Tithing - Another View

[BeforeThereWas]

So let's back up and see what Paul was talking about here:

2 Corinthians 8:16-24

So we can see here that Paul is telling these people that he is sending Titus to them. We might call this a guest minister today, since Titus is coming to share something with them. So Titus, a guest speaker, is coming. That's important to the "context" of 2 Corinthians 9:7:

I somehow get the impression from those verses that Titus was being sent for reasons that FAR surpass his merely being a "guest speaker," but that's ok if you want to look at it like that.

2 Corinthians 9:1-7

Sowing Generously
6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Paul tells them someone is coming. Get ready. Be prepared to give to this guest speaker. Then he says in verse 7, Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give.

That certainly doesn't speak of tithing. Such a concept can only be injected where it is nowhere addressed. What was the "gift"? Was it money? Was it something else of value? What? Again, we can only speculate. If it was gold and silver, then it had assumed value, which varied between economies. I also don't get the impression that those men were being sent only to be paid, but to colect the "gift" and take it back to where they came from.

Anyway, none of this speaks to the concept of institutionalized religious organizations such as we have today. You are applying FAR too much assumption in support of institutions and their alleged portrayal within these texts.

Looking at the context, Paul is telling them that they should be ready to give to these guests as they purpose in their heart. This verse, in its proper context, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with our regular giving at church, but everything to do with our giving to guest speakers.

Your edifice complex shows through your words. Do you really have this idea that the people at that time had anything similar to what we see around us today? Where do you get this stuff? Do you routinely inject into the text of scriptures today's mentality and practices, as if they fit?

Count me in. I'm one of the "young folk" that believe all believers SHOULD tithe. You believe that none have to tithe. What makes your belief any better or more valid than mine?

Mostly your lack of any biblical backing. What I have been saying just so happens to be on the side of scripture because of my lack of injecting into the texts what simply isn't there.

Why is your interpretation of scripture any more or less valid than mine?

Since when does proper interpretation involve the injection of a concept that clearly is not anywhere supported within the texts? That's not "interpretation. That's nothing more than a form of TRANSLITERATION, but from texts that simply don't exist. There's a big difference between the two.

The fruit I've seen from tithing in my own life points to God's goodness.

Ok. You feel that tithing has been a great benefit for you. However, the Lord does not lead us all down the same paths of giving and functioning within the body. To say otherwise is to utter that which finds no support within scripture. The Lord has set me about doing another task that does not involve institutionalized religious organizations, and supporting them. He has directed me to do other things.

My testimonies from tithing have drawn my friends closer to God. God uses my obedience to tithe as a testimony to His greatness.

Obedience to YOUR desire to tithe, but that doesn't mean that because you FEEL compelled that you want to tithe that everyone else should follow suit. You go where the Lord leads you. We all are organs with different functions within the same body.

Believe it or not, tithers can think for themselves. This picture that you portray of tithers just following some pastor or teacher blindly is misleading at best.

This has merit ONLY when you ignore the entirety of what I have said on this subject. You are a deceitful individual. I clearly stated, several times as a matter of fact, that BLINDLY GIVING to institutions that abuse the primary portion of believer's giving is wrong, and is nothing mroe than the blind leading the blind. Please represent my beliefs with the entirely what I have actually said on a given subject.

Clearly, Jesus is putting much more emphasis on following Him, having a close personal relationship with the Father, than head knowledge of the scriptures.

Absolutely! I also stated that if you feel a leading, or hear a voice, that directs you to do that which is contrary to the scriptures, that you can then know that leading or that voice to have originated from a source OTHER than the Lord. The Lord will NEVER contradict His written word.

Everyone I know that tithes has testimony after testimony of how God protected them in their finances and provided for them. This is good fruit. It's not "nonsense".

