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Tithing and budgeted giving.

Timothew

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^^^exactly, it doesn't say "I was hungry, so you gave me some money in hopes I'd make it somewhere where I could buy something to eat..."

Yes, the disciples said "It would take 200 denari to buy enough food for each one to have a morsel," but Jesus said, "You feed them, look around, what do you have?"

When he fed the 4000, the 5000, how much was left over?
He said it's not about the bread, man!
 
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dies-l

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Well if everyone did that then my point would be invalid wouldn't it.

Why does it matter what everyone else does?


So does a Learjet for the Kingdom of God count? Or maybe a new Porsche for the Associate pastor would be more glorifying to God?
:confused:

No, if you lusted, therefore you DID commit adultery...Jesus doesn't speak of the same for violence that have been made aware. No, I am saying that if we are giving 10% or 5% or 50% it is where your heart lies.

I agree. But, what you do with your money reflects where your treasure is, and where you treasure lies, there also your heart lies. If you spend a big chunk of money on a new TV and entertainment system, what doe sthat say about what yo value? It says that you value entertainment. If you spend it on a fancy car, this suggests that you value fancy cars. OTOH, if you give lots of money to oversea missionaries, to the work of your local church, to ministries that serve the poor, and so forth, you are suggesting that you value the work that God is doing through His church.

You said "Should I say, 'I'm a little bit greedy because I bought a fancy new TV with God's money, so I might as well be completely greedy and spend it all on myself.'" But I would suggest saying, "I know that buying these things does not glory God, so I should not by them at all!" Yet, that was not even a possible alternative in your equation or in mine for that matter.

I agree with you that we should not be using our money for selfish things. But, a little bit of sin does not justify a lot of sin.

My question remains, what in our "Christian" society make these monetary things permissible and covering our eyes to the truth that we should give up everything? God's Grace is the usual answer I get, but that's a complete cop-out for someone who does not want to own up to the admittance that it is not what the Bible teaches in how we, as real Christians, should live our lives.

Like I said, we should give 100% to God. 99% is sin. Most of us are probably giving a lot less than that. God's grace is sufficient to allow us to grow into deeper levels of generosity and to forgive our selfishness. This doesn't mean that God's grace makes our selfishness "permissible." It means that God recognizes our sinfulness and that Jesus has already paid the price. We are free then to respond to God's generosity with as much generosity as we can muster, rather than to earn God's love through strict adherence to legalistic principles.

The really scary part is that Christian life is a complete contradiction to a capitalist society and would be more fitting with a socialist one. I am not for socialism in the slightest, but the words of the Bible scream to me that we should be sustaining each other and not just those that we closely care about with conditions being placed and lines drawn. Where is the line drawn and why?

The Jerusalem church acted very much like a socialist society with one important exception: it was the product of voluntary generosity rather than coercive collectivism. God does want us to choose to live to live selflessly, voluntarily giving sacrificially in love for one another. Socialism is about the government forcing people to give what they have to the government so that the government can distribute as it sees fit.

Yet, I beg of you to answer my questions before asking your own, please. I have never felt like I have given to God by dropping money in a collection plate. I have felt like I gave to God when I helped an old woman and her grandson clean out her garage though.

You are giving to God when you share of your time or your money. If you don't feel that your church is doing God's will with the money it receives, you should ask to look at the budget. If the leadership won't share it with you or if you do not see God's hand in it, find a different church. A godly church leadership will freely share with its membership its use of money.

Some of the things that I see my money used for in my church: a feeding program and church sponsorship in rural Nicaragua; a food pantry that serves the local poor; outreach ministries to the community; a youth program that teaches kids from some of the roughest neighborhoods about Jesus and gives them a safe and wholesome place to hang out once a week.



No no, friend...it affords these things. If we were to live in a community in which we were truly to live as the Bible suggests, our community would build houses, transportation, and RID ourselves of worldly desires because we have the tools to do so without money even being involved. The fact of the matter, it is more convenient for us to just pay some one else to build us a house, construct us a car, and buy **** we don't need in order to satisfy our inherit need for ownership (this is mine so no one can take it away because I paid for it), greed, and tangible comfort.

If that is how you feel, what are you doing to make that community a reality?
 
