timeless procreation.

[Superfast]

Anybody want to own 'timeless procreation" as an explanation as to what "eternally" begotten means? Anybody have another idea as to what 'eternally begotten" means? Or is this just something you should accept with out trying to figure it out? Come on trinitarians explain 'eternally begotten".


and what about God the Father, isn't he eternally begatting Jesus? And Mary, she has to be eternally conceiving Jesus, but she has to be a virgin, so is she eternally revirginized? How come nobody talks about these doctrines and just talks about 'eternally begotten." it's not fair.

 

[2ducklow]

I found one source that says eternally begotten means that the Son derives his existance from the Father. So that would mean what? that begotten means derive? or existance? or nothing? yep it would mean that begotten means nothing. and eternally means nothing.

 

[gort]

you seem to be stuck with the procreation thing. Begotten has more to it than that.

God's Only Begotten Son

 

[WagginDog]

"Eternally begotten" is a phrase meant to convey to you that there is a relationship that you are not able to fathom, but which you can still benefit from thinking about. God knows that our minds are limited, yet to the extent possible he reveals himself. One of the advantages of knowing that there is something unknowable is that it gives us a better perspective. There are things hidden in God which we cannot represent in our minds such as God's goodness. The scriptures say God is in inapproachable light and that compared to him our own righteousness is filth. In other words we cannot imagine certain aspects of God. It doesn't detract in any way from living a righteous life.

 

[Superfast]

"Eternally begotten" is a phrase meant to convey to you that there is a relationship that you are not able to fathom, but which you can still benefit from thinking about. God knows that our minds are limited, yet to the extent possible he reveals himself. One of the advantages of knowing that there is something unknowable is that it gives us a better perspective. There are things hidden in God which we cannot represent in our minds such as God's goodness. The scriptures say God is in inapproachable light and that compared to him our own righteousness is filth. In other words we cannot imagine certain aspects of God. It doesn't detract in any way from living a righteous life.

trinitarians say Jesus is eternal, and they say he was begotten so the phrase eternally begotten is suppose to be describing that. See, if someone is begotten that means they have a beginning, if someone is eternal then that means they have no beginning and no end. so the phrase eternally begotten is an oxymioron phrase or if you prefer a contradiction in terms.. It's like saying inteligent stupidity, or updown, or right left, or go stop,


You justify it on the grounds that you have numerous scriptures that you intepret to mean, but you would probably say they say, that Jesus is God so it leaves you no choice but to utter contradictions and claim it's god you're talking about so that's why we can't understand it. every scripture you use to claim that Jesus is god is an interpretation of scripture and not scripture, on this point I doubt that you can see it, even though it is plain as day. you trinitarians elevate your interpretations to the level of scripture so that you see no problem with scirputre that says god the father is the one and only god, and your interpretations of other scriptures that contradict that because your interpretations, in your mind are on the same level as scripture. So it was god that contradicted himself not you, in your mind anyway. and since god doesn't contradict himself it must just be something beyound our understanding. I don't elevate my interpretations to the level of scripture thus i look for an interpretation of your so called proof texts , such as john 1.1, that fit in and do not dcontradict john 17,3, 20.28, and 1 cor. 8.6 et.al. This is a fundamental differnece in the trinitarian approach to scripture and my approach. I have no contradictions in my doctrine, you have tons of them and just ignore them with "god is beyond our understanding".
we've said the same thing, just looking at it from a different angle.

 

[WagginDog]

trinitarians say Jesus is eternal, and they say he was begotten so the phrase eternally begotten is suppose to be describing that. See, if someone is begotten that means they have a beginning, if someone is eternal then that means they have no beginning and no end. so the phrase eternally begotten is an oxymioron phrase or if you prefer a contradiction in terms.. It's like saying inteligent stupidity, or updown, or right left, or go stop,

You are going to lengths to point out contradictions in terminology. Terminology is not how to build your house on the solid foundation. It is sinking sand. Even if we speak in the tongues of both men and angels, there is no benefit if we do not have love. Love never fails; but talk is just talk. Entire languages die out and disappear and knowledge can be erased.