I also have heard testimony from faithful tithters who suffered greatly in this fallen world. Tithing is no guarantee of escaping suffering. There are good testimonies, and there are bad ones. So what? It's too easy to ignore the harsh realities of our living in a fallen world. Sometimes the Lord allows us to suffer because of the end result, not because we tithed or didn't tithe. Tithing is no magical formula to being blessed. The Lord causes it to rain on the righteous and the unrighteous alike, so your testimony in relation to tithing may or may not have merit where absolute truth is concerned.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

A note to the reader: The only reason I occasionally respond to this nonsense is because I feel balance is needed. Many people lurk and read here.

Hey, all you people who read without responding, did you get that? You are "lurkers". Isn't that uplifting? After all, you have been labeled by a guy who thinks he's adding "balance". Wow! What a concept! Good thing we have balance-givers who have nice little compartmentalized and balanced labels for you all.

I applaud you "lurkers" out there who don't respond, because you might otherwise end up being balanced by imbalance. Remember, you heard it first from an allegedly balanced individual that your feelings are on equal footing with the scriptures. (Nothing like a little misrepresentation in retaliation, huh? Remember "eye for an eye"?)

Remember: If your feelings, sensory perception, or whatever means by which you think you are hearing the Lord does not agree with scripture, you can always choose the former in the place of the latter, because doing so might make you feel better about yourself. You know? Religious, in a charismatic sort of way.

Benevolence has always been a good excuse for disobedience, right?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I haven't participated in this thread, another tired old debate, but had to respond to your post, Pete.

This debate has been about far more than just tithing.

BTW[/QUOTE]

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I half-agree. Here's the issue:

You say you have a close personal relationship with the Father. I say I have a close personal relationship with the Father. You say he says, "Tithe". I say he says, "Don't tithe."

All things being equal, with all sincerity of heart that we both are certain without a shadow of a doubt that that was what God said to us....who's lying? Or who's being deceived? You or me?

Which is why we have to go back to the Word. Always.

I can conceed or subjugate my belief to the Word. If it doesn't line up with the Word, then what I heard or experienced in that regard wasn't from God, and I was deceived. Simple as that. Are you willing to also conceed that if what you heard or experience doesn't line up with the Word that it wasn't from God and you were deceived?

And when I say go back to the Word, I don't mean just, as you phrase it, 'head knowledge'. But in popular Christianese, a "rhema" understandiing of the Word.

Excellent post! Well said!

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Again, you have not definitively shown how tithing is "contrary" to God's Word.

I don't think Andy was trying to show that tithing is contrary to God's word. What is contrary to God's word is your insistence that we are all required to tithe. THAT is what he finds to be contrary to God's word. Please read all our statements for what they say.

BTW

 

[probinson]

....Your edifice complex shows through your words.....

....Do you routinely inject into the text of scriptures today's mentality and practices, as if they fit?....

....You are a deceitful individual.....

....Good thing we have balance-givers who have nice little compartmentalized and balanced labels for you all....

.... Benevolence has always been a good excuse for disobedience, right?....

Must you attack my character? Is that the only way to get your point across?

As for the term lurker, anyone fluent in internet terminology would know that simply means: Slang term for someone who regularly reads newsgroup, BBS, or mailing list discussions, but rarely participates in them. That's hardly derogatory.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Who said anything about discarding or ignoring anything?

I have, you have yet to show how the commands regarding the tithe in Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14 and Leviticus 27 have changed. To assert that the tithe is something other than that the Creator of the Universe defined it specifically as is ignoring God’s Holy inspired infallible written Word.

If this is how you operate as a follower of Jesus, why even us a Bible at all???

I ask then, how do we know what we should give biblically?

John the Baptist does a great job of defining what giving should look like for the follower of Jesus “if you have 2 coats and your brother doesn’t have one give him one, if you have food give it too him” essentially if we are going to put a percentage on it giving for the follower of Jesus looks more like 50% rather than a stingy 10% - I would, as a follower of Jesus, live out His command to “love my neighbor as myself” and give closer to 50% rather than be stingy. Remember the only place Jesus speaks of someone being in an actual Hell is a man that was stingy when there were people around him that were in need and he ignored it.

Again, you have not definitively shown how tithing is "contrary" to God's Word.

Do you bring grain/produce/animals to the Temple where Levites receive it?