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OLDGUY

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I will try this one more time and then I am leaving this thread.
The tithing argument is a round robin argument.
The church eschews money and then asks for it.
Money is not of the kingdom of God.
Yet if the church wants you to tithe what does that tell you about the fruit that church is bearing?
Jesus tells us through out His ministry do not be concerned with these things.
God will provide.
What does that tell you about the church that asks for money? What does that tell you about the fruit they are bearing?
When Jesus was given to us by God. And yes He was given to us.
God did not say you owe Me.
The OT deals with the physical man. The NT deals with our spirituality.
Did not Jesus say thiw when spaeking of divorce?
Rmember He said that you were told it was okay to put away your spouse for adultery because your hearts were hardened and you did not understand.
Then He said I am telling you that anyone that puts away their spouse is guilty.
When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. John told Him that he was not worthy. Jesus said suffer it to be so for now. Then the Holy Spirit alighted on Him. What do you really think that was about?
The prophet John the Baptist when preaching before the baptism even said that after me comes one who will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
Do you not remember what Jesus taught us when He said "Seeing they will not believe. Hearing they will not understand."
The bibe is simple. It is the word of God. It is the history of man and the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I do not always find it easy to follow because I too am human. I am of this world, but do not for one moment think that the snug life that you want to live all settled into works such as tithing mean anything in the kingdom of God. It is esy and comfortable to believe that going to church, praying, mowing your grass... you see where I am headed? Do you not still understand that all these things are of man. Do you think that comfortable feeling that you have when you put a dime into a poor man's cup is giving glory to God? What do you not understand about the letters to the curches?
We are that generation of vipers and we are looking for a sign and we will not receive one until the glory of Christ is seen coming in the clouds.
May peace be on all our souls. May God in His mercy shine the light of knowledge on us!
 
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98cwitr

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Why does it matter what everyone else does?

Because these people are suppose to be an example of what a Christian should be.


I was being fascious

I agree. But, what you do with your money reflects where your treasure is, and where you treasure lies, there also your heart lies. If you spend a big chunk of money on a new TV and entertainment system, what doe sthat say about what yo value? It says that you value entertainment. If you spend it on a fancy car, this suggests that you value fancy cars. OTOH, if you give lots of money to oversea missionaries, to the work of your local church, to ministries that serve the poor, and so forth, you are suggesting that you value the work that God is doing through His church.

Are you saying that it's now okay to sin? It's okay to live in a little sin without acknowledgement and repentance?


I agree with you that we should not be using our money for selfish things. But, a little bit of sin does not justify a lot of sin.

Then why do we do it? You're still not answering the questions.

Like I said, we should give 100% to God. 99% is sin. Most of us are probably giving a lot less than that. God's grace is sufficient to allow us to grow into deeper levels of generosity and to forgive our selfishness. This doesn't mean that God's grace makes our selfishness "permissible." It means that God recognizes our sinfulness and that Jesus has already paid the price. We are free then to respond to God's generosity with as much generosity as we can muster, rather than to earn God's love through strict adherence to legalistic principles.

Do you "want" to give up everything you own? Is there a desire to do so?


The Jerusalem church acted very much like a socialist society with one important exception: it was the product of voluntary generosity rather than coercive collectivism. God does want us to choose to live to live selflessly, voluntarily giving sacrificially in love for one another. Socialism is about the government forcing people to give what they have to the government so that the government can distribute as it sees fit.

proving my point in how far we are from that....

You are giving to God when you share of your time or your money. If you don't feel that your church is doing God's will with the money it receives, you should ask to look at the budget. If the leadership won't share it with you or if you do not see God's hand in it, find a different church. A godly church leadership will freely share with its membership its use of money.

Again, you have not told me why I need to give money to the church and not directly to those in need?

Some of the things that I see my money used for in my church: a feeding program and church sponsorship in rural Nicaragua; a food pantry that serves the local poor; outreach ministries to the community; a youth program that teaches kids from some of the roughest neighborhoods about Jesus and gives them a safe and wholesome place to hang out once a week.

Great! That is wonderful that your church is doing all these things. Our missionaries are currently in Haiti and Chili, as well a youth leadership programs weekly around town sponsored by our church. Why don't we give more to the church then?

If that is how you feel, what are you doing to make that community a reality?

Aboslutely nothing except *****ing about it. I tell you what, I know I'm a big hypocrite for saying all of these things because I'm just another pot screaming that we are all made out of clay.

My point is that I don't want to give up these things. I like them and what they do for me, selfishly, too much to convince myself otherwise. I don't go out and build houses because I work a fulltime job and selfishly value my off time more than the satisfaction of performing after hour, saturday and sunday labor. I don't quit my job in order to have more time because it pays really well and makes me feel like my college education was not in vain. If I had to give away my stuff in order that a homeless man should live, I'd keep my stuff and justify it by saying "It was his time." Because I apparently value my stuff over a single human life.

