TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay... Is the hypothetical person lawless?

Already answered TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD

Take care

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well said sis, right from the scriptures that we should all believe and follow.

God bless

Amen!

The Book of Revelations, which reveals Jesus Christ makes it clear God's saints keep God's commandments, which means they have never ended which sadly the majority churches teach today, the opposite of scripture and scriptures rightly predicted there is only a remnant (small amount of the original) of God's Chruch.


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs (unclean) and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16).

 

[Leaf473]

Already answered TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD

Take care

I see that you said that eating pork is an abomination, but I didn't see that you said that such a person was lawless or not.

May the peace of the Lord be always with you.

 

[expos4ever]

Okay... Is the hypothetical person lawless?

Do you really expect a straight answer?

Remember: the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

 

[expos4ever]

while Exodus 16:23-29 is about harvesting manna to prepare food from it

But no reasonable person would believe that if it is not OK to harvest manna to prepare food, then it would be ok to pick off grain heads to eat - the activities are very closely related.

You have to deploy this strategy to save your position - you have to invent distinctions that are not relevant.

Jesus healing on the Sabbath and the disciples eating corn directly in the field is not working according to Jesus

Did you make this up?

Where does Jesus say that picking bits of corn to eat is not "work"?

You are in an unenviable spot. We have Jesus admitting that He is working on the Sabbath, at least in this context where healing is the issue. How do explain this:

Now it was a Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is a Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick it up and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward, Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and informed the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on a Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

 

[Leaf473]

Do you really expect a straight answer?

Remember: the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

I think it's like the parable of the sower. The seed falls in different places. Maybe a seed will fall into a crack in a rock.

Maybe the growth of the seed will be limited, but then maybe it will split the rock.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have never disagreed with this and, in fact, I have agreed that James probably believes this. But the fact that James believes this does not mean that the author of 1 John does.

I see so in your view James is in disagreement with John? I do not get this from reading the scriptures as already shown in post # 276 linked. James states that if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we have become transgressors of the law *James 2:10-11. John defines sin as the transgression of the law. Therefore sin is the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4 while Paul says that it is through breaking the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20. So yep sin is the transgression of the law according to three witnesses who are all in agreement according to the scriptures. Therefore James is not in disagreement with John both John, James and Paul are all in agreement together that sin is the transgression of anyone of God's 10 commandments.

Again, the NASB, considered one of the most literal of translations, diagrees - it has this: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. Anyone conversant with basis logic will know that lawlessness is a general concept, and is not tied to a particular set of laws.

There is no consensus from anyone that the NASB is the most literal translation. Many people believe that the KJB is the most literal and accurate translation. Both of these comments (mine included) are not relevant however because not only were three of the Apostles all in agreement that sin is the breaking of anyone of Gods' 10 commandments in James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20 but we also looked at the literal Greek meaning of ἀνομία (anomía | G458) translated into English as transgressed, transgression or lawlessness which are all used in the multiple parallel translation provided to you earlier in post 294 linked that literally mean violation of law; breaking the law, iniquity, wickedness and lawless conduct (breaking the law). So even the Greek meaning of lawlessness or transgression of the law is in disagreement with you here and show that John, James and Paul are all in agreement that breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments is sin.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Romans 7:7

You are not telling the reader the whole story. And you are not faithfully representing the text. Paul says the law gave him (past tense) knowledge of sin - it is your assumption that Paul believes it continues to serve in this role:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know (***past tense) sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said (***past tense), “You shall not covet.

What's more, for reasons I will not repeat for the umpteenth time, the broader context of the whole chapter shows that Paul is saying the Law is now in the rear-view mirror. Consider verse 6:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

I will not tire in reminding readers what you do to force-fit this passage into your view about the Law:

1. you pull a clever ploy whereby you make the case for something that is indeed true - that we have been released from sin and death - while ignoring what verse 6 actually says: that we have also been released from Law.