Does your tithe go specifically to feeding the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien?

If you have answered “no” to either of these questions then according to God’s Holy inspired infallible written Word in Numbers 18, Leviticus 27 and Deuteronomy 14 you have not tithed. Until you can answer “yes” to either of those you not tithing according to how God specifically defined it as.

If you can prove to be Biblically that the tithe has somehow changed I’d be all ears. I wished I had a dime for every time I’ve asked that question on a tithe thread and there was no Biblical response – I’d be able to take care of so many hurricane victims it’s not even funny.

 

[Andry]

Here it is again:
The letters are red because Jesus is speaking. They are not my words. Jesus is telling people that they think because they diligently study scriptures, this is where life is. Jesus is clearly saying here that coming to Him is greater than studying scripture. Again, Jesus said it. Not me.

Of course. The Scriptures point to Jesus, which the Pharisees couldn't see. How does this relate to our conversation? For clarity, it's all about Jesus. And Jesus never said anything contrary to Scripture. It's our understanding of Scripture that allows us to see Jesus, and in the Pharisees' case, it was their lack of understanding that prevented them from seeing him.

Absolutely. If something I believed did not line up with the Word I would most assuredly concede that belief. However, when it comes to tithing, I've seen fruit that lines up with the Word and points to God's goodness. If I were in such grievous error, or had been deceived by the enemy, God would not be glorified.

Again you're putting your experiences in an elevated position above Scripture - in essence, you're allowing it to become doctrine. I can say the same thing about my giving...."I've seen fruit that lines up with the Word and point to God's goodness." And if God's goodness in this regard is viewed as financial blessing, he's been really good. All without my tithing. So it would seem that God has been good and gracious despite your tithing or my not tithing.

It's not so much the amount of the tithe that God is interested in. Obviously God doens't "need" our 10% to function. It's the willing obedience that God is interested in. I've tithed when I could not "afford" to do so and EVERY time I do, God has provided for me without fail. Because of some stupid choices earlier in my life, I have put myself in a position where I must choose to either a) Trust God, or b) Rely on my own ability when it comes to my finances. When I tithe, I'm saying, God, I trust You and Your Word. I'm going to tithe, and I'm going to see you open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing. And he ALWAYS has. This is quite biblical. It's found in Malachi, whether you believe its taken in its proper context or not. I've never been forsaken or had to beg for bread. (Ps. 37:25).

As I've stated before, you've got a wonderful testimony.

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but when you say, "I'm going to tithe, and I'm going to see you open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing. And he ALWAYS has", it begs the question of: what happens if you don't tithe? Which the logical answer is, the windows of heaven won't open to pour out a blessing. Well, that, is not Biblical. If it were, then God is like a tap that you turn on and off. Sounds like a works doctrine to me.

Sorry, but I don't tithe or give in order to get God to bless me, or inversely, so that he doesn't keep from blessing me.

The bottom line is, this affects ONLY me and my family, whom God has placed me the head over. It's a personal thing, between us and God. It has absolutely zero effect on anyone else. Even the fact that we believe all christians SHOULD tithe is between us and God. I don't run around condemning people for not tithing anymore than I run around condemning people for not being saved. But I still believe all should be saved, just like I believe all should tithe.

And I respect that; I've never discouraged you to tithe. It's a good idea because initially it was a God-idea. But I also encourage giving because then we need to be sensitive to what and where and when and how God wants us to give, into the areas he directs. And so our giving isn't motivated by whether he "opens up the windows of heaven" or not.

 

[probinson]

Again you're putting your experiences in an elevated position above Scripture - in essence, you're allowing it to become doctrine. I can say the same thing about my giving...."I've seen fruit that lines up with the Word and point to God's goodness." And if God's goodness in this regard is viewed as financial blessing, he's been really good. All without my tithing. So it would seem that God has been good and gracious despite your tithing or my not tithing.

This is a somewhat personal question, so feel free to not answer - Do you give at least 10% of your money, even if you don't call it the tithe? If so, then you're doing EXACTLY the same thing I'm doing. The only difference is you call it giving, and I call it "tithes and offerings". But we're doing the same thing regardless of what we call it. Thus, the result is the same.