You justify it on the grounds that you have numerous scriptures that you intepret to mean, but you would probably say they say, that Jesus is God so it leaves you no choice but to utter contradictions and claim it's god you're talking about so that's why we can't understand it. every scripture you use to claim that Jesus is god is an interpretation of scripture and not scripture, on this point I doubt that you can see it, even though it is plain as day. you trinitarians elevate your interpretations to the level of scripture so that you see no problem with scirputre that says god the father is the one and only god, and your interpretations of other scriptures that contradict that because your interpretations, in your mind are on the same level as scripture. So it was god that contradicted himself not you, in your mind anyway. and since god doesn't contradict himself it must just be something beyound our understanding. I don't elevate my interpretations to the level of scripture thus i look for an interpretation of your so called proof texts , such as john 1.1, that fit in and do not dcontradict john 17,3, 20.28, and 1 cor. 8.6 et.al. This is a fundamental differnece in the trinitarian approach to scripture and my approach. I have no contradictions in my doctrine, you have tons of them and just ignore them with "god is beyond our understanding".
we've said the same thing, just looking at it from a different angle.

We are not boxed in by the limitations of the wise, and there aren't any proof texts. Jesus came opposing dependence upon debate and authority for everything that is said. Authority and proofs are not the solid foundation. If proof that Jesus came could be had it would not help the gospel. If you could prove there were Zero contradictions in the Bible it would not improve the gospel one little bit. Instead it would shift focus from God's principles to a sort of mathematical algorithm, and therefore it would actually detract from the principles. What I'm saying is even if there aren't contradictions it isn't a useful fact. An evil generation asks for signs, and even if we were surrounded with miracles it would not increase the number of true conversions.

The so-called contradictions in My Doctrine, which I don't have one of my own, are not important. They aren't important for the reason that I do not count my knowledge to be perfected. Proofs are unnecessary and a distraction. Even in things that are consistent I may see the illusion of contradictions, because the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it? I'd try to help other people to get that splinter out, but I have a log.

 

[Superfast]

You are going to lengths to point out contradictions in terminology. Terminology is not how to build your house on the solid foundation.

so what you're saying here means is so long as you don't build your house or theology on terminology it's ok to use a contradiction in terms like stupid intelligence, or up down, or eternally begotten. whoever said anyone built thier theology on terminology. you're in outer space on this one.

It is sinking sand. Even if we speak in the tongues of both men and angels, there is no benefit if we do not have love. Love never fails; but talk is just talk. Entire languages die out and disappear and knowledge can be erased.

so what you are saying in effect here is just as long as you love people you can use contradictions in terms. outer space.

We are not boxed in by the limitations of the wise, and there aren't any proof texts.

Oh come on everyone has proof texts for every doctrine they have. there are proof texts. there are texts that prove that Jesus is the son of god. there are texts that say God the father ist he one and only true god. your still in outer space here making really bad, i mean really bad assertions.

Jesus came opposing dependence upon debate and authority for everything that is said. Authority and proofs are not the solid foundation. If proof that Jesus came could be had it would not help the gospel. If you could prove there were Zero contradictions in the Bible it would not improve the gospel one little bit. Instead it would shift focus from God's principles to a sort of mathematical algorithm, and therefore it would actually detract from the principles. What I'm saying is even if there aren't contradictions it isn't a useful fact. An evil generation asks for signs, and even if we were surrounded with miracles it would not increase the number of true conversions.

just a bunch of nonsensical goobledy goop that is impossible to descipher or find any relation to our discussion in. outer space stuff.

The so-called contradictions in My Doctrine, which I don't have one of my own, are not important. They aren't important for the reason that I do not count my knowledge to be perfected.

