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Swordman007 said:Actually, you unwittingly pulled the rug out from under organized religion when admitting that "money" is needed for the support of what you call the "church". NOTE your use of the small "c" as opposed to a capital "C".
This only proves that anything that stands or falls on account of money is clearly man-made. The local Church, which is not dependent upon money for its survival and continuance, exists in spite of money, not because of it.
Dr. Don Dean
Thank you.Andyman_1970 said:I agree - my statement was made to address those who "argue" that the Church "must" have money to operate.........
Swordman007 said:Thank you.
For the sake of clarification, I think that if people join a denominational or so-called non-denominational "church" fraternity, and reap benefit from it, then they should help support it monetarily, but trying to built giving to them upon the scriptures is dishonesty at its worst coming from men and women who should know better if they claim to know the scriptures.
Dr. Don Dean
philp310man said:Do you think as a Christian you are obligated to support your church in either of time,?
philp310man said:talent or treasure?
Whereas, I believe that the modern-day tithe doctrine has no contextual Scriptural support whatsoever.Nemo0213 said:I don't think its the tithe necessarilly. Its got more to do with a heart condition. If you can't bring yourself to give 10% how can you bring yourself to give all of what God wants you to give. So I see it as a lesson not only in being faithful (yes, I know there is no scriptural basis in the new testament for it), but also as a tool to break your love of money. Think about it if you have nothing to give your money to you start hording it instead. I have met quite a few people who do not tithe, they tell me they don't have too, I agree with them, they tell me that instead of tithing they give to other causes like charities or mission work. When i ask them what charities and what missions,so I can give there also, they suddenly remember they haven't given in a few months and can't remember which ones they did give to. So i believe that we aren't commanded in the NT to tithe, but it is a good spiritual discipline to learn.
It is a shame that anyone who is supposed to be knowledgable of the scriptures would perpetrate this level of dishonesty. Money given to meet needs brings reward in Heaven, where buildings do not. Loving others is infinitely more pleasing to the Lord than worthless buildings that glorify mankind and his ingenuity and economic prowess in getting people to give the largest and primary portion of their giving for such baubles.Andyman_1970 said:I couldn't agree with you more.
The funny thing is, we got a letter from our pastor that I read this morning, essentially "asking" for money to help pay off our building project - one of the phrases (there were so many, this was the one that stuck out to me) was "you're never more like God than when you give"...........right, no pressure there..................I guess someone forgot to read what Paul says about giving and being pressured to give.
Anyway....................
That all depends upon how you define "church". The local Church is all the believers in each city and the surrounding locale. The local Church, therefore, is not in need of money for its own support, but there are those in each local Church who need assistance to help get their feet back on the ground.philp310man said:Do you think as a Christian you are obligated to support your church in either of time, talent or treasure?
Ron
well saidSwordman007 said:It is a shame that anyone who is supposed to be knowledgable of the scriptures would perpetrate this level of dishonesty. Money given to meet needs brings reward in Heaven, where buildings do not. Loving others is infinitely more pleasing to the Lord than worthless buildings that glorify mankind and his ingenuity and economic prowess in getting people to give the largest and primary portion of their giving for such baubles.
Don
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Mat 23:23)
Is this a question or an accusation? If you do not mind, would you provide for us any verse that reveals that our giving to man-made organizations that most choose to call "church" is synonymous with giving to the Lord? How do those buildings glorify the Lord? How does their absorbing the vast majority of people's giving exemplify obedience to the Word and Will of God? What can we therefore say about the heart condition of those who claim to know the word of God, and yet still teach that which is demonstratably false?Nemo0213 said:I don't think its the tithe necessarilly. Its got more to do with a heart condition. If you can't bring yourself to give 10% how can you bring yourself to give all of what God wants you to give.
So, what you are saying is that choosing not to give to man-made organizations is synonymous with loving money? How much more faithful is that man who gives to the family down the street whose husband and father lost his job, rather than giving to the local neighborhood "church" organization that does little to nothing for those living next door? Sorry, but this rings very hollow when one considers the track record organized religion has earned with such devotion to its building projects and operational expenditures.So I see it as a lesson not only in being faithful (yes, I know there is no scriptural basis in the new testament for it), but also as a tool to break your love of money.
That may be true for those who do have a problem with greed. I give some to charities, and hold most of it to build our new home, which I will be using to lend a helping hand to those in need, such as abused women and children so that they have a safe place to go for a roof over their heads and hot food to eat without having to worry about paying. It will have other uses as well that can and will be to the glory of the Lord.Think about it if you have nothing to give your money to you start hording it instead. I have met quite a few people who do not tithe, they tell me they don't have too, I agree with them, they tell me that instead of tithing they give to other causes like charities or mission work. When i ask them what charities and what missions,so I can give there also, they suddenly remember they haven't given in a few months and can't remember which ones they did give to. So i believe that we aren't commanded in the NT to tithe, but it is a good spiritual discipline to learn.
If Castro did not want his wrok to be quoted and challenged, then he should not have published it openly on the NET. Hwever, I will send him a note of invitation to engage this issue in this thread if he so chooses. If he chooses to not participate, then he is relinquishing his own defense of the arguments he put forth.muffler dragon said:Hey John,
Did you request permission from Michael Castro to present his paper?