2. You abuse the fundamental meaning of concepts by rewriting "not serving according to the letter" so taht it reads "not being judged according to the letter".

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here dear friend. I believe the scripture context provided to you that you have left out as shown in my posts to you prove your interpretation of single scriptures taken away from their contexts to come up with an interpretation that God's 10 commandments have been abolished is unbiblical and not supported in the scriptures. The full story has been provided to you by adding back all the scripture contexts you have disregarded that is in disagreement with your interpretation of a single scripture your trying to build your theology around. Therefore it is the whole story with all the scripture context being provided that you have been leaving out that shows why a teaching of lawlessness (no law) is not biblical. If you disagree your welcome to address my earlier posts that are in disagreement with you as everything you have posted here has already been addressed in the linked posts and scripture context provided. The whole story with context in regards to Romans 3:20 that says it is through the law we have a knowledge of sin is provided here and here linked. The whole story with all the scripture context provided for Romans 7:6 is provided here linked. Both posts show through the scripture contexts that an interpretation that God's 10 commandments have been abolished is not biblical.

Take care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Romans 3:20: Readers who have been following along will know that you have artfully dodged my argument as to why Romans 3:20 is in the past.

Funny that. I thought that was what you were doing but I opted to provide the scripture contexts showing why your teachings of lawlessness (no law) is not biblical. I say this because I am still waiting for you to respond and address the content of my posts that provide the scripture you have not been considering. Happy to discuss the scripture detail further with you if you like?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But no reasonable person would believe that if it is not OK to harvest manna to prepare food, then it would be ok to pick off grain heads to eat - the activities are very closely related.

You have to deploy this strategy to save your position - you have to invent distinctions that are not relevant.


Did you make this up?

Where does Jesus say that picking bits of corn to eat is not "work"?

You are in an unenviable spot. We have Jesus admitting that He is working on the Sabbath, at least in this context where healing is the issue. How do explain this:

Now it was a Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is a Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick it up and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward, Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and informed the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on a Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

Already addressed here in a detailed scripture response that provides the context in post # 238 linked. Your welcome to respond and address the scripture content if you like. As posted earlier according to the scriptures Jesus never sinned so did not break any Sabbath laws as there is no law against eating corn directly from the field if your feeling hungry. The scriptures you provided were in regards to working collecting sticks to make a fire and harvesting manna on the Sabbath so not relevant to the disciples eating corn directly from the field because they were not harvesting or working in collecting corn. As shown from the scripture Jesus, healing on the Sabbath and the disciples eating corn directly in the field is not working according to Jesus who is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath. Jesus came to teach us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. If Jesus broke the Sabbath than that would make Jesus a sinner because sin is the transgression of the law and we would all be lost according to your interpretation of the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that Jesus never sinned in *1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21. By claiming that Jesus broke the Sabbath and is a sinner agreeing with the Scribes and the Pharisees is not a teaching that is in agreement with the scriptures that show that Jesus never broke Gods' law and is sinless and came to teach us the true meaning of the Sabbath which is man is not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man and that Jesus is Lord of it (creator) *Mark 2:27-28 and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day *Matthew 12:1-12. We are best to believe the teachings of Jesus here and the Words of God over the teachings and the accusations of the Scribes and Pharisees. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law or no law).

Take Care.

 

[expos4ever]

I think we are beginning to see, at least from some quarters, a strategy for trying to handle the tricky challenge of showing that Jesus fully obeyed the Sabbath.

And I think that, if my characterization as follows is fair, the "explanation" we are being given is highly contrived to put it mildly.

For example, we all know that Jesus defends his disciples when they pick grain:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

We also know that Exodus has this:

Yet it came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Well, this is a poser for our friends who believe Jesus was not endorsing violation of the Sabbath - we have food gathering by the disciples that looks an awful like food gathering that, in Exodus, is declared unlawful.