Ok finally something that is discernbable. So it doesn't matter to you if you contradict yourself, It matters to me, I guess we can't come to any kind of mutual ground on this, for when I contradict myself, I say to myself that something is wrong with something I believe and I try and figure out what it is. you don't try and figure it out, you just accept that you are going to contradict your self cause you're not smart enough to not contradict yourself. we have totally different perspectives here.

Proofs are unnecessary and a distraction.

Oh brother, now I've heard everything. YOu would never say this never in a million years if you were talking about anything other than the trinity. Try saying that in a calculus class, try saying that in a court of law. you need to get real in a real bad way. I can only conclude that you didn't think about what you were saying in this entire post of yours.

Even in things that are consistent I may see the illusion of contradictions, because the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it? I'd try to help other people to get that splinter out, but I have a log.

incohernent goobledy goop. I have to assume that you probably mean that the contradictions in your theology are only apparent that when you name 3 different gods and claim you have only named one god that that is only an apparent contradiction. I prefer to say naming 3 gods is nameing 3 gods not that it is naming 3 persons of God and that 3 gods or 3 persons of god are not one god and to say so is a contradiction and not an apparent contradiction. It could only be considered an apparent contradiction IF, God had named 3 different gods, and called them 3 persons of god if you try and add them up but if you don't want to add them up then each one is god. then you would be justified in saying it is an apparent c ontradiction in your theology, but since it isn't it isn't.

you just evaded what i said. I said trijitarians elevate their interpretations to the level of scirputre and thus have no problem if it contradicts a scripture because they lay the blame on god by saying that god is beyond our understanding. all youve done is talk about numerous different subjects that have nothing to do with what I said. typical trinitarian evasion but what else can you do? evadeing the topic is the only real option you have. You can't say we trniitarians don't elevate our interpretations to the level of scripture, because it can be easily demonstrated that you do. so you evade, dodge and weave a convoluted story that means nothing.

 

[Tavita]

Anybody want to own 'timeless procreation" as an explanation as to what "eternally" begotten means? Anybody have another idea as to what 'eternally begotten" means? Or is this just something you should accept with out trying to figure it out? Come on trinitarians explain 'eternally begotten".


and what about God the Father, isn't he eternally begatting Jesus? And Mary, she has to be eternally conceiving Jesus, but she has to be a virgin, so is she eternally revirginized? How come nobody talks about these doctrines and just talks about 'eternally begotten." it's not fair.

It means He begat Christ in the 'eternal'. I perceive it to be IN God. HE IS eternal. It's a quality of His being... not a state of time.

 

[Superfast]

It means He begat Christ in the 'eternal'. I perceive it to be IN God. HE IS eternal. It's a quality of His being... not a state of time.

you say god begat christ in eternity, the bible contradicts you and says "this day have I begotten thee". The bible says God begat Jesus in Mary, not in eternity.
and Saying God begat Jesus in God also contradicts scripture.

(Rotherham) Matthew 1:20 But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,--Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten, is of [the], Holy, Spirit.


[SIZE=+0]Psalms 2:7 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Let me tell of a decree,--Yahweh, hath said unto me, My son, thou art, I, to-day, have [SIZE=+1]begotten[/SIZE] thee: (rotherham)[/SIZE]



[SIZE=+0]Psalms 2:7 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I [SIZE=+1]begotten[/SIZE] thee. {the decree: or, for a decree} [/SIZE]
(kjv)


where is the verse where god says "In all eternity I have begotten thee''? show me where god contradicted himself.
Jesus was begotten in Mary not God, Jesus was begotten at one point in time, not in eternity. Mary isn't eternity either, and Mary isn't being continually impregnated throughout all eternity. lets get real.