Think about it. If I could sell all my stuff for $10,000 and give it to one person to afford their medical treatment and save their life. I could do it (once really...or until I was able to acquire more stuff and money) but I have that opportunity every day, realize it, accept that I'm not going to do it, and play Call of Duty on my 1080P projector w/ surround sound. I'd rather do that than save a life. What a wicked and shameful person I am, and what makes it worse is, I'm not doing anything to actively change it. It was hard even typing all of that "out loud." God have mercy on me :bow:
 
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wpbarrett

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I was layed off last year and to be honest I needed to be humbled a little bit. I kept on giving my church my regular offering and also what I could to a Christian org that feeds children around the world. I knew in my heart that I would be taken care of and that Chirst Jesus does not turn his back on his sheep. a few months later My wife got a really nice job and I was called back to my job. Things are better than they were before, did the giving do this ? No!! Faith in Christ Jesus and knowing that I was a child of God got me through it.
I would just as soon forget last year but when looking back on it, it was probably the best year of my life. I was drawn closer to God and for the first time in my life I was tested for something other than the love of money. At one time in my life money was all that I worried about, but we as Christians have something much greater than this old decaying world can't offer. The Love and tenderness of Christ Jesus.
In my very humble opinion it was'nt what I gave, it was I gave it with a clean heart to Christ and his children.
Reading Matthew chapter 6 will explain alot of what I'm trying to say, I'm not really good with words. But I feel really blessed now every time that a have a test in life and get the chance to prove my love for Christ Jesus no matter what the out come is.

God Bless, Billy
 
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dies-l

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Because these people are suppose to be an example of what a Christian should be.

I would encourage you to look to Jesus to see what a Christian should be, not to other sinners.


Are you saying that it's now okay to sin? It's okay to live in a little sin without acknowledgement and repentance?

No. I didn't say that at all. I am just stating the reality that we are sinners and that our only hope is God's grace.

Then why do we do it? You're still not answering the questions.

Why do we sin? Because, we are sinners. If that doesn't answer the question, then I suppose I need you to rephrase the question.

Do you "want" to give up everything you own? Is there a desire to do so?

Do I want to? No. Do I want to want to? Yes. Therein lies the difficulty; there is conflict between what I want to do (satisfy my selfish desires) and the result that I want to obtain (to become a selfless and Christlike person).




proving my point in how far we are from that....

I agree; we are far from the ideal. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current conversation, however.



Again, you have not told me why I need to give money to the church and not directly to those in need?

I don't recall telling you that you should not give money directly to those in need or that you need to give to the church. I did suggest that I believe that the church is a good place to start in giving, but if God is calling you to give elsewhere, I would not argue. What is more important is that you are giving; how much and to whom is between you and God.



Great! That is wonderful that your church is doing all these things. Our missionaries are currently in Haiti and Chili, as well a youth leadership programs weekly around town sponsored by our church. Why don't we give more to the church then?

That's a great question. The reason that I give the amount that I do is that, if I gave more, I would not be able to meet my bills each month. I would like to give more and our budget is built around increasing our giving as our income increases. But, ultimately, a certain portion of my income has to be used to pay rent, buy food, and pay bills (including paying debts that I acquired before God really convicted me about my finances). Part of being a good steward of money is using it to meet one's needs and to be responsible about one's obligations, including debts that we foolishly accumulate.



Aboslutely nothing except *****ing about it. I tell you what, I know I'm a big hypocrite for saying all of these things because I'm just another pot screaming that we are all made out of clay.

My point is that I don't want to give up these things. I like them and what they do for me, selfishly, too much to convince myself otherwise. I don't go out and build houses because I work a fulltime job and selfishly value my off time more than the satisfaction of performing after hour, saturday and sunday labor. I don't quit my job in order to have more time because it pays really well and makes me feel like my college education was not in vain. If I had to give away my stuff in order that a homeless man should live, I'd keep my stuff and justify it by saying "It was his time." Because I apparently value my stuff over a single human life.

Think about it. If I could sell all my stuff for $10,000 and give it to one person to afford their medical treatment and save their life. I could do it (once really...or until I was able to acquire more stuff and money) but I have that opportunity every day, realize it, accept that I'm not going to do it, and play Call of Duty on my 1080P projector w/ surround sound. I'd rather do that than save a life. What a wicked and shameful person I am, and what makes it worse is, I'm not doing anything to actively change it. It was hard even typing all of that "out loud." God have mercy on me :bow:

I appreciate the honesty of your response. I encourage you to pray for the willingness to change that which falls short. God is faithful and will grow you, but very often, because of our own resistance, our progress is slow. I struggle with my own issues of selfishness, not so much in regard to material things, but more in terms of a desire for acceptance and acclamation. The prayer that God has been encouraging me with is this:

"God, I offer myself to Thee--to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.

