Time is an illusion

eleos1954

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My thought is: the theory of the non-existence of time is empirically self-contradictory … so I will go to work Monday morning.

Time can not be applied to the cosmos ... it is continuously expanding ... has no beginning .... has no end .... that is the definition of eternity .... and eternity is defined as being timeless.

Have a great day at work on Monday ..... according to earth time ;o)
 
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sjastro

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Well, suit yourself, but you haven't made a single cogent point.
What a silly petulant response.
After admitting you didn't "deconstruct" my original post the result is your comments are based on willful ignorance.
I make no apologies for my posts being beyond your level of comprehension, instead of arguing over things you don't understand learning about about them would be far more productive.
 
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TheWhat?

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What a silly petulant response.
After admitting you didn't "deconstruct" my original post the result is your comments are based on willful ignorance.
I make no apologies for my posts being beyond your level of comprehension, instead of arguing over things you don't understand learning about about them would be far more productive.

Slander, and a violation of forum rules.

Not to mention the glaring ad hominem. Logic eludes you.
 
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sjastro

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Slander, and a violation of forum rules.

Not to mention the glaring ad hominem. Logic eludes you.
Now that you have gone into emotive mode I suggest you get the terminology right of the things you accuse me of.
First of all its libel not slander, secondly go read up on what ad hominem actually means.
 
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TheWhat?

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Now that you have gone into emotive mode I suggest you get the terminology right of the things you accuse me of.
First of all its libel not slander, secondly go read up on what ad hominem actually means.

Regardless of what the math says, how do you know the future is existent?

Has any relevant observation been performed which shows that some future point in time exists and can be observed, now?

Do you understand what a red herring is?

Here's your second chance to show that your argument isn't one.
 
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SelfSim

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TheWhat? said:
Logic eludes you
...
Regardless of what the math says, ...
Where is the logic in excluding the math?
Math is logic.
TheWhat? said:
how do you know the future is existent?
The math you excluded infers it.

Your question is thus illogical and you have successfully demonstrated that logic eludes you. :rolleyes:
 
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TheWhat?

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Where is the logic in excluding the math?
Math is logic.
The math you excluded infers it.

Your question is thus illogical and you have successfully demonstrated that logic eludes you. :rolleyes:

You understand how science works, right?

That presentism is false, that the future is concrete and real, has not been shown.
 
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TheWhat?

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I also welcome any empirical evidence and necessary logic to disprove that assertion. I've searched far and wide for this evidence and could not find any myself.

But if an answer is given only by a mish-mash of maths suggesting an easy-believism is the road to take, well, that's how debates on this subject get started.
 
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TheWhat?

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Several experiments have been carried out to try to entice future humans, who might invent time travel technology, to come back and demonstrate it to people of the present time. Events such as Perth's Destination Day or MIT's Time Traveler Convention heavily publicized permanent "advertisements" of a meeting time and place for future time travelers to meet. In 1982, a group in Baltimore, Maryland, identifying itself as the Krononauts, hosted an event of this type welcoming visitors from the future. These experiments only stood the possibility of generating a positive result demonstrating the existence of time travel, but have failed so far—no time travelers are known to have attended either event. (src)
 
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sjastro

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Regardless of what the math says, how do you know the future is existent?

Has any relevant observation been performed which shows that some future point in time exists and can be observed, now?

Do you understand what a red herring is?

Here's your second chance to show that your argument isn't one.
Good grief even blind Freddie can see the motivation behind this post.
The first two questions are classic examples of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.
As far as I know the crystal ball hasn’t been invented yet.
The third question in the context with your last sentence clearly shows your intention of looking for a fight.

I have no interest in discussing your pet subject; the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy settles it.
It is not science, off topic and did not challenge anything in my original post regarding the maths predicting space-time exerts a pressure which is supported by experiment, or the quantum mechanical time interval being intimately related to the energy change of the process as observed in the measured lifetimes of excited states.
Science stands or falls by observation and experiment, not by your pet subject.
 
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TheWhat?

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Good grief even blind Freddie can see the motivation behind this post.
The first two questions are classic examples of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.
As far as I know the crystal ball hasn’t been invented yet.
The third question in the context with your last sentence clearly shows your intention of looking for a fight.

I have no interest in discussing your pet subject; the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy settles it.
It is not science, off topic and did not challenge anything in my original post regarding the maths predicting space-time exerts a pressure which is supported by experiment, or the quantum mechanical time interval being intimately related to the energy change of the process as observed in the measured lifetimes of excited states.

