Time in deep space

[dad]

You're just babbling now. Time is not required in the Pythagorean theorem. Or a parallax calculation.

wiki---
"In mathematics, the Pythagorean theorem, also known as Pythagoras' theorem, is a fundamental relation in Euclidean geometry among the three sides of a right triangle...

All lines in a triangle we draw represent something equal. Whenstatement we try to use lines to represent time as well as space in areas that may not have the same time, that is not known to be equal. That is simply a statement that whoever uses the lines wants them to represent the same thing. In the case of parallax measure, that thing is distance only as perceived in the space we are familiar with. That does not divest space and time in the solar system just because you draw a few lines on paper to a star.

Your primary complaint is that we have to assume time is 'the same' out there. But that assumption is not required for a parallax calculation. Because time is not involved. It's a mathematical truth, as much as 2 + 2 is 4.

Time IS involved in life on earth if you notice? Science measure time here in fine detail! Try to take time out of your life! try to take time out of a trip to the moon? Time does exist here in the world and even the solar system and area. We measure that. We know that. Space and time are woven together. How can you take a person, or a country or hundreds of millions of miles of space that earth moves in 6 months....and divest it of all and any time? Show us how you do that.

If you remember your high school geometry, you'll recall that "angle side angle" is one of the ways of proving 2 triangles congruent (i.e exactly the same shape). In parallax, we measure the baseline (that's a side) and we point at the star at either end of the baseline.

Geometry, when representing space and time is only valid in the space and time it is known to be in. Fishbowl geometry cannot represent the universe.

Your rejection of knowledge doesn't start from Darwin and Einstein, but Euclid.

Geometry is great. It simply does not apply when we draw the lines out to unknown space and time when ONE of the lines used id FROM the fishbowl!

 

[essentialsaltes]

Whenstatement we try to use lines to represent time as well as space

I'm not doing that. Mine is an ordinary old triangle made up of line segments representing lengths in space. Just like from kindergarten. You know... a triangle. You're the only one trying to drag time into things.

just because you draw a few lines on paper to a star.

The lines aren't on paper. They go straight to the star. Simple question:

Can you point to a star?

Of course you can. The line extending down your arm that ends in the star is not a line on paper. It's a line in space connecting two points of our triangle.

Time IS involved in life on earth if you notice?

Sure, if I have to bake a cake, measuring time will be 'part of the equation'. But parallax measurements do not require time in the equation. It's a mathematical inevitability. If a square has sides of length 4, then its area is 16. Nothing can alter it.

try to take time out of a trip to the moon?

Try to put time into the calculation of the area of the square. The answer will still be 16, because time is not needed and has no effect on the total.

 

[SelfSim]

... Science doesn't realize anything about what time is only how it works and is measured and conceived. Now when talking about what time is in deep space, forget about it! You seem to think we can simply add it to maps or equations here as some mysterious dimension and call it a fundamental part of things...and then go on to declare all the universe the same for NO reason! Then you have the audacity to claim it is science and known?

1) Look, everything in science is an objectively testable model, including its definitions.
2) Beyond science, everything we perceive, once described using language, becomes a model which may be objectively testable (science), or not objectively testable (beliefs).
There is abundant objective evidence in support of both (1) and (2) above. We can go thru generating all that evidence if you like, (you and I have done this before), but it is incredibly tedious .. you gave up last time.

Your pressing to convince yourself that time is something beyond a testable model (or measurement) is a case of special pleading because there is no objective evidence or test which can produce results that will convince a scientific thinker that it exists independently of our thought processes. I am thus fully justified for stating that it is purely a belief you hold where a belief is defined as: 'A notion held as being true for any reason'.

The model of time is needed by our brains to make sense of what we perceive. If we perceive something a long way from us, we still need that model of time to make sense of that perception. Without that model, all we'd perceive would be gibberish. We thus take that model (or concept) of time with us wherever our minds go .. and it must be consistent in order to make consistent sense of anything. I have shown you the test in this thread, ie: You cannot remove the sense of time in anything you write or say without losing making sense.

You may not like being 'trapped' (held captive) by the way your mind works .. but there's nothing I, nor anyone else, can do to change that. Get over it .. Live with it .. Have fun in spite of it.

 

[SelfSim]

I'm not doing that. Mine is an ordinary old triangle made up of line segments representing lengths in space. Just like from kindergarten. You know... a triangle. You're the only one trying to drag time into things.
...