May I do Thy will always!"

I pray that He will grow both of us brother. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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here's what I know about tithing. i didn't do it for a long time. my wife and I tried unsuccessfully for 8 years to have a child. we spent tens of thousands of dollars and no results. at that time i would have given everything i owned to have a child. the odd part about it was we were never told we could not have children by the doctors. well finally God blessed us with a son and a few years later I was looking through some old checks and found my first tithe check to our Church, doing a little math I was able to count back and wouldn't you know it my son was conceived about a week or two after writing that check. Needless to say, 15 years later i am still tithing and carry that check with me everyday to remind me of God's faithfulness. all i know is if you withhold anything from God doesn't matter if it's time, talent or money it only hurts you.

"Give and it shall be given to you"

My favorite Bible verse during our ordeal was Matthew 7:11. We named our son Matthew meaning "gift of God" and he was born on July the 11th. Pretty cool huh?

What a humbling yet powerful testimony. It brought tears to my eyes to read this. Praise Lord Jesus!
 
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98cwitr

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I would encourage you to look to Jesus to see what a Christian should be, not to other sinners.

No. I didn't say that at all. I am just stating the reality that we are sinners and that our only hope is God's grace.

Why do we sin? Because, we are sinners. If that doesn't answer the question, then I suppose I need you to rephrase the question.

Do I want to? No. Do I want to want to? Yes. Therein lies the difficulty; there is conflict between what I want to do (satisfy my selfish desires) and the result that I want to obtain (to become a selfless and Christlike person).

I agree; we are far from the ideal. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current conversation, however.

I don't recall telling you that you should not give money directly to those in need or that you need to give to the church. I did suggest that I believe that the church is a good place to start in giving, but if God is calling you to give elsewhere, I would not argue. What is more important is that you are giving; how much and to whom is between you and God.

That's a great question. The reason that I give the amount that I do is that, if I gave more, I would not be able to meet my bills each month. I would like to give more and our budget is built around increasing our giving as our income increases. But, ultimately, a certain portion of my income has to be used to pay rent, buy food, and pay bills (including paying debts that I acquired before God really convicted me about my finances). Part of being a good steward of money is using it to meet one's needs and to be responsible about one's obligations, including debts that we foolishly accumulate.

I appreciate the honesty of your response. I encourage you to pray for the willingness to change that which falls short. God is faithful and will grow you, but very often, because of our own resistance, our progress is slow. I struggle with my own issues of selfishness, not so much in regard to material things, but more in terms of a desire for acceptance and acclamation. The prayer that God has been encouraging me with is this:

"God, I offer myself to Thee--to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.

May I do Thy will always!"

I pray that He will grow both of us brother. Thanks for sharing.


I see your points and do agree. Thanks for putting that into your personal perspective. I don't think the part that bothers me so much is that people don't act on it, it's that they don't even acknowledge it. They want to make excuses...I've had this talk with folks in sunday school and I get a cold shoulder and defensive responses.
 
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jpcedotal

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then why only 10%? Is God only worth 10% of my money?

Start with 10%....Scripture states that we OWE God this....

"Giving" doesn't even BEGIN until AFTER 10%. Anything before that is STEALING.

That's the way to look at it realistically
 
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98cwitr

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what part of scripture says I owe God money? So realistically speaking, you're suggesting to "pay what I owe" and if a result does not follow said payment go back to "stealing?" How would you then interpret Isiah 55:1-2? God is free, brother...completely free. He does not cost us monetarily. Scripture DOES show that.
 
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Timothew

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Start with 10%....Scripture states that we OWE God this....

"Giving" doesn't even BEGIN until AFTER 10%. Anything before that is STEALING.

That's the way to look at it realistically

I'm going to need a chapter and verse on that one, OK?
 
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dies-l

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I think the reference is to Mal. 3:9-10. Because, it is written to a Jewish audience, I think it is a bit harsh and legalistic to read this passage as commanding Christians to tithe. Nonetheless, I do believe in tithing as a minimum for my own giving, but not out of need to obey the law. Rather, when we realize what it means to have been freed from the law, we become grateful. When we are grateful for God's grace, the law is no longer sufficient to express our gratitude. Whether another person tithes or not is between God and that person. The beautiful thing about grace is that we don't have to do anything. The irony of grace is that the more we understand it, the more we want to do what would otherwise have been required.

Personally, I agree with 98cwitr. To give anything less than 100% of all that we are and all that we have is not enough. By the same token, I acknowledge that I am a sinner and that I don't even come close to 100%. So, for me, to nitpick over 9% or 10% or 11% doesn't make sense. As with all things, I say "do what you want, but always pray that God will change what you want to align with what He wants."
 