Plus, you ignore my assertion that you trinitarians elevate your interpretations of scripture to the level of scripture. And you do, the only defense you guys have is to ignore it and pretend like it doesn't exist. doesn't even come up on your radar screen no matter how many times I say it because you put a piece of black tape over the spot on your radar screen where it comes up. so you never see it and it doesn't exist for you. all you have to do to stop being a trinitarian is to answer peoples questions and deal with the facts and assertions we bring up. but you can't do that cause it would mean you would no longer be a trinitarian, so just put a piece of b lack tape on any spot on your radar screen that condemns trinity, and it doesn't exist. you guys contradict the bible right and left and blame it on god saying God is beyond our understanding, when it is you not god that come up with these contradictions.

 

[Tavita]

I canT quote you at the moment. But all I have to say to your little tirade is that I AM NOT A TRINITARIAN!!

Other than that you are not worth any other response.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I see it much like Plotinus's teaching of the emanation of Nous from the One. There never was a time when this emanation was not. It's co-eternal with the other.

 

[eachallberg]

you say god begat christ in eternity, the bible contradicts you and says "this day have I begotten thee". The bible says God begat Jesus in Mary, not in eternity.
and Saying God begat Jesus in God also contradicts scripture.

(Rotherham) Matthew 1:20 But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,--Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten, is of [the], Holy, Spirit.

Jesus was begotten in Mary not God, Jesus was begotten at one point in time, not in eternity. Mary isn't eternity either, and Mary isn't being continually impregnated throughout all eternity. lets get real.

Plus, you ignore my assertion that you trinitarians elevate your interpretations of scripture to the level of scripture. And you do, the only defense you guys have is to ignore it and pretend like it doesn't exist. doesn't even come up on your radar screen no matter how many times I say it because you put a piece of black tape over the spot on your radar screen where it comes up. so you never see it and it doesn't exist for you. all you have to do to stop being a trinitarian is to answer peoples questions and deal with the facts and assertions we bring up. but you can't do that cause it would mean you would no longer be a trinitarian, so just put a piece of b lack tape on any spot on your radar screen that condemns trinity, and it doesn't exist. you guys contradict the bible right and left and blame it on god saying God is beyond our understanding, when it is you not god that come up with these contradictions.

You complain about contradictions yet you quote Matthew?!
Com'on.
What if the trinity was a baby step?
And infinity is the speed of light?

God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”...

...“They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

The beginning of John helps are understanding, but not completely.

Parables, analogys, metaphores, are used to explain spirtual truth that cannot be fully explained like waggindog stated are minds are limited.

So why destroy your self?

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Jesus came from Mary, Christ is G_d. (Luke 9:20)

Jesus Christ would not say that he is G_d because he is not proud, he is humble.
(And IMO another reason was to stay hidden from the archons, and that is why Judas had to hand him over).

It is written... "Follow me".
&
"They worshipped him" (Luke 24:52).

Chinese emperors would disguise themselves as commoners so they could be among the people they so dearly loved.

No one knew the King was with them.

Especially the new King no one has ever seen.

PeACE.

 

[Superfast]

I canT quote you at the moment. But all I have to say to your little tirade is that I AM NOT A TRINITARIAN!!

Other than that you are not worth any other response.

typical tacitic for avoiding the truths I bring up. Others call me a heretic when cornered with the truth, you in effect did the same thing by saying that I'm not worthy of a response. Tavia just put another piece of black tape on another spot on her radar screen. so typical. what else can you do really? the truths I brought up that condemned your assertions as being false are undeniable. so all you have as an option is to say I'm unworthy, and I tirade.; thus, demonstrating that you're very qualified in the art of evaison of the truth.

 

[WagginDog]

you just evaded what i said.

No, I was trying to get you to stop looking at the waves and to focus on Jesus. Philippians 2:2 tells me In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselveS. Humility is more fundamental to our faith than is doctrine and is far easier to prove in the Bible than anything you've been talking about. It is explicitly stated over and over not to judge others about their beliefs. You are destroying yourself by obsessing over the Trinity. My faithful brothers assure me that the Trinity is true and I in love believe them. You assure me that it isn't and I in love believe you. That is obedience that comes from faith in God -- who opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. If I can just focus on being humble, then God himself will give me even more understanding. The same goes for the church. Humility will bring God's grace.

