Tithe

[C.F.W. Walther]

Repper is

[pong]ON[/pong]​

 

[BigNorsk]

Radidio...if you would turn on that repper I wouldn't have to post here so much! I couldn't agree more with you on this one. We only give what He gives us in the first place anyway!

In our earlier years of marriage, it never occurred to us to give 10%. I always thought our donations were quite adequate. Then one day I ran the numbers and was completely shocked. We were giving less than 3% of our income! So my husband and I decided we should do more and slowly...over a period of several years, because we had other obligations (mortgage, car payments, other debt), we were able to increase the percentage. But it took a plan and a desire.

I bring this up to encourage those who might not be where they would like to be today regarding giving. It can take time, planning and effort...and that's OK.

With penalties and interest on that missing tithe you now owe 374% of your gross earnings, will that be cash or credit card?

Marv

 

[ByzantineDixie]

With penalties and interest on that missing tithe you now owe 374% of your gross earnings, will that be cash or credit card?

Marv

More truth to that than first meets the eye! I owe more than I could ever repay...as we all do.

All praise to Christ for His victory over death!

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

With penalties and interest on that missing tithe you now owe 374% of your gross earnings, will that be cash or credit card?

Marv

More truth to that than first meets the eye! I owe more than I could ever repay...as we all do.

All praise to Christ for His victory over death!

Is that gross or net?

 

[Jim47]

In my family we've been finding that, since our finances have been hand-to-mouth for years, we NEED to have a set percentage. Otherwise, we are just not disciplined enough to give at all, because it gets frittered away frivously. And then we feel terribly guilty.

So just in the past few months, we've prayerfully considered our finances, and set out a basic budget. For the first time in 14 years, to our shame. Anyway, part of that is a specific amount to the church. Since we're not sure how this budget will work, and we have almost no savings in the bank, the amount to the church is smaller than ten percent.

I feel like I want to have a little bit of cushion in our savings (at least a month's paycheck's worth, which we've never been able to keep around before) before re-evaluating our church giving. But then, I feel like if we give our "first fruits" God will be faithful and take care of us. And then, that seems too much like "prosperity gospel" and it makes me shudder. *sighs*

I've always felt guilty if I don't give more, and stressed and worried when I do. It is our prayer that by actually setting up a budget and working with it, we can increase our giving more systematically, rather than haphazardly, and with less worry.

So a full 10 % off the top? Nowhere close to it. But with the new plan, where we actually budget church giving into our monthly expenses, we are definitely getting closer to the "cheerful giver" that we've wanted to be.

Radidio has it right. Its not the percentage thats importat, but the heart with which we give. If our hearts aren't rght, then even a 100% wouldn't please God. I must confess I don't give 10% either. There are other ways to give too, such as doing work for the church which is just as pleasing to God. For the rich, 10% wouldn't be adequate, as they have the ability to give much more then that. For the very poor, even pocke change could be almost impossible.

 

[Flipper]

Radidio is right! Back when I was poor and working to pay for my wedding (because letting my parents pay for it would mean giving up creative control and we couldn't have that), was when I first heard a sermon on tithing along the lines of God only wanting a cheerful giver, and how you can also be rewarded. I'm like, ok, I'll try this. I never got up to 10% (still not at 10%), but I was giving more than my budget would allow. Somehow, though, I was able to afford my wedding with a little money to spare. Just looking at the numbers, there was no way - so I know it had to have been God. I didn't do anything extravagent, but I also wanted to be able to invite everyone we wanted to invite - so the expense went to the reception.

I'm the first one to say that prosperity gospel has no biblical basis and people like Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn get under my skin. However, I think God covers your back financially if you tithe for the right reasons. I don't think he'll give you a house or a car out of it, but, for example, you might not overdraft when you think you will, or your electric bill will be lower than you think the next month. Just little things like that.