The reason I ask is that Michael would not be able to defend anything that someone brings forth against his paper. Something to keep in mind should this proceed.
One will search in vain in that section of scripture where Abraham tithed on the basis of any known requirement, nor is there any indication of a continued practice by even Abraham himself, for we have reason to believe that he ever saw Melchizideck again in his earthly life. Additionally, Abraham gave a tithe of property that he knew was not his, although it was under his control. I have been amazed at the number of people who, when it is convenient, assume that Abraham's character was such that he was like the Vikings (who did not exist at that time), in that the loot belonged to the victor. The text gives no indication whatsoever that Abraham had any intention to keep the loot. In fact, we see just the opposite in his actions and words, and yet allegedly knowledgable people continue to assume just the opposite of what is clearly portrayed within the text.Notice Genesis 14:20: "And blessed be the most High God, which has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he [Abram] gave Him [Melchisedec] tithes of all."
This falls within the fallacies of False Analogy, and Non-Sequitur (it does not follow). The context had to do with Christ being our High Priest, utilizing the tithe as the measure, not at all stated as an ongoing requirement in and of itself. It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.Today, Christ is our High Priest "of the order of Melchisedec." The priesthood was changed and the law concerning who received the tithes also changed. But the law of tithing was, and is, in effect. When Christ became our High Priest, the tithes stopped going to the Levites and started going to Christ's ministers-spiritual Levites-those in whom God is working to proclaim His gospel to this world. This is what the apostle Paul was saying in Hebrews 7. Since Christ is our High Priest with the same rank as Melchisedec, and the Levites received tithes, how much the more should Christ receive them?
Swordman007 said:If Castro did not want his wrok to be quoted and challenged, then he should not have published it openly on the NET. Hwever, I will send him a note of invitation to engage this issue in this thread if he so chooses. If he chooses to not participate, then he is relinquishing his own defense of the arguments he put forth.
Dr. Don Dean
You may or may not be aware of this, so I'll put it forth bluntly. Michael's paper does not support the modern-day tithe doctrine.Swordman007 said:I have sent a message, inviting the author to participate in this forum if he so chooses.
Now, here is another statement in that article that creates serious problems:
One will search in vain in that section of scripture where Abraham tithed on the basis of any known requirement, nor is there any indication of a continued practice by even Abraham himself, for we have reason to believe that he ever saw Melchizideck again in his earthly life. Additionally, Abraham gave a tithe of property that he knew was not his, although it was under his control. I have been amazed at the number of people who, when it is convenient, assume that Abraham's character was such that he was like the Vikings (who did not exist at that time), in that the loot belonged to the victor. The text gives no indication whatsoever that Abraham had any intention to keep the loot. In fact, we see just the opposite in his actions and words, and yet allegedly knowledgable people continue to assume just the opposite of what is clearly portrayed within the text.
He then concludes:
This falls within the fallacies of False Analogy, and Non-Sequitur (it does not follow). The context had to do with Christ being our High Priest, utilizing the tithe as the measure, not at all stated as an ongoing requirement in and of itself. It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.
Dr. Don Dean
Mind if I use this in another thread ?It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.
Thank you very much muffler. You say you have three things that you email to people, but I only remember you sending me two: that paper and a tithe summary text file. Would you mind sending the other one to JSynon@yahoo.com?muffler dragon said:Yeah. I've emailed it to quite a few folks on the forum.
Today I was talking with my girlfriend's brother-in-law and he claims that the tithe that went to the Levites should now go toward the advancement of the Church. He explained that they tithed animals, fruit, and grain back then because that was their bartering material, whereas now we use money and should tithe money. Could you please explain why this and the statement in the OP is fallacious?If Christians insist on following the Levitical Law they would have to find Levite Priests that serve in the Temple Sanctuary to give their tithes of animals, fruit and grain (mint, dill, and cummin). When was the last time you dropped this in the offering plate?
When Israel was waiting on the other side of the river from the "Promised Land," ask him how the prostitutes were paid for their services if gold and silver were not in use at that time. What did they do, bring in a sack of groceries? I would agree that a goat or some other items of value may have been accepted, but the idea that there was no other system of exchange is a denial of what we do know about the ancient economies of that era.JSynon said:Today I was talking with my girlfriend's brother-in-law and he claims that the tithe that went to the Levites should now go toward the advancement of the Church. He explained that they tithed animals, fruit, and grain back then because that was their bartering material, whereas now we use money and should tithe money. Could you please explain why this and the statement in the OP is fallacious?
Well, then, your friend has a problem on his hands. Read the text once again, and you will see the question put forth was not at all about tithes, but about taxes (tribute). What he is perpetrating is termed eisegesis rather than exegesis, for one will give himself a migraine trying to find a parellel between the context and tithing.One last claim he makes involved Matthew 22 when Jesus told the Pharisees to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. He claims that this "rendering to God" is our tithe.
Buts thats just the point.Jesus also complimented the tithing practices of an old widow in the following passage:
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