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.

I Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

It means He begat Christ in the 'eternal'. I perceive it to be IN God. HE IS eternal. It's a quality of His being... not a state of time.

Do you get a benefit from thinking about the relationships? I have never sat down and thought about it.

 

[Superfast]

You complain about contradictions yet you quote Matthew?!

there are no contradictions in Matthew.

Com'on.

So you're saying there are contradictions in Marrhew or what?

What if the trinity was a baby step?
And infinity is the speed of light?

What if trinity is an invention of man and not in the bible?

God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”...

...“They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

are you saying we know nothing about the bible? or what?

The beginning of John helps are understanding, but not completely.

Parables, analogys, metaphores, are used to explain spirtual truth that cannot be fully explained like waggindog stated are minds are limited.

the spiritual truth you refer to is not in the bible it is man's invention. man invented the doctrine that Jesus is god, and the doctrine of eternally begotten,the bible nowhere says those things so any analogy of those 2 aforementioned doctrines, is an analogy of man's doctrine and not an analogy of anything god said.
on this point you guys seem incapable of grasping it. man invents a doctrine such as trinity, and you call it spiritual truth that can't be completely understood. You would only have a viable case if God had said those things, but he didn't.

So why destroy your self?

I have learned a great deal about how the trinity doctrine is believed and what it is by debating about it. Some day God may well use the knowledge I have attained here for his benefit. I don't consider that I am destroying myself.

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

so?

Jesus came from Mary, Christ is G_d. (Luke 9:20)

See now, luke 9.20 does not say Christ is God.

(NKJV) Luke 9:20 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God."


it is your interrpetation that luke 9.20 means that christ is god, but it doesn't say that, and probably you don't know that it is your interpretation based on my dealings with other trinitarians and those who believe t hat Jesus is god.

Jesus Christ would not say that he is G_d because he is not proud, he is humble.

that isn't in the bible.

(And IMO another reason was to stay hidden from the archons, and that is why Judas had to hand him over).

you can't say Jesus is god cause he wanted to hide it from us, that's no proof that Jesus is god.

It is written... "Follow me".
&
"They worshipped him" (Luke 24:52).

worship just means to bow down to someone. we are prohibited from worshiping or bowing down to other gods. there is no prohibition to worshiping or bowing down to humans as long as you do not consider the human to be a god. people bow down or worship kings all the time, there is nothing wrong with that.


[SIZE=+0]Deuteronomy 8:19 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]"Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the LORD your God, and follow [SIZE=+1]other gods[/SIZE], and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]Deuteronomy 11:16 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]"Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve [SIZE=+1]other gods[/SIZE] and worship them,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
do you see the words ''other gods" in that verse? No verse says we can only worship god or only bow down to God. On this point trinitarians and those who believe Jesus is god, seem incapable of comprehension.

Chinese emperors would disguise themselves as commoners so they could be among the people they so dearly loved.

No one knew the King was with them.

Especially the new King no one has ever seen.

PeACE.

saying Jesus is God cause he disquised himself is no proof that JEsus is god. you have no scripture saying that.

 

[Superfast]

No, I was trying to get you to stop looking at the waves and to focus on Jesus. Philippians 2:2 tells me In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselveS. Humility is more fundamental to our faith than is doctrine and is far easier to prove in the Bible than anything you've been talking about. It is explicitly stated over and over not to judge others about their beliefs. You are destroying yourself by obsessing over the Trinity. My faithful brothers assure me that the Trinity is true and I in love believe them.

well then you believe your brothers and I'll believe the bible.
fair enough?

You assure me that it isn't and I in love believe you.

so you believe both, great , no wonder you talk like you do.

That is obedience that comes from faith in God -- who opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. If I can just focus on being humble, then God himself will give me even more understanding. The same goes for the church. Humility will bring God's grace.