Is it too much to ask you to present sincere reason in a discussion rather than a red herring so you can fabricate reason as an ad hominem?

Science stands or falls by observation and experiment, not by your pet subject.

That's the subject, and I didn't create the thread. You have presented none which show that the future exists, now. If that's incorrect, here's my second request: where is the observation that shows that anything in the future exists, now?
 
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TheWhat?

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It is not science, off topic and did not challenge anything in my original post regarding the maths predicting space-time exerts a pressure which is supported by experiment, or the quantum mechanical time interval being intimately related to the energy change of the process as observed in the measured lifetimes of excited states.
Science stands or falls by observation and experiment, not by your pet subject.

And just so that you can't say I'm totally ignoring you, I'm not disregarding Einstein's relativity.

He predicted time dilation, and it was observed.

But still, as I've demonstrated earlier, this can't be interpreted as disproving presentism -- which, in case you're not aware, assumes a stateful universe and is very close to if not descriptive of a paradigm underlying Aristotle's philosophy of time, causality, etc.

But since none of the observations you have mentioned, never mind the fact that you've presented no useful argumentation, can possibly go any further than an observation of time dilation in proving that presentism is false, and thus implying that things future exist now, we're still lacking needed observation to show that the future exists now.
 
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SelfSim

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But still, as I've demonstrated earlier, this can't be interpreted as disproving presentism -- which, in case you're not aware, assumes a stateful universe and is very close to if not descriptive of a paradigm underlying Aristotle's philosophy of time, causality, etc.

But since none of the observations you have mentioned, never mind the fact that you've presented no useful argumentation, can possibly go any further than an observation of time dilation in proving that presentism is false, and thus implying that things future exist now, we're still lacking needed observation to show that the future exists now.
You are demanding disproof of a philosophical position which is a complete waste of anyone's effort. All philosophies do is assume posits .. and to heck with whether or not those posits are objectively testable, or not.

Where science can demonstrate that its assumptions are repeatable (in the present), then the inference that they will be repeatable under the same conditions later on is logically consistent, thus underwriting confidence in its predictions. Philosophies don't provide that advantage.

You also haven't demonstrated any understanding of how humans assign meaning to the term 'exists'. There's a lot of hot air behind your demand, from what I can see.
 
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SelfSim

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But since none of the observations you have mentioned, never mind the fact that you've presented no useful argumentation, can possibly go any further than an observation of time dilation in proving that presentism is false, and thus implying that things future exist now, we're still lacking needed observation to show that the future exists now.
Whether the future exists now or not, is of no interest .. other than to philosophers.
GR and SR however, are models useful for explaining observations within the applicable GR/SR contexts.

Whether anyone draws inferences about existence, (ie: of 'the future), from those models, is a purely personal choice. Whether that choice leads anywhere useful for science, is the dependent on that person's further objective testing/research. There is nothing useful about dismissing possible outcomes of that research/testing, using a philosophical position, before that testing happens.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Physics doesn't define time. The definition isn't buried in the math. It assumes its existence. For a definition of time we need to turn to a philosophy of time.
Sure, whatever. My point is that when physics talks of 'time' it means what clocks measure.

Feel free to clarify where necessary but the basic logic for a perspective using Einstein's relativity as a basis for a philosophy of time appears to be as follows:
  • Time is assumed to be a dimension within a spacetime coordinate system, because it is convenient to do so for one's calculations
  • The math proceeding from the assumptions predicts time dilation
  • We assume that what the math says is correct because time dilation is observable
  • Because we have assumed that what the math says is correct, we assume time must be a dimension in reality, implying that time is traversible in reality, which in turn implies that there exists pasts or futures which can be traveled to (eternalism)
  • The math results in a possible situation wherein a single location in our spacetime coordinate system has at least two distinct time coordinates
Usually, in a multi-dimensional coordinate system, this would be impossible. Consistency is key, especially for a coordinate system.
One error here is that Einsteinian relativity is a model to describe & explain what we observe. Time dilation and other observations are consistent with this model. We know it is not a complete model, even of our own observations, let alone reality, whatever that may be. But in the domain where it does accurately fit our observations, we can explore its implications - it may make predictions that turn out to be inconsistent with what we observe, in which case we'll learn something.

Whether it predicts that a single event can have two time coordinates, I seriously doubt, but I would like to see the maths behind that claim.