As I've stated before, you've got a wonderful testimony.

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but when you say, "I'm going to tithe, and I'm going to see you open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing. And he ALWAYS has", it begs the question of: what happens if you don't tithe? Which the logical answer is, the windows of heaven won't open to pour out a blessing. Well, that, is not Biblical. If it were, then God is like a tap that you turn on and off. Sounds like a works doctrine to me.

Sorry, but I don't tithe or give in order to get God to bless me, or inversely, so that he doesn't keep from blessing me.

Nor do I. I tithe because I want to obey and put my trust in God. The blessings are gravy. God knows the motives of our heart. If we are "giving to get", then we have the wrong motives. I give to be a blessing, and in turn, God blesses me.

And I respect that; I've never discouraged you to tithe. It's a good idea because initially it was a God-idea. But I also encourage giving because then we need to be sensitive to what and where and when and how God wants us to give, into the areas he directs. And so our giving isn't motivated by whether he "opens up the windows of heaven" or not.

Thank you. Thank you for debating this with me. It goes to show that 2 people can agree to disagree, and not have to attack each other in the process.

And I must say, on this last statement, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We need to listen to where and when God tells us to sow, and then do it. And we need to make sure our motives for giving are pure.

 

[Andry]

This is a somewhat personal question, so feel free to not answer - Do you give at least 10% of your money....

Yes.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I applaud you "lurkers" out there who don't respond, because you might otherwise end up being balanced by imbalance.

Goo point .

 

[FireOfGod]

Give what GOD tells you to give... Not common sense tells you. Tithing is for YOU, not for the church. God says he will bless you with 30, 60, or even 100 times more than what you give!! Tithing is good. Do it.

 

[Jimmy West]

Give what GOD tells you to give... Not common sense tells you. Tithing is for YOU, not for the church. God says he will bless you with 30, 60, or even 100 times more than what you give!! Tithing is good. Do it.

The reason I posted this in the first place is that there seems to be some confusion and dissagreement as to what God wants, or weather it applies to us today.

 

[Andrew]

Give what GOD tells you to give... Not common sense tells you. Tithing is for YOU, not for the church. God says he will bless you with 30, 60, or even 100 times more than what you give!! Tithing is good. Do it.

Amen. Tithing testifies that He lives.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Must you attack my character? Is that the only way to get your point across?

What else can be said when you ignore my repeated appeals for you to represent ALL that I have said on a given subject? You tell me. Why not quote the ENTIRE CONTEXT of that accusation so that everyone can THEN see the merits of my assesment of your obvious lack of dealing honestly with my statements? Do you fear the truth? A spade is a spade. You falsely accused me, and now you draw back with an appearance of harm because I pinned you to the carpet for your lack of honesty in what I have said on blind giving? You have quite a bit of nerve to play the martyr after your own impropriety.

As for the term lurker, anyone fluent in internet terminology would know that simply means: Slang term for someone who regularly reads newsgroup, BBS, or mailing list discussions, but rarely participates in them. That's hardly derogatory.

Especially when you're not on the receiving end of that term..... Before you go and complain to the admins about my pointing out the obvious, please be honest enough by admitting to them that you brought all this upon yourself by way of your lack of representing the actual meaning behind my statements that I have clearly stated in other posts as clarification that you conveniently overlooked, or ignored completely, for whatever gain you may be after in misrepresentations, partial truths, or just outright fabrications that have no comparison to what I have said before.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I have, you have yet to show how the commands regarding the tithe in Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14 and Leviticus 27 have changed. To assert that the tithe is something other than that the Creator of the Universe defined it specifically as is ignoring God’s Holy inspired infallible written Word.

If this is how you operate as a follower of Jesus, why even us a Bible at all???