Here's a question, kind of personal, so I don't blame you for not responding. Do any of you take the tax deduction? I'll admit we do - only because we get a report from the church that we can just hand to the accountant. We wouldn't if I had to keep track of what we give - not that disciplined. The report is based on the checks we write - I refuse to use those little envelopes.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Here's a question, kind of personal, so I don't blame you for not responding. Do any of you take the tax deduction? I'll admit we do - only because we get a report from the church that we can just hand to the accountant. We wouldn't if I had to keep track of what we give - not that disciplined. The report is based on the checks we write - I refuse to use those little envelopes.

You betcha! I write a check for every possible donation so I can get that deduction. We have our taxes set up such that we always get a refund. That refund then gets redistributed...so the deduction enables further giving! Even if your taxes aren't set up that way...I think it is quite appropriate to take the deduction--because the same principle applies although it may not appear so obvious.

BTW...I never have used those little envelopes either. What a pain trying to keep track of where they are, match up the right date, etc.

 

[Jim47]

Hi Flipper

I'm not sure how man times we have even filed long form, my loving wonderful wife takes care of that. But there is certainly nothing wrong wth using your contributions to get a small return. That is simply good stewardship

 

[Edial]

Hi there. I totally agree with you about that the "little old ladies" should be prevented from giving to tv evangelists, so that the likes of Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn don't get to buy another multi million dollar house, jet etc.

However, how did you estimate that the OT tithe was "30"%? I read this with great interest, but unfortunately you didn't supply any Biblical information about it.

By my calculations, the OT tithe was in fact just over 3% per year. This is how I figured this out:

During the first 2 years of the tithe, the Israelites brought 10% of their first fruits into the temple. However, this was not handed over to the Levites but was eaten as a thanks offering unto God. It would be like going to church and at the end of the year, bringing in 10% of your monies earned, giving thanks to God for it, and then going out and spending it on yourself, therefore completing the thanks offering.

Only during the 3rd year did the Israelites bring in the 10% first fruits and actually hand it over to the Levites for their upkeep.

So you do the maths. Out of 3 years of 10% tithes, 10% is actually given away to the temple priests, (remember, the first 2 years it was not given away). So 10% given away in 3 years is..........well you know.

But if I would love to read about a 30% tithe equivalent. This is my Biblical analysis, if there is another, please let us all read it.

Just came back ...

Here is a link (quick search) ...
http://www.greatcommissionhousechurches.org/ecclesiology/ot.tithing.vs.nt.giving.html
We could analyze it more, if you think there are errors in there.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Since LilLamb219 "resurrected" tithing on another thread ...

Prior to becoming a Lutheran I thought of yard sales, fund raisers with a disapproval (actually I was taught to think that way ).

But now that I see, this really appears to unify the church - ladies are making things, men are barbequing, others are setting up tables, others are selling stuff for a quarter - at the end of a hard day's work (and much fun) $832 and change.

If dedicating one's entire Saturday to a yard sale is not tithing, ... what is?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[LilLamb219]

If dedicating one's entire Saturday to a yard sale is not tithing, ... what is?

When our Ladies Society has a rummage sale, even though the event is only 2 days long, we prepare for the entire week beforehand. Many hours go into preparing for the sale and it's a lot of hard work going through all that junk and organizing it (and trashing the trash). I dread rummage sale week because of how difficult it is. Sometimes it doesn't seem like we earn enough money to even make the event worthwhile, but we do get a LOT of people who come every year and love the sale. As long as someone is happy

 

[Edial]

When our Ladies Society has a rummage sale, even though the event is only 2 days long, we prepare for the entire week beforehand. Many hours go into preparing for the sale and it's a lot of hard work going through all that junk and organizing it (and trashing the trash). I dread rummage sale week because of how difficult it is. Sometimes it doesn't seem like we earn enough money to even make the event worthwhile, but we do get a LOT of people who come every year and love the sale. As long as someone is happy

Sure ... tithing and doing it freely.

Bringing money into a church supports the material foundation for Christianity.

Where would people go to hear the Gospel ... in snowy winter?
How would "Apostle Pauls, Peters, Johns" eat?


And concerning someone being happy?