Nice efforts .. thank you for your persistence .. (I for one, appreciate it).
Tis a simple point you're making .. (I wish 'time' was, too).
Cheers

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Who used His finger to write the 10 commandments on stone tablets? Who wrote on the wall for Daniel? Who fulfilled all that was written? Who promised to send His words into the minds and hearts of people so they could transcribe what He wrote there onto paper? Who spoke from heaven directly to various men, who were told to write these things? He physically wrote some of it and the rest He wrote defacto by using proxies.

Genesis 1 as written by men:
1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

As written by God:
1.In the beginning I created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the My Spirit moved upon the face of the waters.

Tell me, who wrote the bible?

 

[dad]

I'm not doing that. Mine is an ordinary old triangle made up of line segments representing lengths in space. Just like from kindergarten. You know... a triangle. You're the only one trying to drag time into things.

Look at this:

See the twp blue dots? That is what one line in the triangle comes from. A big chunk of the solar system. Rather than focus on a little paper with a triangle on it, think of this swath of our solar system. Now do you think time exists here? Do you think you can decree that time cannot exist any more in that area?! How about this, take your line to represent JUST time and no space! Think you can do that? Ha. No. It is a package deal, they are woven together.

The lines aren't on paper. They go straight to the star. Simple question:

Now the other lines we tack onto this time and space from HERE line...represent time and space all the way to the star!!

Sure, if I have to bake a cake, measuring time will be 'part of the equation'. But parallax measurements do not require time in the equation. It's a mathematical inevitability. If a square has sides of length 4, then its area is 16. Nothing can alter it.

When a line represents UNKNOWN time and space then it really would not equate to your base line UNLESS time and space were unaltered all the way!

Even is the space was right (which is a whole other thread as to how time may affect space) that says nothing of how time is out there. All we know is the space and time relationship here.

 

[dad]

Genesis 1 as written by men:
1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

As written by God:
1.In the beginning I created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the My Spirit moved upon the face of the waters.

Tell me, who wrote the bible?

God. By proxy and sometimes talking or writing directly.

 

[dad]

1) Look, everything in science is an objectively testable model, including its definitions.

Then show us a test to test what time is like in the unknown deep space? Get serious.

2) Beyond science, everything we perceive, once described using language, becomes a model which may be objectively testable (science), or not objectively testable (beliefs).

Time is deep space being like time here has no test. Name it?

There is abundant objective evidence in support of both (1) and (2) above. We can go thru generating all that evidence if you like, (you and I have done this before), but it is incredibly tedious .. you gave up last time.

No. You can't. I don't think you understand the basics. Otherwise you would be able to post clearly what this test is. GR does not tell us what time is like in far space.

Your pressing to convince yourself that time is something beyond a testable model (or measurement) is a case of special pleading because there is no objective evidence or test which can produce results that will convince a scientific thinker that it exists independently of our thought processes.

Nothing from far space is a testable measure here in the solar system. Any test would be here IN our time and space.

I am thus fully justified for stating that it is purely a belief you hold where a belief is defined as: 'A notion held as being true for any reason'.

The issue is whether man can know what time in deep space is like compared to here. Unless you demonstrate you can do that, it is not I that have beliefs. I have the observation that man does not know.

The model of time is needed by our brains to make sense of what we perceive

Forget your brain. Time marches on if your brain was on earth or not! Time is not dependent on your brain, my brain or any other brain.

. If we perceive something a long way from us, we still need that model of time to make sense of that perception.

That is something involving mental health or mental gymnastics or whatever. Time is not an inbred concept.

Without that model, all we'd perceive would be gibberish. We thus take that model (or concept) of time with us wherever our minds go

I think Adam knew very well what a year or day was.

.. and it must be consistent in order to make consistent sense of anything. I have shown you the test in this thread, ie: You cannot remove the sense of time in anything you write or say without losing making sense.

I am not asking you to remove time, you are asking me! For example in parallax you want me to pretend only space is involved in the base line.

You may not like being 'trapped' (held captive) by the way your mind works .. but there's nothing I, nor anyone else, can do to change that. Get over it .. Live with it .. Have fun in spite of it.

If the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed.

 

[essentialsaltes]

See the twp blue dots?

Yes, two points determine a line.

That is what one line in the triangle comes from.

QED

How about this, take your line to represent JUST time and no space!

It's not that I don't want to do that, I can't do that. It's a triangle for crying out loud. It's a shape in space. Made of lines in space. You know what a triangle is. I can hold a ruler up to any of the three sides. I cannot hold a stopwatch up to any of the sides. Each side is a length. In space.

 

[dad]

Yes, two points determine a line.



QED



It's not that I don't want to do that, I can't do that. It's a triangle for crying out loud. It's a shape in space. Made of lines in space. You know what a triangle is. I can hold a ruler up to any of the three sides. I cannot hold a stopwatch up to any of the sides. Each side is a length. In space.