Good point. An interesting parellel is marriage. Mankind has warped and twisted God's definition of marriage into such a tangled mess that divorce is now almost easier than making bread in this country. Most professing believers look only at our legal allowances for divorce, and assume acceptance in God's eyes. A tragedy indeed.

essentially if we are going to put a percentage on it giving for the follower of Jesus looks more like 50% rather than a stingy 10% - I would, as a follower of Jesus, live out His command to “love my neighbor as myself” and give closer to 50% rather than be stingy.

Ah, but the legalist will agree with you because you are now talking about a percentage that is large enough to fit their 10% requirement within. What about those who can't afford 10%? THAT is where the legalist's true colors show through.

They demonstrate the vicious spirit within their beating little bosom when we hear from them, "Well, such people are simply not trusting in God to provide for their needs. They should give sacrificially regardless." I have even heard them say that they have never met a person who can't afford 10% in this country. What a sheltered life they live, sheltered from those who live at or below the poverty line.

I am one such person. I am right now making less than the poverty level income, and I have four young children and a wife to support. I'm not complaining, but just trying to point out that some of these legalists really need a taste of poverty so they can get off their self-righteous, pharisaic horse, and move about down here in the dirt with those of us who are here and have a living experience of it. I will get food sometimes from food banks to help feed my family, because we would go hungry some of the time without it. Legalists are generally people who have either never lived through REALLY hard times, or did before and completely forgot what it was like.

Legalists sometimes need to be knocked off those ivory towers so that when they land in the mote, they swim about in the same filth they have been flushing out onto others throughout their sheltered lives.

Does your tithe go specifically to feeding the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien?

Legalists see no problem with institutions absorbing that portion so that those like myself can pull our belts tighter and thank the Lord for that precious building from which we reap no benefit. That building doesn't put food in my children's stomachs. It does all kinds of other things, and those within are especially good at saying, "Be fed, warm, and on your way, and may the Lord bless you, because we simply don't have the budget for it."

Yep, I've been told that, or rather something akin to it. It sure puts a skip in one's stride to be stepped on and pushed into the dirt like a cigarette butte. Makes ya want to give praise and glory to the Lord, at least that may be the view of a legalist. I'm pretty accustomed to it, so it doesn't bother me as much as it did at first. I used to cry in utter defeat when turned away by those people dressed up so nicely, driving new cars and trucks, patting their Pentacostal "pastor" on the back for a great sermon as he gets into his cadillac and drives off with my left sniffing the rank exhaust, but I have long since learned that shedding tears over the greed of legalists just isn't worth the loss of salt through tears. Salt costs money.

If you can prove to be Biblically that the tithe has somehow changed I’d be all ears. I wished I had a dime for every time I’ve asked that question on a tithe thread and there was no Biblical response – I’d be able to take care of so many hurricane victims it’s not even funny.

Yes, appeals like this are routinely ignored or cast aside as irrelevant when it's convenient.

BTW

 

[probinson]

What else can be said when you ignore my repeated appeals for you to represent ALL that I have said on a given subject? You tell me. Why not quote the ENTIRE CONTEXT of that accusation so that everyone can THEN see the merits of my assesment of your obvious lack of dealing honestly with my statements? Do you fear the truth? A spade is a spade. You falsely accused me, and now you draw back with an appearance of harm because I pinned you to the carpet for your lack of honesty in what I have said on blind giving? You have quite a bit of nerve to play the martyr after your own impropriety.

Take the plank out of your eye before you worry about the spec in mine. When you begin to quote the ENTIRE CONTEXT of what I say and stop putting words into my mouth, then you can start tossing stones if you'd like. If you look back through the posts, you'll see that you're on the offensive towards me. In this post again, you say I've falsely accused you, I fear the truth, I have a lack of honesty. Baloney. You don't even know me. Who are you to make such judgments against me? Say what you will about me. My posts speak for themselves. As do the numerous PM's I get from people who repsect my character and integrity in my posts.

Especially when you're not on the receiving end of that term.....

I was a lurker too. This is perhaps the most bizarre attempt anyone has ever made to try and convince someone that I am saying something derogatory. Here it is again: A lurker is one who reads but does not post.