There is Someone ...

PHP 4:18 I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. 19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
PHP 4:20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Since ByzantineDixie asked for clarification on 30% in another thread, here is a quote of a summary from this link - pretty acurate article addressing main verses on tithing in OT and giving in NT.
http://www.greatcommissionhousechurches.org/ecclesiology/ot.tithing.vs.nt.giving.html


If someone truly wants to tithe according to Scripture, he/she would have to do the following:

1) Quit their job and buy a farm so that they can raise herds and grow crops;
2) Find some Levitical priests to support;
3) Use their crops to observe the Old Testament religious festivals like Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles;
4) Begin by giving at least 20 per cent of all their crops and herds to God; and
5) Expect God to curse them with material deprivation if they were unfaithful or bless them with material abundance if they were obedient.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Flipper]

Since ByzantineDixie asked for clarification on 30% in another thread, here is a quote of a summary from this link - pretty acurate article addressing main verses on tithing in OT and giving in NT.
http://www.greatcommissionhousechurches.org/ecclesiology/ot.tithing.vs.nt.giving.html


If someone truly wants to tithe according to Scripture, he/she would have to do the following:

1) Quit their job and buy a farm so that they can raise herds and grow crops;
2) Find some Levitical priests to support;
3) Use their crops to observe the Old Testament religious festivals like Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles;
4) Begin by giving at least 20 per cent of all their crops and herds to God; and
5) Expect God to curse them with material deprivation if they were unfaithful or bless them with material abundance if they were obedient.

Thanks,
Ed

That's scary. Off hand, I immediately thought of one person who exhibits some of that. I know a guy who does (4). He raises pigs and chickens. The chickens go to the church's annual Fried Chicken Dinner and the pigs go towards the church's annual Sausage Dinner (which is this coming Sunday - YUM). He's also Catholic and the priest at his church is supposedly very big into the OT, so that might take care of (2) as well.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Since ByzantineDixie asked for clarification on 30% in another thread, here is a quote of a summary from this link - pretty acurate article addressing main verses on tithing in OT and giving in NT.

Just to set the record straight...I was not seeking clarification of the 30% rule. I am happy with the 10% understanding.

 

[Edial]

That's scary. Off hand, I immediately thought of one person who exhibits some of that. I know a guy who does (4). He raises pigs and chickens. The chickens go to the church's annual Fried Chicken Dinner and the pigs go towards the church's annual Sausage Dinner (which is this coming Sunday - YUM). He's also Catholic and the priest at his church is supposedly very big into the OT, so that might take care of (2) as well.

It really is a methodology that clings to people.

Once one gets involved in that, eventually one's conscience gets somehow captured by this practice and he feels guilty if he stops doing that.

It is tricky.

I also do not blame such people, nor do I praise them.

Primary goal of salvation is to give people freedom from the Law.

(I am not saying they should start breaking it. They should start by-passing it ).

Free and cheerful giving was a staple of Christian churches that received praise from Apostle Paul.

Tithing is a burden.

Giving must outweigh tithing in the hearts of Christians.

It is not a matter of what methodology gains more income.

We all know of church renovation projects supported by tithing that suddenly suck in all the money with unexpected expences, while a same project could be accomplished with a 3rd of a cost.

God does not look at tithing, otherwise salvation makes no sense.

Free giving is a fulfillment of tithing.

The two do not mix, because little yeast cannot be mixed into a dow - it will overtake ones conscience.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Flipper]

It really is a methodology that clings to people.

Once one gets involved in that, eventually one's conscience gets somehow captured by this practice and he feels guilty if he stops doing that.

It is tricky.

I also do not blame such people, nor do I praise them.

Primary goal of salvation is to give people freedom from the Law.

(I am not saying they should start breaking it. They should start by-passing it ).

Free and cheerful giving was a staple of Christian churches that received praise from Apostle Paul.

Tithing is a burden.

Giving must outweigh tithing in the hearts of Christians.

It is not a matter of what methodology gains more income.