Letters and lines can represent whatever we like actually. You would like a swath of the solar system in a line representing only space. Now if there was no time you might get away with it!

 

[sjastro]

Letters and lines can represent whatever we like actually. You would like a swath of the solar system in a line representing only space. Now if there was no time you might get away with it!

I'm not familiar with this type of physics so here is a question.
A surveyor uses triangulation to calculate the distance of a tree. He starts the measurements on April 1st and takes 327.8775432457 seconds according to his atomic clock which is in the surveyor's toolkit since one cannot ignore time.
He finds the tree is 54.34 metres away.
He decides to repeat the measurements from the same location but takes 548.4743286524 seconds as this time he was interrupted by a toilet break.
How far away is the tree now given it has taken him a lot longer to make the measurements?

 

[dad]

I'm not familiar with this type of physics so here is a question.
A surveyor uses triangulation to calculate the distance of a tree. He starts the measurements on April 1st and takes 327.8775432457 seconds according to his atomic clock which is in the surveyor's toolkit since one cannot ignore time.
He finds the tree is 54.34 metres away.
He decides to repeat the measurements from the same location but takes 548.4743286524 seconds as this time he was interrupted by a toilet break.
How far away is the tree now given it has taken him a lot longer to make the measurements?

I will go with whatever the surveyor says. We are in the fishbowl after all where time is not very important in distance measurements. All space and time here is more or less the same. So we can draw lines representing distance because the same time exists in the space! In deep space we do not know time exists the same so we cannot do this.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Letters and lines can represent whatever we like actually.

I've told you what they represent. It's a space triangle made up of distances in a parallax measurement. You don't get to substitute one of your crazy time triangles for the one I'm discussing.

 

[A_Thinker]

Since all light from stars is seen only here near earth and IN our time and space, this does not tell us about what time may be like out here. Determining distances depends on knowing that time does exist all across this universe the same as it does here. So unless we can know time does exist we cannot know distances in cosmology.

Parallax also involves time because if take a slice of this solar system maybe hundreds of millions of miles across, where we know time exists, it cannot be considered ONLY space. It includes time. So this cannot be used as a trigonometric measure in a triangle to the stars .

Yet everyday I see distances offered as fact.

example:

"
Telescope have found an unexpected thin disk of material furiously whirling around a supermassive black hole at the heart of the magnificent spiral galaxy NGC 3147, located 130 million light-years away.

The conundrum is that the disk shouldn't be there, based on current astronomical theories."

Hubble uncovers black hole that shouldn't exist

discuss

There is basis for the assumption that time works differently in the vast reaches of the universe than it does here. The preponderance of physical observation demonstrates that times works with negligible differences across all of the planes of our existence.

The much better assumption is that time works essentially the same everywhere ...

 

[dad]

I've told you what they represent. It's a space triangle made up of distances in a parallax measurement. You don't get to substitute one of your crazy time triangles for the one I'm discussing.

You do not get to tell anyone that a line half way through the solar system represents only space. (and that space all over the universe is the same)

 

[dad]

There is basis for the assumption that time works differently in the vast reaches of the universe than it does here. The preponderance of physical observation demonstrates that times works with negligible differences across all of the planes of our existence.

No one is arguing how time works IN the fishbowl!

The much better assumption is that time works essentially the same everywhere ...

I find it better to tread carefully with the unknown rather than leap to conclusions. Especially when jumping to ignorance based conclusions contradicts the flow of Scripture on where it all came from.

 

[A_Thinker]

I find it better to tread carefully with the unknown rather than leap to conclusions. Especially when jumping to ignorance based conclusions contradicts the flow of Scripture on where it all came from.

Is there something Biblical which suggests that time works differently in different parts of the physical universe ?

 

[Yttrium]

I've told you what they represent. It's a space triangle made up of distances in a parallax measurement. You don't get to substitute one of your crazy time triangles for the one I'm discussing.

dad's universe is made up of Lovecraftian, non-Euclidian geometries. I can imagine Azathoth in the center of it all...

 

[essentialsaltes]

You do not get to tell anyone that a line half way through the solar system represents only space.

Certainly I can, because I understand what shapes are. I know how to get from point A to point B -- by connecting them with a line. That's how we measure distances.

 

[dad]

Is there something Biblical which suggests that time works differently in different parts of the physical universe ?

There is the creation of stars which were made for time/seasons for man. There is the fact we know approx when Adam lived and he was made the same week as the universe. There is the fact that God lives beyond the universe in the heaven of heavens and is not under time. The light from stars, then could not have taken great time to get here.