Here is what the Message Bible says:
Luke 6:37-38
"Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults--unless, of course, you want the same treatment. Don't condemn those who are down; that hardness can boomerang. Be easy on people; you'll find life a lot easier. 38Give away your life; you'll find life given back, but not merely given back--given back with bonus and blessing. Giving, not getting, is the way. Generosity begets generosity."

Jesus is teaching us the principle of sowing and reaping. If I judge someone harshly, I will be judged harshly. If I give my time to help others, others will help me. If I am generous with my giving, then I will be the recipient of generosity.

Yes I'm totally serious. I would respectfully suggest you doo some studying of the Hebraic context of the Gospels.

Even in the Message it doesn't say "hey if you give to God you'll be rewarded pressed down, shaken together............" (which is what you seem to be implying when you first cited this passage). Jesus is expressly talking about how you live with others, what the relationships of a follower of Jesus should look like, not "if you give to God you'll get X amount more than what you gave" - remember He's talking to His disicples (read the whole chapter) who He's just recently called and showing them what life in the Messiah, what the Kingdom of God looks like.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Huh? It takes a special spiritual gift to be able to take a blessing from the mouth of Jesus and turn it into a curse.

swifteagle ><>

I would also say it takes a special kind of "gift" to ignore the context in which the Scriptures were given..................