We all know of church renovation projects supported by tithing that suddenly suck in all the money with unexpected expences, while a same project could be accomplished with a 3rd of a cost.

God does not look at tithing, otherwise salvation makes no sense.

Free giving is a fulfillment of tithing.

The two do not mix, because little yeast cannot be mixed into a dow - it will overtake ones conscience.

Thanks,
Ed

My repsonse was more tongue in cheek, but I do agree with you. I think you do get rewarded for giving/tithing/whatever, but it also isn't required for salvation.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

It really is a methodology that clings to people.

Once one gets involved in that, eventually one's conscience gets somehow captured by this practice and he feels guilty if he stops doing that.

It is tricky.

I also do not blame such people, nor do I praise them.

Primary goal of salvation is to give people freedom from the Law.

(I am not saying they should start breaking it. They should start by-passing it ).

Free and cheerful giving was a staple of Christian churches that received praise from Apostle Paul.

Tithing is a burden.

Giving must outweigh tithing in the hearts of Christians.

It is not a matter of what methodology gains more income.

We all know of church renovation projects supported by tithing that suddenly suck in all the money with unexpected expences, while a same project could be accomplished with a 3rd of a cost.

God does not look at tithing, otherwise salvation makes no sense.

Free giving is a fulfillment of tithing.

The two do not mix, because little yeast cannot be mixed into a dow - it will overtake ones conscience.

Thanks,
Ed

I have a real problem with writing checks for building or expansion programs when its for a rec hall or new indoor gym when I see soooooo much poverty in the world and we're worried about making sure we have a nice chandelier in the rec hall or not gettign wet when we play basketball or whatever.
I think that defeats the purpose of giving and is missdirected.

 

[Flipper]

I have a real problem with writing checks for building or expansion programs when its for a rec hall or new indoor gym when I see soooooo much poverty in the world and we're worried about making sure we have a nice chandelier in the rec hall or not gettign wet when we play basketball or whatever.
I think that defeats the purpose of giving and is missdirected.

I'm right there with you.

Our church grew so much that we needed a bigger building and more land - that was abundantly obvious, and I gladly gave to that campaign. It was a multimillion dollar building, but there is a lot of multi-use to the layout, so I was happy about that as well. One cool thing about the LCMS is that they have this non-alligned investment arm. You invest in it, and the interest rate the church has to pay back for the building goes down. I didn't do it, but it was a unique alternative to directly giving, and you get even more back.

However, I thought that after we were in the building, then the campaigns would stop. Nope. Before the building, Pastor would do one (1) tithing sermon a year. Now, he started setting up sermon series after sermon series designed to make us think about how we should spend our money and where the money should go to. Their arguments was that the upkeep of the building was a lot more expensive.

Now, their big campaign is to buy another building to increase the outreach - basically splitting our church into two churches with separate services, etc. I'm not so sure about that.

Our church gives a ton of money to mission groups and different outreaches so I know most of the money is going to where it should go, but I'm also noticing the new state of the art sound and light system that just went up. I don't know much about sound and light equipment, but my husband is a audio/visualphyle and he says that what we just got could go into a nice concert hall easilly. That's just one example.

 

[Edial]

I have a real problem with writing checks for building or expansion programs when its for a rec hall or new indoor gym when I see soooooo much poverty in the world and we're worried about making sure we have a nice chandelier in the rec hall or not gettign wet when we play basketball or whatever.
I think that defeats the purpose of giving and is missdirected.

I partially agree with you.

Many churches get caught up in that building frenzy and lose sight of the real thing.

What do differ with you on is concerning poverty in the world and the church's approach towards it.

The purpose of a church is not a relief outlet by design, but a source of the gospel and a place where saints get edified.
When Apostle Paul preached concerning the poor, he always preached concerning the poor in the church, not outside.

There is Red Cross, and other relief organizations that are designed for that.

If the church would understake the function of a relief organization, it would not survive, since it was not her purpose on this earth.

... but that's my view on that.

Thanks,
Ed