So what is the response? We get answers like these:

Matthew 12:1-14 is Jesus and His disciples not working on the Sabbath but eating corn directly from the field

Correct, there is no old testament law stating you cannot go into a field when hungry and eat directly from the field. This is different to working on the Sabbath and going into the field to harvest the field and getting paid for working in a field. So how did Jesus break any scriptural law? - He didn't.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Do you see what it is going on? No matter how similar the Exodus scenario is to the Matthew 12 scenario, one can always split hairs and try to show that they differ in some way and therefore conclude that while gathering manna to eat is verboten, picking grainheads to eat is perfectly ok. Right.

Here is the broader point - one can always manufacture reasons why a New Testament activity undertaken by Jesus (and/or his followers) on the Sabbath is not "work". And one can always split hairs and assert that what He (they) did is not exactly the same kind of work as a closely-related Old Testament activity that is declared unlawful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think we are beginning to see, at least from some quarters, a strategy for trying to handle the tricky challenge of showing that Jesus fully obeyed the Sabbath.

And I think that, if my characterization as follows is fair, the "explanation" we are being given is highly contrived to put it mildly.

For example, we all know that Jesus defends his disciples when they pick grain:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

We also know that Exodus has this:

Yet it came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Well, this is a poser for our friends who believe Jesus was not endorsing violation of the Sabbath - we have food gathering by the disciples that looks an awful like food gathering that, in Exodus, is declared unlawful.

So what is the response? We get answers like these:




Methinks he doth protest too much.

Do you see what it is going on? No matter how similar the Exodus scenario is to the Matthew 12 scenario, one can always split hairs and try to show that they differ in some way and therefore conclude that while gathering manna to eat is verboten, picking grainheads to eat is perfectly ok. Right.

Here is the broader point - one can always manufacture reasons why a New Testament activity undertaken by Jesus (and/or his followers) on the Sabbath is not "work". And one can always split hairs and assert that what He (they) did is not exactly the same kind of work as a closely-related Old Testament activity that is declared unlawful.

To be honest I do not see that there was any tricky challenge of showing Jesus did not break the Sabbath. I simply provided the scriptures and their context you left out again, so really did not have to do very much as it is all written in the scriptures that are Gods Words, not my words. To be honest I also do not know what strategy you are talking about here. I do not have any strategy except for prayerfully studying and reading God's Word and looking at the context to the scriptures you are not providing that do not agree with your teachings of lawlessness (without law or no law). I think I have been consistent in doing this in our discussions throughout a number of threads now. Matthew 12:1 [1], At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungered, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. If you want to side with the Scribes and the Pharisees and claim Jesus broke the Sabbath and is a sinner then I will leave that between you and God. The scripture context and the words of Jesus and the Apostles have already been provided to you that are in disagreement with your claims here so we will agree to disagree. If Jesus according to you and the Scribes and the Pharisees broke the Sabbath then Jesus was a sinner and we are all lost. I am not sure if you have thought your argument through very well. According to the scriptures however we read that Jesus was sinless meaning he did not break any of God's law (see 1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21). According to Jesus, His response to the Scribes and the Pharisees who you are siding with is that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath and Jesus is the creator of it *Mark 2:27-28 and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day *Matthew 12:1-12. So we might have to agree to disagree on this one dear friend. You have been provided the scriptures and the context showing that Jesus did not break the Sabbath, go pray and read them and receive Gods' correction through His Words and be blessed.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Amen!

The Book of Revelations, which reveals Jesus Christ makes it clear God's saints keep God's commandments, which means they have never ended which sadly the majority churches teach today, the opposite of scripture and scriptures rightly predicted there is only a remnant (small amount of the original) of God's Chruch.


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs (unclean) and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16).

AMEN! Sis, this alone is very clear. I personally do not understand why others cannot see it.

God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

AMEN! Sis, this alone is very clear. I personally do not understand why others cannot see it.

God bless.

I don’t think its that others can’t see it to be honest, the scripture are very clear and consistent, but sometimes its hard to get past oneself to see the bigger picture. God is pure and His law that He personally wrote with His own finger could not be anything but pure. Sad how many people deny the power of what God did for us by personally writing His holy law so we know how to live for Him.