Special Relativity has two postulates, the first being "the laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames of reference". If what it is that would be perceived as the passage of time as governed by the laws of physics is occurring more slowly in one inertial frame of reference than another, and those laws of physics are invariant within each inertial frame of reference, this implies a transformation of certain functions responsible for what it is that we perceive as the passage of time.
The important concept you didn't mention here is relativity - time runs more slowly in an inertial frame moving relative to an observer. All observers see their proper time passing at one second per second, so they always perceive the passage of time to be the same (ignoring perceptual distortions).

I don't think Einstein was so quick to jump onto an eternalism bandwagon, though I'm sure he must have thought about it.
Who knows? perhaps his comment that time is an illusion was referring to that idea. The relativity of simultaneity seems to imply that events in your past and in your future can be real for other observers, and events in their past and their future can be real for yet other observers.

See my post #111 for Godel's response to his solutions for Einstein's equations. A solution doesn't imply reality. Anyone can cook up any system we want and there is no guarantee that it will be congruous with the world of the senses.
Sure; as above, these are models based on observation. We know that Einstein's model has a limited domain of applicability, and we know that it's extraordinarily accurate within that domain, but it's quite possible that none of the ways of obtaining closed time-like curves are actually possible - perhaps, for example, because they don't account for the effects of quantum mechanics. But if they are possible, they're almost certainly not practical for anything less than a Kardashev type III civilization, maybe not even that.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Just wondering, but couldn't the big bang be used as a universal reference point? Such that any sufficiently advanced being, anywhere in the universe, would agree that the BB occurred 13.8 bya.
I don't know - it might depend on their inertial world-line and/or how they measure the age of the universe.
 
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TheWhat?

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You are demanding disproof of a philosophical position which is a complete waste of anyone's effort. All philosophies do is assume posits .. and to heck with whether or not those posits are objectively testable, or not.

Where science can demonstrate that its assumptions are repeatable (in the present), then the inference that they will be repeatable under the same conditions later on is logically consistent, thus underwriting confidence in its predictions. Philosophies don't provide that advantage.

What do you think science is grounded on? Or are you presuming science is bedrock?

You also haven't demonstrated any understanding of how humans assign meaning to the term 'exists'. There's a lot of hot air behind your demand, from what I can see.

This is just ridiculous, but now that you mention it, neither have you.
 
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TheWhat?

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Whether the future exists now or not, is of no interest .. other than to philosophers.

It's a philosophical question that is relevant to both science and philosophy. On some subjects, sometimes, we have to dig deeply to get to the truth.

GR and SR however, are models useful for explaining observations within the applicable GR/SR contexts.

That's agreeable.

Whether anyone draws inferences about existence, (ie: of 'the future), from those models, is a purely personal choice. Whether that choice leads anywhere useful for science, is the dependent on that person's further objective testing/research. There is nothing useful about dismissing possible outcomes of that research/testing, using a philosophical position, before that testing happens.

Granted, the world isn't going to stop because few people have bothered to check their assumptions, but it's relevant when assumptions lead to the shaping of culture, which relates to popular opinion, social interactions and discourse. At the least, you have to admit, we have quite a bit of fan fiction surrounding time travel, and it's not that I'm worried about kids getting the wrong idea, it's that people are writing books promulgating science-inspired philosophies for our lives. It shapes our lives one way or another, so, sometimes, the issues that surface in our lives because of unintentional cultural consequences, lead us down various rabbit holes such as this one.
 
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TheWhat?

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You are demanding disproof of a philosophical position which is a complete waste of anyone's effort.

It's relevant to the subject, it's not unfalsifiable, and if you don't like that it's related to philosophy, simply make a hypothesis related to it.

One observation would do: be it a real, observable bridge to a point in time further along the time direction, or maybe even quantum particles which are verifiably popping in and out of existence along the time direction. Something to that effect would falsify presentism.

And for kicks, one can consider it the null hypothesis of a logical alternative.
 
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SelfSim

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What do you think science is grounded on?
Consistency, predictability and practical usefulness for all healthy minded humans.
TheWhat? said:
Or are you presuming science is bedrock?
The scientific method is terrible except for all the other ways of achieving its (above mentioned) goals.
TheWhat? said:
This is just ridiculous, but now that you mention it, neither have you.
Don't get me started .. I have an independently verifiable track-record at CFs when it comes to addressing how we go about giving the term 'exists' its meaning.
 
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