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.

I Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Do you get a benefit from thinking about the relationships? I have never sat down and thought about it.

all you've done is insinuate that I'm proud and what not and have dealt with nothing I've said. just evaded it. Even if I'm the proudest person on the planet it doesn't disprove anything I've said. HELLO. I can be a complete Jerk but that has nothing to do with proving that eternally begotten is not a contradiction in terms. you've totally evaded everything I've said, and you just go off talking about something else completely. no response from you to anything I've said.

example. you said proofs are unnecessary and a distraction, I responded with try that in a calculus class or a court of law, you ignored it and started talking about something else completely. you can go right down the line with your so called responses and it will allways be the same. Let me show you how a response would be . you should say well caculus and law need proofs but trinity doesn't or something along those lines, then I would respond to that assertion and so on . I wouldn't start talking about the planet pluto after you said calculus and law are different. but that's what you do all of you. that's why you all are capable of holding on to your nonsensical beliefs you never examine them critically.

 

[WagginDog]

all you've done is insinuate that I'm proud and what not and have dealt with nothing I've said. just evaded it. Even if I'm the proudest person on the planet it doesn't disprove anything I've said.

Ok I see what you mean. I don't think you are proud in particular but all this arguing about Trinity is defined as boasting. Its very bad. Yes, some people will try to push Trinity down your throat, and that's wrong. It should not be a matter of fellowship vs. exclusion. I'm not a die-hard trinitarian, and I've never been able to produce it out of the Bible either. I only submit to other believers on this issue. You sound like you're from a protesting background. In a Protestant church, when people say Trinity is a mystery it often is an evasion from discussing matters. Often the minister will feel threatened by difficult questions. I think that's sad, but its not the end of the world.

Let me show you how a response would be . you should say well caculus and law need proofs but trinity doesn't or something along those lines, then I would respond to that assertion and so on .

Calculus starts with axioms and then uses induction to enhance intuition. The textbook holds still for you. The Bible is not like that, because the word of God is living and active. It looks like the ink isn't moving, but while you read it, it is also reading you. You can read it 1000 times and not get something until the 1001st time. By the way, have you ever tried going through all of the prophecies mentioned by the author of Matthew? In what way does the narrative fulfill each prophecy? You may find that its beyond your ability to discover. For example Matthew 2:17 is supposed to fulfill a prophecy in Jeremiah 31. Now how does it logically follow from Jeremiah 31 that a bald king named Herod would kill all of the infants in Bethlehem? In Jeremiah it doesn't even read like a prediction. You may discover the connection between the two passages, but its certainly not an axiom--induction relationship. A does not prove B, however Matthew calls it a fulfillment. Depending upon your ability you may read Jeremiah 31 and conclude that there is absolutely no proof there at all, or maybe you are even a level up and can conclude that it definitely is a proof yet be unable to explain it to other people. Who knows but maybe the Trinity is like that?

 

[Dillinger]

Anybody want to own 'timeless procreation" as an explanation as to what "eternally" begotten means? Anybody have another idea as to what 'eternally begotten" means? Or is this just something you should accept with out trying to figure it out? Come on trinitarians explain 'eternally begotten".


and what about God the Father, isn't he eternally begatting Jesus? And Mary, she has to be eternally conceiving Jesus, but she has to be a virgin, so is she eternally revirginized? How come nobody talks about these doctrines and just talks about 'eternally begotten." it's not fair.

The Trinity is actually fairly simple. God is love and love itself is a triadic relationship. The Lover and the Beloved are united in Love as one being. Each one mutually entails the other.