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dies-l

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Dies-l, you give 10% or more as "grace-giving," that's good. The problem I have is with 10% as "law-giving." The idea that all christians must do this.

I agree. It is important to distinguish "musts" from "shoulds". As Christians, we should want to live a life that is honoring to God and that is filled with the fruit of the Spirit, including generosity. But, when we feel that we must do something, then it becomes nothing more than a step to attempt to earn God's favor. This, I believe is just as true with giving as it is with anything else.

Just for a bit of personal testimony: When I met my wife, I was a recently divorced, new Christian. When we were dating, there were three things that she made known to me: (1) She was unashamedly saving herself for marriage, (2) she did not tolerate cussing, (3) she tithed and always would, and (4) she had been called to serve in a (low paying) ministry position in SE Michigan. I had not problem with (1). I learned to adapt to (2) because I really liked her. And, I hoped that she might change her mind on (3), because I did not think it would be possible for me to part with a full tenth of my income. As for the last one, she never did change her mind, and she has developed me into a tither. When we got married, I was just finishing law school. I spent our first summer, looking for work and preparing for the bar exam. In the fall, I got my bar results (passed), and continued to look for work. There was a part of me that though that I should have no trouble finding a job: I was in the top 1/5 of my law school class and I was doing everything that I was following God faithfully. He had to bless me, right? Not so much, at least not in the way I was expecting.

2007 ended with me still unemployed. In 2008, I managed to pick up some contract work, but I was still unable to find stable employment. In 2009, the contract work dried up and so soon did our savings account. During this time, I also looked at several opportunities to leave Michigan, believing that my wife would just have to submit if that is where I found work. Although I got some strong leads, I could not find any out of state opportunities that would work with me until I could take that state's bar exam. So, no real windows opened out of Michigan either (I thought about taking the Ga. bar exam, but could never find peace in that decision).

When I had graduated, I had gotten the sense that God was telling me to start my own practice and that He would bless it. But, I was afraid, because I preferred the stability of someone else taking all the risks and just giving me a paycheck. Finally, in October, after it became obvious that I was not going to find stable employment, I finally decided to try going it on my own. The previous summer, I had gotten to be close friends with a couple of therapists. I later found out that they had a close friend who was a well respected attorney in town. He offered to introduce me around and teach me the basics of practicing law in my county. He also let me know which lawyers in the county were looking for tenants. I found a place to set up an office with a lawyer who is very laid back and has been more than willing to work with me in taking care of rent as I can afford to pay (and rent is quite low to begin with). I had an advertising salesperson teach me all the tricks to get free advertising in the legal profession (which I found ironic, because it enabled me to not need to buy the service she was selling). And, in the past 2 months, I have been watching my practice take off.

In short, I see God's hand all over my legal practice, in the connections that I have made with other lawyers, with the clients that I have gained, and wit the revenue that is coming in (not much at all, but any amount is more than one should expect for a brand new practice). More importantly, my wife and I have learned some valuable lessons: We have learned, for example, how to live on very little; we have learned how to distinguish between wants and needs and to live simply; we have learned to trust God even when things are difficult; we have learned how to be responsible stewards of what God gives us, however much or little that may be. Most importantly, we have learned that God is faithful and will provide seed to the sower. All He asks is that we sow the seed (invest in the Kingdom with our minds, hearts, time, and resources) and trust that He will make it grow.

We are still struggling financially. Just last week, I sold my car because we decided that we could not afford the payment and that we needed to be rid of that idol in our lives. So, now we are a one car family. We eat on a shoestring grocery budget; we have no entertainment budget to speak of; and we live in a modest little (by American standards) apartment. Most of our money goes to pay off debt. But, we will not consider not tithing nor will we consider not giving to missions. We have a roof over our heads, and we eat three meals a day (usually more). In the past three years, God has made sure of that and He continues to do so, even as He provides for my new law practice.

Most importantly, he is teaching us, as He taught the Israelites, to rely on Him alone for our sustenance. The other day, I was talking to a woman in my church, and she said "it can be tough being a manna eater." My first response was "I don't want to be that kind of lawyer. There are too many maneaters in the legal profession already." But, then she clarified what she said, and I realized that that summarized what God has been teaching us, in part, because of our decisions on how to use our time, where to live and where to serve (including the decision to stay in Michigan even though it makes no sense whatsoever in this economy. The career services office at my law school told me back in 2008 that the only advice they could give me was to get the heck out of Michigan if I wanted to find a job). Nothing could substitute for what God has shown us during this time.
 
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