Before you go and complain to the admins about my pointing out the obvious, please be honest enough by admitting to them that you brought all this upon yourself by way of your lack of representing the actual meaning behind my statements that I have clearly stated in other posts as clarification that you conveniently overlooked, or ignored completely, for whatever gain you may be after in misrepresentations, partial truths, or just outright fabrications that have no comparison to what I have said before.

More nonsense. Listen, I respect your opinion. I just do not agree with it. You clearly, do not respect mine. What I do not respect is your horrible debating tactics at hurling personal insults at me about my character and integrity.

 

[probinson]

My testimony of tithing:

Hello. My name is Pete. I am 28 years old and I am married with a son. I have faithfully attended the same church for 26 years and have been involved with different areas of ministry since I was 11. I am currently actively involved in our youth ministry, music ministry and media ministry. I have been tithing since I was around 8 years old when my parents started giving me an allowance of $1.00/week. I gave my $0.10 happily because I learned that God loves a cheerful giver. I believe that tithing is being obedient to God, and it puts my faith and trust in Him as my source. I do not believe that my employer is my source, although I do belive that I must put my hand to something and whatever that something is, God will prosper it. But if my job were eliminated tomorrow, I believe God would supply all of my needs according to His riches and glory.

For the first 4 years of our marriage, both my wife and I worked full-time jobs. We never were in lack, we always had an abundance. Things were great for us financially for the first 4 years of our marriage and we tithed and gave offerings faithfully each week. Unfortunately, we foolishly did not save for our future. We spent nearly everything we made and had no savings to speak of. We were not being very good stewards with our money.

2 years ago when my son was born, we went from a 2 income family of 2 to a 1 income family of 3. We currently live just slightly above the poverty line in terms of my salary. If you look at our income vs our bills, the bills are larger. I live at the line where I make too much to qualify for assistance, but too little to support myself. This is where God and tithing comes in. I have a mortgage, a car payment, credit card bills that I racked up foolishly, student loans, utilities, gas, and groceries to pay for each month. In the past 2 years, I've received numerous notices that they were going to shut off the gas, or shut off the electric, or shut off the phone. Not once have they done this. God has shown Himself mighty on our behalf and because we've put God first, we are victorious. At one point last year, they threatened to foreclose on our house. But God provided for us and not only did they not foreclose, but we were able to pay all of the past due and late fees on the mortgage and catch-up completely because God provided us with over $2,000 from different sources. Through all of this, we continued to tithe. We continue to give at least 10% of our gross income in the face of all of this adversity. We even give above our 10% as the Spirit directs us, even though it appears on paper that we can not afford to do this.

God has never forsaken us. Even when it seems like we're going under, God pulls us up again. I was recently promoted in my job in a year when our CEO said no promotions or raises were to be given. God is my source and He supplies all of my needs as I put my faith and trust in Him. I could not survive on my salary without God's provision. And thank God, every day that passes, we pull ourselves further and further out of debt. This time around, we're being much better stewards of our money.

I have tithed almost my whole life. I've been in plenty, and I've been in lack. But never have I stopped tithing. It's a testimony to God's goodness and provision. My faith in Him and obedience to Him is the only way I am sitting here today.

 

[Doug45]

Awesome post, probinson.

I appreciate the greatfulness in your spirit. I have tithed for the past 37 years as well and share similar experiences.

There was a period of time when I was frustrated with God in the area of Him meeting my needs. I had what I thought were $10,000 in needs and He provided only $2000. Interestingly, He instructed me to begin to thank Him for the $2000 and declare whatever God supplies is enough to meet my need.

This exercise which appears to be futile and senseless on the surface restructured my thinking and I returned from cynicism to trust. Amazingly, all of my needs have been met.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Just for the record, I completely agree that giving generously is indeed biblical and is a blessing to both the one who receives and the one who gives. What has been consistently ignored in all this is my challenge to show where:


1) organized religion is authorized to teach an alleged requirement to tithe, and

2) it is the legitimate depository of the primary portion of believer's giving for its own use.

If folks want to tithe, that's fine, but don't lay that requirement upon others if you are not prepared to defend it with consistent, contextual reference.

BTW