 

[Superfast]

Ok I see what you mean. I don't think you are proud in particular but all this arguing about Trinity is defined as boasting. Its very bad. Yes, some people will try to push Trinity down your throat, and that's wrong. It should not be a matter of fellowship vs. exclusion. I'm not a die-hard trinitarian, and I've never been able to produce it out of the Bible either. I only submit to other believers on this issue. You sound like you're from a protesting background. In a Protestant church, when people say Trinity is a mystery it often is an evasion from discussing matters. Often the minister will feel threatened by difficult questions. I think that's sad, but its not the end of the world.

We have some agreement here. and some disagreement. for example there are somethings I disagree with that my church teaches (not many but a few) but I keep quiet about it for several reasons, although I have voiced my concerns to the proper individuals, it isn't accepted so I just keep it to my self. If I went to a trinitarian church most probably i would not try and persuade anyone, unless they expressed to me some desire to do so. I have been a memeber of a couple of trinitarian churches and have never believed the trinity ever. Actually the subject never comes up people in trinity churches, at least the ones I've been to, never talk about the trinity, unless you ask them.

Calculus starts with axioms and then uses induction to enhance intuition. The textbook holds still for you. The Bible is not like that, because the word of God is living and active. It looks like the ink isn't moving, but while you read it, it is also reading you. You can read it 1000 times and not get something until the 1001st time.

Prove that the area underneath a curve is 3.76 square feet. what you do is pull out some calculus formual and plug in the values and voila you either prove it or you don't. same with the bible. Some one says Jesus is god, so you pull out the verses that say it and voila you either have proof or you don't. and you don't. no verse says Jesus is God so you have no biblical proof for your doctrine that Jesus is god, all your proof is extra biblical, interpretations, neo platonic thought, irrational thinking, making words mean something they don't , and so forth.

I'm not sure what you're saying with your 1001 thing. I think your saying that you sometimes go though 1000 possible meanings before you finally get the correct meaning the 1001 time. If so, I don't see how that means you don't need proof for a doctrine from the bible.

By the way, have you ever tried going through all of the prophecies mentioned by the author of Matthew? In what way does the narrative fulfill each prophecy? You may find that its beyond your ability to discover. For example Matthew 2:17 is supposed to fulfill a prophecy in Jeremiah 31. Now how does it logically follow from Jeremiah 31 that a bald king named Herod would kill all of the infants in Bethlehem? In Jeremiah it doesn't even read like a prediction. You may discover the connection between the two passages, but its certainly not an axiom--induction relationship. A does not prove B, however Matthew calls it a fulfillment. Depending upon your ability you may read Jeremiah 31 and conclude that there is absolutely no proof there at all, or maybe you are even a level up and can conclude that it definitely is a proof yet be unable to explain it to other people. Who knows but maybe the Trinity is like that?

(Rotherham) Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, seeing that he had been mocked by the wise men, was exceedingly enraged,--and sent and slew all the male children that were in Bethlehem, and in all its bounds, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
Rotherham) Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled, that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying
(Rotherham) Matthew 2:18 A voice, in Ramah, was heard, weeping and great mourning,--Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted,--because they are not.
(Rotherham)Jer 31:15 Thus, saith Yahweh--A voice, in Ramah, is heard, Wailing, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children,--She refuseth to be comforted for her children, For they are not!

typeology. Rachel weeping in Ramah is a type of what Herod caused to happen in his day in Bethlehem. jer. 31.15 was prophecy in type, fulfilled in Herods day. I don't see any problem. Proof? the proof is God said it in his word that Herod fulfilled the prophecy in Jer 31.. what proof is there that Jer. 31.15. is prophecy? the word of god is the proof in mathew 2.17 where it says jer 31.15 was prophecy. If metthew 2.17 didn't exist, and you or I said that jer. 31.15 is prophecy fullfilled by herod's actions in Bethlehem, then twe would have no proof , merely our guess. that's what you have with Jesus is god, just a guess.

 

[Dillinger]

I see it much like Plotinus's teaching of the emanation of Nous from the One. There never was a time when this emanation was not. It's co-eternal with the other.

That's an interesting take. Neoplatonism had a strong influence on early Christianity.