As my dad always tells me, this gets sorted out soon enough. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

AMEN! Sis, this alone is very clear. I personally do not understand why others cannot see it.

God bless.

I think I can explain why I see it differently, if you are interested in hearing my explanation.

Let me know, if you want

 

[expos4ever]

I don’t think its that others can’t see it to be honest, the scripture are very clear and consistent, but sometimes its hard to get past oneself to see the bigger picture......

Let me remind you of something. When I asked you this another thread:

Simple question: Is it conceivable that the 10 commandments were retired at the cross?

I am not asking what you believe the Bible teaches - I am asking you is it conceivable that God decided to end the 10 commandments at the cross?

.....your reply was this:

Not if you want to follow scripture. The bible teaches we are to keep the commandments of God and that certainly includes the Ten Commandments and what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12

This is not an answer, it is a dodge, an evasion, a dance.

A 14 year old will know that it is, of course, conceivable that the 10 commandments were retired at the cross.

Admitting that your opponents position is at least conceivably correct is the one of the basic tenets of responsible debate. To refuse to do so is to show that one is here to push an agenda, not to seek truth.

 

[Lost4words]

There are no lies. Its all about interpreting what scripture says.

Different 'denominations' interpret scripture differently.

The most important thing is that we all believe in Jesus. Do as Jesus taught.

God is probably looking down and shaking His head in disbelief with all the arguing over semantics that He sees here.

 

[expos4ever]

There are no lies.....

I think we both know what is going on when you see a thread titled "Time to Unlearn the Lies About God's Word".

When you read a poster using any of the following strategies in a thread, you know something is amiss:

1. Use of demonizing language that appeals to the emotions and not to reason. Hence, "lies about God's word" instead of "errors about God's word".

2. Sermonizing - posters who lecture us in the most patronizing of ways. To wit:

You have been provided the scriptures and the context showing that Jesus did not break the Sabbath, go pray and read them and receive Gods' correction through His Words and be blessed

3. Evasion: This is particularly common. When you see a poster repeatedly refusing to answer a clear, concise, meaningful question there is only one conclusion to draw - they have no answer. To be fair, sometimes posters have not had the time to get around to answering something, especially if the other person has drowned them with numerous long posts (see point 4).

4. Massive Posts: This is a form of the famous "Gish Gallop" - drowning readers with long, meandering posts that make it nigh on impossible to understand what is being said, let alone respond. It is almost always the case that what takes 5 long paras can really be expressed in 2 short ones.

5. Repetition: Hammering the reader with the same unsubstantiated claim over and over and over again.

6. Redefining Words: While it is certainly true that some words can take on a range of meanings, be wary of those who take this way too far. For example, because some posters here cannot countenance Paul's assertion that "we no longer serve according to the letter", they conveniently rewrite his statement as "we no longer are judged according to the letter".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There are no lies. Its all about interpreting what scripture says.

Different 'denominations' interpret scripture differently.

The most important thing is that we all believe in Jesus. Do as Jesus taught.

God is probably looking down and shaking His head in disbelief with all the arguing over semantics that He sees here.

The scriptures tells us to reason together and I think God wants us to find the Truth in scripture as there is one absolute Truth, not many. John 4:23-24

Jesus from His own words tells us we should do and teach each other the commandments quoting directly from the Ten.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

I agree we should do as Jesus taught and He taught us the Ten Commandments and kept them as our example, including the Sabbath commandment. John 15:10, Luke 4:16, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, Mark 7:6-8 Matthew 5:17-30

 

[Bob S]

Hogs were among the first domesticated animals. Lets be sure they didn't use them to make footballs from the skin. Israel only was prohibited using pigs in their diets.

Another fact, WE were never under the law of the Sinai covenant. Paul had to be referring to fellow Jews when he used the term WE. Why would any thinking person want to put themselves under old covenant laws that were never intended for them?